Burn-in Angst

[Blackmorec]

Can anyone give me an idea how long an SOtM tx-USBUltra with sPS-500, Vovox Textura USB cables and Hi Diamond D2 PC take to 'burn-in'. I'm currently at 165 hours and my system, which I would previously have described as 'flawless' is now anything but, hence my frustration. The 'active' USB cable (2 USB cables with the SOtM regeneration/reclocking device between)  replaced a standard £50 loaner Chord USB cable. Appreciate any insights or descriptions of the burn-in process. Thanks 

[GUTB]

Around 200 hours is the general ballpark for burn-in. Your power cable appears to be silver-plated copper, which is fairly quick to burn in (at least 100 hours). If it has carbon fiber related to the conductive path it can take a lot longer. In regards to the USBUltra the clock circuitry needs burn-in, and this may take a lot more time. USB cable probably doesn't need any burn-in.

 

Here is my concern, burn-in at this point shouldn't have a huge impact on the sound. How would you characterize the sound compared to what you had?

[Blackmorec]

How would I characterize the sound before and after. That's relatively easy.

 

Before: Flawless. Incredible rhythmic propulsion and listener involvement. Beautiful timbre,  totally natural, soundstage according to what the sound engineer put onto the recording. Each instrument had its individual acoustic space and reverberation. Utterly transparent, most recordings rated very good to breathtaking......on the few  poor recordings you could clearly hear the Sound Engineer's failings....for example a recording where the soundstage was like a tunnel....deep but very narrow, another wide but not more than a meter high or another with instruments placed in very narrow acoustic windows with no air or natural decay.  On most recordings the system showed perfect tonal balance top-to-bottom with no emphasis or suck outs. With certain recordings the soundstage was huge....much bigger that the listening room.

Now:  Mid bass hump, like a room node; overhyped glassy treble...the system sounds unbalanced and uncomfortable. Rhythmic drive and listener involvement substantially reduced, soundstage nothing like as focused, difficult to recognize the acoustic space of individual  instruments....soundstage perception nothing like as 'remarkable'

 

In short, the system has gone from being the best and most engaging I've every heard to something that's rather average with some significant faults in the frequency balance. The treble isn't hard or harsh...its just that what was textured or shimmering is now a little smoothed over or glassy and unremarkable.

 

[Fluffytime]

Seriously, if you've changed something in your system and the system sounds worse, just get rid of it.

 

"Burn-in" isn't going to magically turn a turd into a diamond at 237.3 hours or whatever.

[mfin]

Can I just paraphrase the setup you have to check I've read it right...

 

So, you had been running just a £50 chord usb cable

 

Now that's replaced by:

Vovox Textura USB Cable --> tX-USBultra (powered by sMS-500 connected using a Hi Diamond D2 PC lead) --> Vovox Textura Cable

 

Is that right? Plus, what's this lot connecting, what source to what dac?

 

(I own some of this stuff, and even have a Vovox Textura USB sat here at the moment, and compared it to a few others)

 

If the above is correct, have you rewound in time and just tried the £50 Chord against the Textura for comparison purposes?

 

Plus, have you tried connecting the sMS-500 to the tX-USBultra with the power lead that came with it? Again for comparison purposes.

 

EDIT: I also agree with the above post on gut reaction, I wouldn't expect too radical a change

[Blackmorec]

Yes, correct.

AQVox Switch SE, Innuos Zenith SE, SOtM tx-USB Ultra - Devialet 440 Exp Pro CI, SR wiring loom

The Chord USB cable is back with the dealer, hence I can't substitute it unfortunately.

Quote

 

"Seriously, if you've changed something in your system and the system sounds worse, just get rid of it.

"Burn-in" isn't going to magically turn a turd into a diamond at 237.3 hours or whatever

 

 

Obviously you've never heard JPS Kaptovator PCs,  just one example that immediately comes to mind. Unbearable until suddenly one day they're wonderful.  After that experience I made adapters to let me use power cables with something like a fan so I don't have to listen to the ugly side of break-in.  Magnan cables did similar things, initially sounding awful until one happy day, they didn't.

