Bricasti M1 > M5 > M12: Network Player - Member REVIEW - w/OEM Response from Brian Zolner President Bricasti

[Evo-No-Revo]

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

If you have audio device that has optical S/PDIF input, you can use Google's Chromecast Audio for Spotify (and lot of other stuff)...

 

I thought about Chromecast Audio but didn't pursue it.  Maybe I will pick one up today and see how it sounds before I send it back. 

 

I still want to know if you can network bridge out of a Mac Mini into the M5?  And if there is an advantage to that with the M5?

 

[Evo-No-Revo]

10 minutes ago, firedog said:

Did you try LMS? It can recognize  UPnP/DLNA players (such as the M5) with a plugin and also has a Spotify plugin so you can play Spotify to the  UPnP/DLNA player. I haven't done it but it should work, although it will take a little work to setup.

 

Logitech Media Server?  I have not.  I am not even sure what it is though I have certainly heard it mentioned a lot.  I will have to check into this tonight. 

I still have the M5 in my possession.

 

Just looked at it.  That might work for me. 

 

[Miska]

37 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

I thought about Chromecast Audio but didn't pursue it.  Maybe I will pick one up today and see how it sounds before I send it back. 

 

It doesn't "sound" since it just plays the bits through digital output...

 

[One and a half]

4 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

I can't seem to figure out any way to get Spotify to the M5 other than rooting my Android tablet.  I have taken a look at that and I won't be going down that path. 

 

I am not giving up the ability to use Spotify.  Spotify's radio function kills Tidal.  It is the best steaming product I have found for finding new music.  I then send my new finds in a playlist from Spotify to Roon/Tidal.

 

As much as I like the sound and build quality of the M5 I am sending it back.  It is on loan now from DaVinci Media.  I mistakenly said Audio Archon earlier in this thread. 

 

The M5 is a very, very nice product.  If the M5 did Spotify I would definitely be keeping it. 

 

 

Spotify, let alone any other commercial streaming service wasn't on the spec sheet for the M5, the M5 is meant for local LAN use. One way around is to use Jriver as a default sound card, and route DLNA traffic through that process. The M5 is detected as a network renderer on Jriver. Worked for me OK, but SQ wise, Spotify is pretty lame compared with local ripped files and or (some) hires downloads. Roon is certified to work with the M5.

[Evo-No-Revo]

As I said, I use Spotify for finding new music and casual listening which is 90% of my music listening.  Obviously I don't use Spotify for critical listening.  My listening area is basically in the kitchen/workout area.  I love Spotify for that.

 

It is clear that Spotify wasn't listed.  I still wanted to get the M5 shipped for a demo listen.  It is a fantastic piece of kit. 

 

But it has become very clear to me that I want a audio computer and that is all I will be satisfied with.  Renderers are just not my thing.  I have tried a few.  I want full flexibility.

 

I am sending the M5 back tomorrow and starting on a custom low power build!  Another one.....

[thyname]

On 3/14/2018 at 7:52 PM, Miska said:

 

Both of these have the typical problem, you don't get the galvanic isolation ethernet would normally provide with these cables... So you bring one of the main problems of USB back with these.

 

I use standard UTP cables, you recognize from fully plastic connectors:

 

How about Wireworld Starlight Cat8 cables?

 

http://www.wireworldcable.com/hi-res-digital-audio-cables.html#ethernet

 

Do they have the same problem you mention in this thread?

[Miska]

5 hours ago, thyname said:

How about Wireworld Starlight Cat8 cables?

 

http://www.wireworldcable.com/hi-res-digital-audio-cables.html#ethernet

 

Do they have the same problem you mention in this thread?

 

Yes... So far all audiophile ethernet cables I've seen have the same problem. Normal $10 CAT6 UTP cables used in normal office networks work just fine and don't cost practically anything.

 

[One and a half]

M5 Network Player review

 

During March I bought the M5 to hopefully replace USB chain that runs to 25m and consists of 2 x ifi Micro uSB3.0 and an Icron 2214 USB extender. 

 

Adaption of the M5

There's an Ethernet port behind the audio rack, so cabling from the M5 to the DAC would be nice and short. There are two Netgear GS108 between the M5 and the router.
Setting of which output to use is determined by the user, and programmable from any browser to the 8080 port of the M5's IP address.  The M5 is Roon certified and makes this simple (once you know it's there), there's a little blue button to configure the M5 and a browser opens up to program only three items.

