Finally...A basic DAC from Mytek

[exdmd]

On 4/3/2018 at 3:31 AM, moriez said:

The Liberty is also in my sights, and because this thread contains most information around the net yet I'm wondering if any of the owners is able to make first hand comparisons to Metrum Musette/Amethyst, Chord Mojo/2Qute or Schiit Bifrost Multibit. These DACs are the last ones I heard and still somewhat in memory. Liking the Metrums best out of those.

 

 

I own a Liberty, Brooklyn DAC+ and Schiit Bifrost Multibit. I would recommend you buy a Liberty over the Bifrost, not only for MQA but because the Liberty sounds better than the Bifrost to my ears. The Liberty is close to the Brooklyn DAC+ at less than half the price. I can't stand to listen to the Bifrost on my main system so it is relegated to TV duty using Toslink input feeding a Vali 2. Considering all the problems @left channel reported on her experience with the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 if you want reliable MQA under $1000 get a Liberty.

[left channel]

@moriez the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital costs so much less than the Liberty you may still want to take the risk of a return or firmware issues, for the information display and other aspects of that very ambitious little product. Pro-Ject managers have been steadily working through their quality and support issues. But hopefully for the Liberty's price you do get what you pay for.

As for the sound, those are all very different DACs. I don't have a Bifrost or any multibit Schiit, but much prefer the sound of my AKM-based Schiit and NuPrime DACs over ESS-based DACs from Pro-Ject and others. The difference between DACs is often very subtle though, and doesn't jump out at you the way the sound of an amp would. It often takes weeks or months of listening before a conclusion surfaces, sometimes when you weren't specifically listening for it.

 

But as many of these DACs do come with built-in headphone amps I should also mention that I use my Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital only as a DAC, connected via the RCA outs for a warmer sound to a Schiit Magni 2U head amp / preamp and thence to NuPrime STA-9 speaker amp.

[buonassi]

7 hours ago, left channel said:

It often takes weeks or months of listening before a conclusion surfaces, sometimes when you weren't specifically listening for it.

I agree that being able to describe the differences in an effective way takes some time.  For example, I knew right away when I plugged in my iDAC2 that it was "different" from the modi multibit it was replacing.  I liked it immediately, but noticed some fatigue after about an hour.  But it took me over 3 weeks to settle into it and have a grasp on how I'd describe the difference.  

 

It's interesting that you bring up the pro-ject DAC.  That too is on my short list of next DACs to own.  But when the Liberty came out, I jumped for joy - because I really wanted the Brooklyn+, but couldn't justify that kind of money (I'm relatively new to this hobby and want to experience the journey vs going all end-game).  

 

Also, I have to consider whether or not there are other limiting factors in my chain that would prevent me from enjoying something like the Mytek DACs to their fullest.  I have a pretty well-regarded amp and headphones, and use A+ software in direct mode - so perhaps I'm ready?  dunno.  

 

Appreciate the feedback.  It would be interesting to hear these two DACs compared directly to one another.  

edit: the liberty and s2d I mean.....

 

[Kilauea50]

I also have the S2 but the experience I had with the 5v jack falling out and getting it replaced left a bad taste in my mouth for that unit.  I bought the Liberty during all that process and don’t regret it.  It is very well made and fortunately I have a dealer close by.  I love the S2 but after receiving and listening to the Liberty, I am extremely happy with it.  I believe I saw on the Roon forums someone mention that the Liberty has the same output stage as the Dac+.  

[buonassi]

43 minutes ago, Kilauea50 said:

I believe I saw on the Roon forums someone mention that the Liberty has the same output stage as the Dac+.  

I believe I read that as well somewhere.

 

Sounds like your experience with s2 was more soured by the physical build quality and not so much the sound.  Honesty, the reason I'd like to get a new DAC is to forego the upsampling and just feed it good old 16/44.1.  So I am looking for something with selectable filters.  Currently I'm stuck with linear phase slow and fast rolloff with my iDAC2.  I find that certain music sounds better with linear phase and other genres with intermediate or minimum phase.  So that may be the deciding factor for me given that the liberty doesn't have selectable filters (right?).  