 

In this present case the whole system was new so I needed to run in the entire system....however I only received the SOtMs and associated cables after I'd started burning in the rest of the system, hence the loaner Chord USB and how I could compare before and after.  BTW I don't think many audiophiles would consider a tx-USBUltra-sPS-500 combination to be a turd. The reviews and user testimonials are uniformly glowing so I'm pretty certain that once the system is run in it will sound amazing...I just want to know how damned long its going to take.

[mfin]

How many hours of burn in is the rest of the system at?

[Fluffytime]

6 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

AQVox Switch SE, Innuos Zenith SE, SOtM tx-USB Ultra - Devialet 440 Exp Pro CI, SR wiring loom.

 

"Seriously, if you've changed something in your system and the system sounds worse, just get rid of it.

"Burn-in" isn't going to magically turn a turd into a diamond at 237.3 hours or whatever

 

Obviously you've never heard JPS Kaptovator PCs,  just one example that immediately comes to mind. Unbearable until suddenly one day they aren't.  After that experience I made adapters to let me use power cables with something like a fan so I don't have to listen to the ugly side of break-in. 

 

In this case the whole system was new so I needed to run in the entire system....however I only received the SOtMs and associated cables after I'd started burning in the rest of the system, hence I could compare before and after.  BTW I don't think many audiophiles would consider a tx-USBUltra-sPS-500 combination to be a turd. The reviews and user testimonials are uniformly glowing so I'm pretty certain that once the system is run in it will sound amazing...I just want to know how damned long its going to take.

 

So you really don't see that there's a possibility that you might just not like the sound of that particular combination? And that there might be other things you'd like better, regardless of "burn-in", testimonials, and glowing reviews?

 

You should trust your ears, not random opinions on the internet.

 

 

[Blackmorec]

Quote

 

So you really don't see that there's a possibility that you might just not like the sound of that particular combination? And that there might be other things you'd like better, regardless of "burn-in", testimonials, and glowing reviews?

 

You should trust your ears, not random opinions on the internet.

 

There's always that possibility but frankly I think its highly unlikely. Ears I very much trust, including a manufacturer of the equipment I use have uniformly reported stellar results. No exception...no caveats, no reservations other than to use the improved PS for maximum benefit.  Its not just random opinions on the internet...its people whose advice I've followed in the past and whose opinions I've learned are worth listening to.

I do trust my ears, and they're telling me these products are not broken in so are not sounding as they should.

What I'd really like is for someone who's got the same products to let me know their experience with how long burn in took so I can ensure I give them time enough to sound good before sending them back to the dealer. My experience is that some of the finest sounding audio products initially sound quite poor until properly burned in.

 

[Fluffytime]

Yeah, OK, good luck with that...

[mfin]

I didn't find huge leaps in burning in with those two sotm boxes. I wonder if the class d amps in the devialet are having a moment during their burn in. Class D burn in was an up and down long journey when I experienced it.

 

Try something other than the Textura too when it's all finally settled, particularly for the final cable.

 

By the way, If budget was fixed then I would have spent less on the USB cable going into the tXUSB allowing more to be spent on the one coming out I think from what I know now anyway. So rather than two £300 cables, I'd spend £100 on the one going in and £500 on the one coming out.

[fas42]

The way I do cabling normally doesn't cause grief, re. "burn-in". To my mind most of theses cabling issues are to do with stress in the materials, after being "shaped" for their positions, in use - the materials need to stabilise over some period, which can depend on all sorts of things.

 

So, once in place, don't start bending things again! ... that would be my advice.

[GUTB]

Is the USBUltra getting dirty power from your mains? Is it plugged into a shared circuit with your non-audio gear?

[Blackmorec]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

So, once in place, don't start bending things again! ... that would be my advice.

I've found the same thing, which is why I'm reluctant to start swapping out cables. If I remove cables for cleaning for example, I try to keep the bends 'as-is' to prevent the cable having to settle in again, but that's not always easy

 

6 hours ago, GUTB said:

Is the USBUltra getting dirty power from your mains? Is it plugged into a shared circuit with your non-audio gear?