These are: 
Select the output to USB or AES3/Coax, Switch DoP on and off, Adjust the volume. There are the usual settings in Roon, but more on this a little later with DSD configuration. Network handshaking takes a few minutes, the M5 obtains an IP address from the router. It is *NOT* possible to set the IP address of the M5 manually.

 

In use - Take 1

First time of out of the box, USB was selected to Playback Designs MPD-3 USB input with a Nordost Blue Heaven 1m. This DAC can accept DSD as native or DoP on the USB input only. Choppy output on redbook and silence on DSD. The DAC reads weird signals, and don't correspond the the incoming signal from Roon. Not a good start. Let's try the AES3 output only. Redbook at all fs to 192 works OK. The sound-stage is not that great, bit of a hole in the middle.
Now, when the M5 is set to AES3 output, the DoP on/off allows you to set DSD outputs, but the MPD-3 doesn't accept DoP on AES3. When DoP is set to off (disable), there are no DSD settings in Roon any more, vanished. The only way around this is to enable DSP to convert DSD to PCM with a hit on CPU activity. This jumped from 1-3% with USB out to 20-30%, yowsers. The M5 is capable of accepting to DSD128, it's obviously not with this DAC.

 

In use - Take 2

Tried the M5 with three other DACs on USB output, Accuphase DAC-50, Grace Design M5, and a Korg DS-DAC-10. The KORG didn't work at all, no handshake, even for Redbook. The DAC-50 and the m920 worked OK, DSD128 all was good since they are native DoP types, but these DACs aren't in the same league as the MPD-3.

 

In use - Take 3
The hole in the middle on AES3 was a problem that ought to have further investigation. The M5 was operated for 96 hours straight and the result with the MPD-3 markedly improved. The hole in the middle vanished and there was a very nice sound-stage now. Roon can play multiple zones at the same time, so arranged playback of the same track for the USB chain and the M5 with AES3. Switching back and forth, the USB chain into the DAC's USB input had the upper edge for those very, very fine details, but hey, the differences were very small indeed. For this scenario, the M5 was installed with one jump to the router and using 25m of CAT5e for the AES3. I moved the M5 closer to the DAC and used a short Canare/Neutrik AES3 cable, the performance was not noticeably different at all, which bodes well for using CAT5e for AES3, it does work!
 
In use - a decision
AES3 was OK for PCM material, DSD playback was still another problem in that the specifications state that DSD is only playable via USB. This just didn't work for the MPD-3. The vendor was quite supportive and contributed valuable dialog over a week or more, but could not offer a re-write of the internal software, which would have fixed the interface issue with the MPD-3. Newer software for the MPD-3 is not available, it's a discontinued product. No direct input was received from Bricasti, other than to deal with the vendor, policy for non-USA I guess. 

The M5 was returned to the vendor, since it could not fulfill the intended use (of playing DSD to 128 DoP via USB).

 

Conclusion

The hard lesson learned is that for network renderers that output USB, no guarantees exist that playback will handshake with all DACs. Once the handshake occurs, there's the ultimate quality of the renderer which limits the SQ. For the M5, the AES3 output works very well once burned in, and the construction addresses the one box approach which I appreciated and one of the reasons for purchasing. If it played DSD as specified, it would have been a keeper.

 

[firedog]

Interesting that in the end you liked the sound of it. It doesn't help you, but one of the things I tried to verify before I bought my device and USB input is that it would play with Windows, MAC, and LInux.

If a device is driverless for MAC and Linux, it should work with pretty much any renderer (most are Linux). This  is not a feature that was common even a few years ago, hence your issue.

[One and a half]

On 4/15/2018 at 1:21 AM, firedog said:

Interesting that in the end you liked the sound of it. It doesn't help you, but one of the things I tried to verify before I bought my device and USB input is that it would play with Windows, MAC, and LInux.

If a device is driverless for MAC and Linux, it should work with pretty much any renderer (most are Linux). This  is not a feature that was common even a few years ago, hence your issue.

The sound was good through AES3, but the M5 could not decode or accept DSD from Roon, it may have been better on USB, I won't have any idea now.

 

As for verification, there's no fine print on the website that advises using this device may not work with your equipment. Talk to us about it. Nothing, nada, zip zero. It should not be the buyer to launch an investigation of a component on compatibility, that went out a long time ago and doesn't cut any more. You know even if I did receive an answer, how do I really know it's not a "yes, yes sir it will work response".

[barrows]

On 4/14/2018 at 9:21 AM, firedog said:

Interesting that in the end you liked the sound of it. It doesn't help you, but one of the things I tried to verify before I bought my device and USB input is that it would play with Windows, MAC, and LInux.