[Kilauea50]

1 minute ago, buonassi said:

I believe I read that as well somewhere.

 

Sounds like your experience with s2 was more soured by the physical build quality and not so much the sound.  Honesty, the reason I'd like to get a new DAC is to forego the upsampling and just feed it good old 16/44.1.  So I am looking for something with selectable filters.  Currently I'm stuck with linear phase slow and fast rolloff with my iDAC2.  I find that certain music sounds better with linear phase and other genres with intermediate or minimum phase.  So that may be the deciding factor for me given that the liberty doesn't have selectable filters (right?).  

I use HQPlayer and find the filters wonderful.  You can choose to upsample or just apply a filter.  I haven’t had a dac yet that surpasses the filters in that software but I realize that that is subjective.  

[buonassi]

I too enjoy playing with filters (probably too much) in Audirvana+.  I have to believe that HQP sounds outstanding given miska's entire value prop is based on upsampling (and changes to reconstruction filters).  I'd purchase his software in a second if it supported AU plugins as well as Tidal streaming.  

 

I guess that begs the question.... if we are to keep using our computer to do the interpolation (and avoid this being done by the DAC's oversampling), then what is the allure of a pretty expensive DAC like Liberty?  Is it because the analogue out stage is that much superior, resulting in better SQ?  

[Kilauea50]

I also have A+ but haven’t used it since getting the SonicTransporter i7.  I use HQP via Roon with Tidal integration and favor this setup over the Mac Pro/A+ by a large margin.  The i7 is a beast for sure.  The Mytek wins for a number of reasons.  In my opinion it is a superior dac over the S2 and it really should be given the cost.  Since receiving it, Mytek has released 2 firmware updates which they post on their site.  The S2 has real issues in that category.  I couldn’t get the Liberty to play back native DSD so I called Mytek and opened a ticket.  I then emailed Andrew at Small Green Computer to make sure I had the i7 settings correct and he then contacted Jesus’ at Sonore and they figured out what the issue was.  Andrew then contacted the person I was dealing with at Mytek.  That is the kind of stuff I have learned to appreciate.  Finally, the Liberty sonically is exceptional.  I too said that I just wanted to play back straight 44.1 via Tidal until I heard DSD through HQP.  My whole perspective changed but again, it is all subjective.  I am very happy with this dac.  I did consider the Dac+ but I don’t need all the features that it offers.  I just needed a pure dac and that is what the Liberty is 

[exdmd]

3 hours ago, buonassi said:

I agree that being able to describe the differences in an effective way takes some time.  For example, I knew right away when I plugged in my iDAC2 that it was "different" from the modi multibit it was replacing.  I liked it immediately, but noticed some fatigue after about an hour.  But it took me over 3 weeks to settle into it and have a grasp on how I'd describe the difference.  

 

It's interesting that you bring up the pro-ject DAC.  That too is on my short list of next DACs to own.  But when the Liberty came out, I jumped for joy - because I really wanted the Brooklyn+, but couldn't justify that kind of money (I'm relatively new to this hobby and want to experience the journey vs going all end-game).  

 

Also, I have to consider whether or not there are other limiting factors in my chain that would prevent me from enjoying something like the Mytek DACs to their fullest.  I have a pretty well-regarded amp and headphones, and use A+ software in direct mode - so perhaps I'm ready?  dunno.  

 

Appreciate the feedback.  It would be interesting to hear these two DACs compared directly to one another.  

edit: the liberty and s2d I mean.....

 

 

The Liberty scales well with better amps and phones just like the Brooklyn DAC+. Also just like the DAC+ the built in headamp is about as good as a $100 Schiit. SS, one dimensional. I marvel at the difference when I switch back to my Kenzie tube amp: suddenly I have a sound stage again and no SS glare.

[Kilauea50]

36 minutes ago, exdmd said:

 

The Liberty scales well with better amps and phones just like the Brooklyn DAC+. Also just like the DAC+ the built in headamp is about as good as a $100 Schiit. SS, one dimensional. I marvel at the difference when I switch back to my Kenzie tube amp: suddenly I have a sound stage again and no SS glare.