 

No, the system is fed its power from a dedicated CU, with Klangmodule III 50A fuses and fuse holders, Acrolink 7N P4030II cable and Furutech gold unswitched sockets ganged together with unbroken Acrolink.  Could be this running in, because it was newly installed for this system.  Would however be unusual for something to sound great and stable over several days to suddenly go totally off colour at exactly the same time some new components were installed. Unusual but not unheard of I guess. I've heard new mains installations produce similar effects to those I have currently.

 

Here's my logic for the SOtM boxes and cables. They cost me £2,500 and together comprise an 'active' cable that retimes and regenerates the USB signal out of the Zenith. As a component, they need to outperform a top-of-the-pile USB cable costing similar money.  In essence, to be a complete success, SOtM + cables need to outperform ANY passive USB cable almost regardless of price. SOtM's success is built on doing exactly that. Further, I'm a huge believer in synergy and according to the dealer who imports SOtM, the most synergistic pairing is the SOtM with the cables I bought. They have sold and installed hundreds of these units not to mention all the shows and open houses they've done so I'm not inclined to try and second guess them regarding cable selection. They completely agree that the units need burn-in but seem reticent in saying how long.  

 

The cables' reputations are built on producing the most natural, musical sound. I had natural and musical before I installed everything. Now I have 'hi-fi' sound, which I'm fairly sure will change once burn-in is complete...but my question is still, how long do I need to give them? I've heard 200 hours a couple of times, so I'll go with 250 in which case, 80 hours to go!

[Spacehound]

14 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

 

Can anyone give me an idea how long an SOtM tx-USBUltra with sPS-500, Vovox Textura USB cables and Hi Diamond D2 PC take to 'burn-in'. I'm currently at 165 hours and my system, which I would previously have described as 'flawless' is now anything but, hence my frustration. The 'active' USB cable (2 USB cables with the SOtM regeneration/reclocking device between)  replaced a standard £50 loaner Chord USB cable. Appreciate any insights or descriptions of the burn-in process. Thanks 

Why are you wasting your time/money  on all this garbage if it was flawless already?

 

Burn in? Doesn't happen except possibly for speakers.

 

Anything else  is your 'expectation bias', which is a 'scientific' term applied to the behaviour of  foolish  people who believe that spending more money makes things better.

[GUTB]

7 hours ago, Spacehound said:

Why are you wasting your time/money  on all this garbage if it was flawless already?

 

Burn in? Doesn't happen except possibly for speakers.

 

Anything else  is your 'expectation bias', which is a 'scientific' term applied to the behaviour of  foolish  people who believe that spending more money makes things better.

 

Misinformation. 200 hours is the general burn-in requirement for things like copper and silver cabling, tubes, etc. Electronics can take up to 400 hours depending on parts (exotic caps). Rhodium, carbon fiber, class D, speakers, etc take around 800 hours. MM carts need only a few hours while MC carts need 50 hours.

 

The high end femto clock in the SOTM gear does need time to burn-in. Clocks are linked to harsh/bright sounding problems. USB cables by themselves shouldn’t ruin sound unless they are causing a lot of jitter and forcing the DAC to generate self noise cleaning it up. The symptoms the OP describes sound more like his power delivery isn’t burned in — before burning in power cables ca be pretty bad.

[semente]

18 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

How would I characterize the sound before and after. That's relatively easy.

 

Before: Flawless. Incredible rhythmic propulsion and listener involvement. Beautiful timbre,  totally natural, soundstage according to what the sound engineer put onto the recording. Each instrument had its individual acoustic space and reverberation. Utterly transparent, most recordings rated very good to breathtaking......on the few  poor recordings you could clearly hear the Sound Engineer's failings....for example a recording where the soundstage was like a tunnel....deep but very narrow, another wide but not more than a meter high or another with instruments placed in very narrow acoustic windows with no air or natural decay.  On most recordings the system showed perfect tonal balance top-to-bottom with no emphasis or suck outs. With certain recordings the soundstage was huge....much bigger that the listening room.

Now:  Mid bass hump, like a room node; overhyped glassy treble...the system sounds unbalanced and uncomfortable. Rhythmic drive and listener involvement substantially reduced, soundstage nothing like as focused, difficult to recognize the acoustic space of individual  instruments....soundstage perception nothing like as 'remarkable'

 

In short, the system has gone from being the best and most engaging I've every heard to something that's rather average with some significant faults in the frequency balance. The treble isn't hard or harsh...its just that what was textured or shimmering is now a little smoothed over or glassy and unremarkable.