If a device is driverless for MAC and Linux, it should work with pretty much any renderer (most are Linux). This  is not a feature that was common even a few years ago, hence your issue.

Some DACs have "unusual" code running in their USB receivers, and while they may work driverless on Mac, there are some code choices which just do not play well with linux for USB audio.  Unfortunately the manufacturer of the Renderer has no way to confirm perfect operation with every DAC.  The DAC manufacturer can verify this when they  make their USB interface, but not all DAC manufacturers do this (considering how many Renderers and Servers there are which run linux variants, I would think it would be an advantage for a DAC manufacturer to make sure their interface works well with linux variants...).

Unfortunately it is impossible for the manufacturer of a Renderer to guarantee universal compatibility with all DACs.  The only thing a Renderer manufacturer can do is to make software updates when they discover non-compatible DACs to make them compatible (this is usually possible, but not always).

So, while it is unfortunate that Renderers/Servers are not always going to be compatible with every DAC, this is not the fault of the Renderer manufacturer.

[cjf]

I've got the M5 also and am using it primarily with a Benchmark DAC3DX via AES. I use ROON 99% of the time. Streaming all resolutions up to DSD64 works flawlessly for me while using AES Out from the M5 to the DAC3. I've not tried the USB Port.

 

I agree that some DAC's do funky stuff via USB. My Lynx Hilo being one of them. It doesn't work at all with Linux. It shows up as a USB device when plugged in but thats the end of it. Works flawlessly with its supplied ASIO driver in Windows though.

 

Any DAC that doesn't work with Linux via USB is almost a paper weight these days IMO. It's the first thing I try when I take a DAC home to try it out. No Work...No Sale . Though I made an exception in the case of the Hilo because it's main use for me is with Windows/DSP/Room Correction..etc. I don't use it for listening really

[One and a half]

@barrows, thanks for the perspective from the renderer manufacturer, since Bricasti may not. For consumer confidence, it would be fair to provide a "we tested our product with" and either list DACs, or their interfaces, like XMOS, Centrance models abc. At least there's a guide. IIRC Aurender or Auralic provided a tested with this DAC list, more Aurender come to think of it. I recall a show stopper with an Aurender and Berkeley Design USB, initially it was just a no-go, after a while Aurender updated firmware and the owners had a system running again. 

 

This is a call/request/plea to Bricasti  : If Bricasti can update the firmware in the M5 to accept and play DSD to the 'ancient' Playback Designs MPD-3 via USB, then I will buy the M5 (again). The reason the plea is here, is outside USA, there's no direct contact with the factory, it's by dealer only. 

[asdf1000]

26 minutes ago, One and a half said:

This is a call/request/plea to Bricasti  : If Bricasti can update the firmware in the M5 to accept and play DSD to the 'ancient' Playback Designs MPD-3 via USB, then I will buy the M5 (again). The reason the plea is here, is outside USA, there's no direct contact with the factory, it's by dealer only. 

 

Hey One and a Half.

 

No luck even with [email protected] ?

 

Or do they just reply by asking you to go through AU dealer?

 

[One and a half]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hey One and a Half.

 

No luck even with [email protected] ?

 

Or do they just reply by asking you to go through AU dealer?

 

Yup, exactly that.

[asdf1000]

12 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Yup, exactly that.

 

Jeeze, that's poor isn't it. Pretend you're in the US? 

 

That's a really old way of doing things. As an example, PS Audio are an old company but their customer service is very much 2018. They're happy for any customer around the world to call or email them directly if they have any issues. 

 

[One and a half]

3 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Jeeze, that's poor isn't it. Pretend you're in the US? 

 

That's a really old way of doing things. As an example, PS Audio are an old company but their customer service is very much 2018. They're happy for any customer around the world to call or email them directly if they have any issues. 

 

Yes, I don't set their policy. Let's see what happens.

[fsmithjack]

3 hours ago, One and a half said:

@barrows, thanks for the perspective 

 

This is a call/request/plea to Bricasti  : If Bricasti can update the firmware in the M5 to accept and play DSD to the 'ancient' Playback Designs MPD-3 via USB, then I will buy the M5 (again). The reason the plea is here, is outside USA, there's no direct contact with the factory, it's by dealer only. 

 

Sorry guys - this is on me!

 

I’ve recenly started a new job and been working 6 days a week and nights and my wife is 5 months pregnant so I haven’t been able to get on here nearly as much as I’d like or should but that will change as I’ll try to be more responsive.

 

Definitely will when things slow up a bit. 