Don’t you just love tube gear? I have a tube preamp being built and should get it in a couple weeks or so. There is nothing like the magic of tubes

[left channel]

11 hours ago, Kilauea50 said:

<snip>

Since receiving it, Mytek has released 2 firmware updates which they post on their site.  The S2 has real issues in that category.  I couldn’t get the Liberty to play back native DSD so I called Mytek and opened a ticket.  I then emailed Andrew at Small Green Computer to make sure I had the i7 settings correct and he then contacted Jesus’ at Sonore and they figured out what the issue was.  Andrew then contacted the person I was dealing with at Mytek.  That is the kind of stuff I have learned to appreciate.

<snip>

 

That is good to hear. Pro-Ject and their dealers simply aren't capable of that sort of response yet. It's been very frustrating, but the support manager has assured me they will be considering my reports and suggestions for a new approach. Meanwhile it's clear you get what you pay for with more expensive products from smaller companies. I'm also happy with SGC and Sonore, and I'm sure Mytek would be great too.

[moriez]

Thanks for the replies @exdmd and @left channel

 

MQA or whatever feature isn't important to me at all. Liberty is in the right price bracket (used) and being Brooklyn's 'little brother' is what has me interested. Just want to hear what it brings to my setup compared to the current DAC which is the Amethyst.

 

On 27-4-2018 at 6:47 PM, exdmd said:

I own a Liberty, Brooklyn DAC+ and Schiit Bifrost Multibit. I would recommend you buy a Liberty over the Bifrost, not only for MQA but because the Liberty sounds better than the Bifrost to my ears. 

 

Can you give a few details of why Liberty sounds better to you? What I clearly remember is that I had the impression Bimby was a bit v-shaped but I'm unsure to what DAC I was comparing to at the time. Chose to sell Bimby for that reason.

 

[exdmd]

The Bifrost Multibit Gen 5 does not synergize with my HD800S and Kenzie tube amp while the Liberty does. The Brooklyn DAC+ does best the Liberty at high treble realism and definition though so far, still burning in the Liberty though. I think most buy the Liberty for the MQA.

[left channel]

@moriez I suspect the experience will be quite different. The Amethyst is an R2R-based DAC, the Brooklyn/Liberty and S2D are ESS Saber-based designs, and Schiit multibits are AD-based designs. When a headphone amp is built into a DAC, it is usually designed to produce and further emphasize the same sound signature. I'd describe ESS-based designs and the amps they're paired with as neutral-to-bright and highly resolving, with far too much treble for me. I prefer AKM-based DACs. But tastes aside, I think the reports you're getting here are quite consistent.

[Kilauea50]

I totally agree with @left channel concerning ESS-based Dacs in general.  The Liberty is the exception to the rule as it has no glare whatsoever.  It is very neutral/warm sounding and there is no listening fatigue like I have experienced with other dacs.  I don’t use headphones so I am no help in that area but Mytek has done a very nice job with this dac.  They released another update last Friday and added volume bypass for those with preamps

[buonassi]

On 4/27/2018 at 10:45 PM, exdmd said:

Also just like the DAC+ the built in headamp is about as good as a $100 Schiit.

 

I'm under the impression liberty's is of similar quality to their headamp stage in the brooklyn, albeit half the power and not balanced.  Anyone able to confirm this?  To your post about Schiit, I hope this isn't the case as I am NOT impressed with their lower level amps, and haven't heard their higher tiered ones.  I was happy with the Asgard 2 until I got some more experience with amps, then had to sell it.  Just wasn't as tight, controlled bass, though plenty was there in level.  

 

I was surprised to read that at least one serious headphone reviewer praised the headamp stage in the brooklyn, preferring it in some cases to a venerable violectric!  Schiit wouldn't stand a chance against this amp I don't think.  http://www.headphoneer.com/mytek-brooklyn-dac/

 

If the liberty has a similar stage as brooklyn, and it 'should' based on the marketing "high current, high transient", and for cost purposes probably uses the same circuits (opamps etc) - then it should be outstanding.  In my experience, the voltage swing (aka slew rate) is of major importance for tight, controlled, punchy bass. "high transient" seems to suggest this. And at 0.1 ohm provides for outstanding damping of anything plugged into it.  