 

Which speakers?

[crenca]

To the OP:

 

Put the in spec USB you removed cable back in, and remove all the out of-beyond-magical spec boxes/cables you replaced it with and thus returning to near flawless delivery of bits  

[adamdea]

It’s pretty obvious the OP has an incoherent cable loom with inadequate attention to quantum tunnelling effects. At the very least some dedicated cable risers and some Synergistic atmospheres are required. 

[Ryelands]

8 hours ago, Spacehound said:

Anything else  is your 'expectation bias', which is a 'scientific' term applied to the behaviour of  foolish  people who believe that spending more money makes things better.

 

Having many years ago trained as an experimental psychologist, may I point that, insofar as 'expectation bias' has merit as a 'scientific' term, it's a notion a deal more subtle than your laboured sarcasm suggests.

 

I'd argue that it applies equally to the behaviour of foolish people who believe that spouting off one side of a poorly-understood argument is enough to win it. I respectfully suggest you either stop using the phrase or, if you insist, read up on it.

[Blackmorec]

45 minutes ago, semente said:

Which speakers?

Magico S1 MkII

 

37 minutes ago, crenca said:

To the OP:

 

Put the in spec USB you removed cable back in, and remove all the out of-beyond-magical spec boxes/cables you replaced it with and thus returning to near flawless delivery of bits  

Unfortunately not possible as it was a dealer loaner thatwent back when the SOtM units and cables were supplied. 

 

55 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Misinformation. 200 hours is the general burn-in requirement for things like copper and silver cabling, tubes, etc. Electronics can take up to 400 hours depending on parts (exotic caps). Rhodium, carbon fiber, class D, speakers, etc take around 800 hours. MM carts need only a few hours while MC carts need 50 hours.

 

The high end femto clock in the SOTM gear does need time to burn-in. Clocks are linked to harsh/bright sounding problems. USB cables by themselves shouldn’t ruin sound unless they are causing a lot of jitter and forcing the DAC to generate self noise cleaning it up. The symptoms the OP describes sound more like his power delivery isn’t burned in — before burning in power cables ca be pretty bad.

I agree. It sounds like more than only one issue...maybe power and clock. Today’s listening session did seem to be an improvement. Still some problems with frequency balance but sound stage and rhythmic drive seem to be improving. Thanks a lot for the insights. Appreciated

[kumakuma]

7 minutes ago, Ryelands said:

 

Having many years ago trained as an experimental psychologist, may I point that, insofar as 'expectation bias' has merit as a 'scientific' term, it's a notion a deal more subtle than your laboured sarcasm suggests.

 

I'd argue that it applies equally to the behaviour of foolish people who believe that spouting off one side of a poorly-understood argument is enough to win it. I respectfully suggest you either stop using the phrase or, if you insist, read up on it.

 

Perhaps you could start a thread to share your knowledge of the subject and how you believe it applies to this hobby.

[crenca]

8 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

 

Unfortunately not possible as it was a dealer loaner thatwent back when the SOtM units and cables were supplied. 

 

 

Belkin gold series, Amazon, < $10.  If you must, go for an Audioquest Forest cable for round $40

[Ryelands]

10 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Perhaps you could start a thread to share your knowledge of the subject and how you believe it applies to this hobby.

There's plenty of readily available material for those who want to learn about controlling psychological experiments, most of it written by better minds than mine.

 

My point is that the term "expectation bias" has little to offer the hobby and less when used by those who don't know what it means but want to use it as a bludgeon.

[pkane2001]

19 minutes ago, Ryelands said:

There's plenty of readily available material for those who want to learn about controlling psychological experiments, most of it written by better minds than mine.

 

My point is that the term "expectation bias" has little to offer the hobby and less when used by those who don't know what it means but want to use it as a bludgeon.

 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the most often used method to control for expectation bias is to conduct a controlled double blind experiment. Is this not what is being promoted on these fora by those who believe that expectation bias is a significant factor in audiophile world? What would you recommend instead?