 

Usually I’m glad and able to get you quick, candid responses direct from Bricasti for all things Bricasti. Trust me they care a great deal about you guys and this Thread. Brian will invest his time and efforts into anything we need if he can. 

 

I typically not only can / will get any and info for all things Bricasti but there is a legit willingness from the Bricasti camp to provide us everything we need to solve most any request whenever possible.

 

Brian designs them, builds them and updates them by hand and he is all about his customers.

 

Aurender, Auralic, Lumin, SOtM, Berkeley, Lampazator and the like are all about releasing the next product. Building a great product and then down the road coming out with an all new product model or item. It’s not just them it’s just the way most all companies are but not Bricasti.

 

With Bricasti, they come out with a product and keep it forever they just keep upgrading and evolving it forever. This approach is all about their buyers / owners / followers more than any other high end Audio product Out there.

 

if you need it and they can provide it then it will happen. 

 

Does that mean Brian can spend 6 months designing, testing and offering a special update that only works for one persons system? Of course not. Everything is relative and anyone that did that would go out of business in a short time.

 

Also, this is a very aggressively priced product for the outstanding sound and build this product offers so it can’t possibly do everything for everyone but it does an awful lot and sounds so good. 

 

Don’t forget - this is not a larger company like PS Audio. They make world class products, by hand and their gear, each unit is legit high end - top shelf. No high volume, cheaper made products here. Just premium stuff. 

 

Brians, willingness to invest his time to help us is always first rate - it’s my response that has lacked lately as it’s my thread so sorry for that - been so busy. 

 

I will get with Brian on this request and get back to you. 

 

Thanks folks

[firedog]

5 hours ago, One and a half said:

This is a call/request/plea to Bricasti  : If Bricasti can update the firmware in the M5 to accept and play DSD to the 'ancient' Playback Designs MPD-3 via USB, then I will buy the M5 (again). The reason the plea is here, is outside USA, there's no direct contact with the factory, it's by dealer only. 

 

I think if you write their info@bricasti address, you are likely to get an answer from Brian, the CEO. I have, and I’m not in the US-as long as you are writing on a subject like this and not for sales.

But I think you sort of have it  backward. The M5 plays with plenty of DACs. The DAC needs to be able to work with a Linux source, that’s the issue. It’s a firmware/driver issue of the DAC hardware. There are other DACs with the issue, such as the popular  T+A 8 DSD.  It has (had) USB hardware that needs a firmware rewrite in order to work with a Linux renderer/server. Most newer DACs seem to avoid the issue, as DAC manufacturers have figured out in the last couple of years that customers are using Linux based sources. For older DACs not so much. AFAIK, a solution from the Bricasti side for you would mean Bricasti writing a solution just for your DAC - if it is even possible, which it may not be. 

[Drewligarchy]

Hi All -

 

I recently purchased a demo Bricasti M1 from a dealer here in NYC, and after getting it dialed in - I really love the sound. I'm running it with two headphone based setups:

 

Auralic Aries > M1 (balanced) > KGSSHV Carbon > Stax 009

Auralic Aries> M1 (single ended) > Violectric V281 > Audeze LCD4

 

This unit is currently running firmware 1.17, it has USB - but only plays up to DSD64 and 24/192.

 

I have just sent it to Bricasti and have gotten every upgrade to make it current (SE Edition, Updated USB, Ethernet Network Card, Firmware, etc.)

 

If anyone has experience updating an M1 over the years and hearing the improvements - I am curious as to what type of improvements I can expect with the upgrades I've purchased. I've heard the network card is very good, without even considering the other upgrades, and I have already gotten very nice results using a REGEN between the Aries and the M1 - so I feel like there are better transports than the Aries for it (and what better input than one that essentially provides I2S input directly from ethernet?).

 

I'm also curious about the SE upgrade and the firmware revisions specifically.

 

Any impressions / feedback you can provide is greatly appreciated!

 

Andrew

[One and a half]

Well, pretty close to 8 weeks without  a post, PM or boo on a sympathetic driver for the MPD-3. That pretty well sums up the situation. Case closed.

 

[fsmithjack]

New job, wife pregnant, vacation time in the sun and just picked up my C7 Corvette convertible Z51. It’s summer time so forum and Audio time gets squeezed pretty good. I loved the Aries and Regen. I was blown away and I mean blown away by he M1 Ethernet player. It was a gigantic improvement over Aries, Regen. I mean like I never expected to be that much better. 

[Bones13]

The vagarities of the proprietary Linux OS systems out there was very offputting as I was searching for a new system. I understand that the manufacturers want to build something “special” and differentiate themselves. Buying a specially built unit, with an audio specialized OS, is currently fairly costly, which is understandable. However, there needs to be a common API, or expectation, that needs to be established by the industry. Then both the server companies, and the DAC companies would have a common dataset to meet, assuring that customers could buy the products that are “best” for them, and not have to be concerned with imcompatability. I don’t think that every DAC maker should have to make a driver for every OS, particularly the custom versions, nor should a server maker need to write drivers for every oddball DAC. There needs to be a common system that both sides can’t work to. Then every manufacturer would need to make their “special” thing allowed for in their driver or firmware.

 

That being said, I chose the M12 from Bricasi, and am very happy with my choice. I am working on a new NAS box to be my Roon Server and minimsever. I am a big fan of streaming direct from ethernet and skip the USB/SPDIF debate altogether. I will be using the optical port to input sound from video sources.

 

Roon, and DSD128 (DoP) work fine, and I have had no issues at all getting the M12 installed in my system and working well. Huge upgrade for my system.

[One and a half]

On 8/18/2018 at 1:54 AM, Bones13 said:

The vagarities of the proprietary Linux OS systems out there was very offputting as I was searching for a new system. I understand that the manufacturers want to build something “special” and differentiate themselves. Buying a specially built unit, with an audio specialized OS, is currently fairly costly, which is understandable. However, there needs to be a common API, or expectation, that needs to be established by the industry. Then both the server companies, and the DAC companies would have a common dataset to meet, assuring that customers could buy the products that are “best” for them, and not have to be concerned with imcompatability. I don’t think that every DAC maker should have to make a driver for every OS, particularly the custom versions, nor should a server maker need to write drivers for every oddball DAC. There needs to be a common system that both sides can’t work to. Then every manufacturer would need to make their “special” thing allowed for in their driver or firmware.

 

That being said, I chose the M12 from Bricasi, and am very happy with my choice. I am working on a new NAS box to be my Roon Server and minimsever. I am a big fan of streaming direct from ethernet and skip the USB/SPDIF debate altogether. I will be using the optical port to input sound from video sources.

 

Roon, and DSD128 (DoP) work fine, and I have had no issues at all getting the M12 installed in my system and working well. Huge upgrade for my system.

Your post raises a 'most likely' shaped evolution of computer audio devices, where a DAC, rather than a standalone device, due to the weirdness of Linux (or whatever OS) resides in a streamer as a one piece device right to the analog out. The costs of  development compatibility software for what is primarily a 'hardware' manufacturer to absorb given support for legacy devices and the large user-base of DACs is becoming very difficult. After all, the files types today are FLAC, dsf/dff, WAV, ALAC/AIFF., deliberately omitting MP3 for consideration. It's not hard to play such a small list, gaplessly?  Roon does make it easy though, their networking protocol is very robust and the player (at last) doesn't annoy like it used to from a personal note. 

 

Conversion software can have its place, over the years though, my preference is to decode the file as is. The choice of filtering is a real nightmare and is often program dependant, it's not then a set and forget exercise.

 

Congrats on the M12, if it has the same house sound as the M5 it will certainly will perform very well. For my direct purposes at the moment, the M1 with Ethernet input maybe the choice, the more tempting proposal would be to incorporate an FC connector instead. I'm not a fan of a chain of USB/S/PDIF fixers any more with different power supplies and spiderweb interconnecting cables, that's an intermediate fix to a fundamental problem, like it usually is, the interface.

 

As you say, there are no API or protocol standards from the industry, uPNP is lame to the point of laughable. I follow the Japanese consumer electronics industry reasonably closely, their Ethernet streaming transmissions have a long way to go to develop any standardisation and all have developed their own protocols with poorly written and often clunky interfaces. It's very easy for them to collude on price fixing, yet have no common ground technically other than the hardware interface of an RJ45.

[fsmithjack]

For you guys that use the Ethernet input into your Bricasti M1/M12, I got a fantastic SQ increase going with an upgraded Ethernet Switch powered by a linear power supply. For the money it cost the return on SQ investment was absolutely fantastic. I only say this for those that are interested in pushing their rigs forward from my very happy first hand experience but not to debate why it helps or in theory if it should or shouldn’t help. I know it helps. I bought and it blew me away! Please if you don’t believe in the idea then please don’t buy it. Same thing with power cables as many don’t believe in them. Great - no prob - enjoy but for those interested I can tell you right now - when I upgraded my Ethernet switch and it’s power supply my Bricasti popped with a Capital P with Gigantic improvement. Way more than I would have guessed but each their own. Those interested I promise you will love it! I sure do!