[exdmd]

@buonassi I own both a Brooklyn DAC+ and a Liberty. The Liberty head amp is not outstanding: how good a head amp could one expect in a $1000 DAC? The built in head amps on both are listenable but nothing exceptional. My Kenzie tube amp far out performs both of the built ins. Buy a Liberty or DAC+ and test for your self.

[buonassi]

On 2/13/2018 at 9:49 AM, PunkRiot said:

maybe they chose one of the 7 built in ESS filter for PCM and just use that one by default and switches to MQA filter only when MQA content is playing? Otherwise the PCM will sound like crap. This is still Mytek, I doubt they would compromise quality by using MQA filter for all PCM content. 

 

Anyone found out any differently?  I suppose I can try reaching out to mytek, but not sure if they engage folks as readily as other manufacturers.  

 

In the end, someone will put this on an osciliscope and observe the impulse response or square wave leading edges at various sample rates.  

 

As I had that thought, I stumbled upon this: 

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/07/measurements-mqa-filters-on-mytek.html

 

it seems that for at least one sample rate, the brooklyn kept the MQA filter for standard PCM playback.  So it could be intuited that they did the same for the liberty?  This is what is holding me back from purchasing one of their DACs currently.  

[buonassi]

furthermore page 16-17 (version 1.7) of the brookly manual indicates that when MQA support is "enabled", the filters are fixed at minimum phase (and likely a very slow rolloff) as these are MQA filters.

 

Measurements at stereophile corroborate this: https://www.stereophile.com/content/mytek-hifi-brooklyn-da-processorheadphone-amplifier-measurements

 

So if there is no way to disengage the MQA mode on the liberty, I believe there is a good chance we are stuck with its reconstruction filter for PCM.

 

News or links to the contrary are most welcomed.

[Kilauea50]

I have about 300 hours now on the Liberty and it is the best sounding ESS Sabre dac I have heard.  As for MQA, I use Roon to decode and HQPlayer’s filters.  I have also used Roon’s filters which do sound good but I prefer HQP.  I do not regret anything about this purchase.  The last firmware update added volume bypass which I was glad to see since I have a preamp.  I just do not have any complaints to this point

[buonassi]

11 hours ago, Kilauea50 said:

I have about 300 hours now on the Liberty and it is the best sounding ESS Sabre dac I have heard

I just got a used SMSL M8 (non "A" version) for fun.  Besides the dragonfly red, it's my only other experience with Sabre DACs.  Compared to my iDAC2, which is burr brown, the M8 is more analytical, 3D, holigraphic, slightly unnatural sounding, but impressive in it's detail retrieval.  Not as "musical" as the Schiit Modi Multibit.  M8 is more linear in its FR and expansive sounding in its stage, perhaps this combined with the high level of detail (and some fatigue) are what people are talk about when they cite this "Sabre glare".  

 

The most ironic thing about my previous posts is that I like minimum phase filters in general (regardless of the phase distortions involved), and it's no exception on the M8 I'm playing with.  I just prefer it.  So even if liberty has a minimum phase filter employed all the time, I should be happy!  What I don't like is the 'slow' rolloff that can introduce IMD via poor suppression of images.  Now how audible that is, I don't know, can't say I hear it when I make MQA-like filters using software.  

 

I think I've just rationalized a completely unnecessary purchase.  

 

@Kilauea50, Can you perhaps go into some more detail about what sets the Liberty apart from the other Sabre DACs you've heard?  

 

 

[Kilauea50]

Most of the Sabre dacs that I have heard have had a bit of that tinny, bright sound that make you wince a little especially on older jazz recordings.  I just could not listen or have music going all day which is the case when I am home.  I decided to try the Resonessence Veritas dac which was better but still had that glare and ended up selling that.  I don’t have a dedicated audio room so I blamed some of what I thought I was hearing on that.  To make a very long story short, I have a friend who has nothing but great things to say about Mytek’s products so I bought the Liberty with my fingers crossed and I have not looked back.  This dac MUST have break in time.  It started settling in some after about 80 hours and continued after 100.  It does not have that brightness or glare at all.  It is so warm/neutral and it is like the speakers don’t get in the way of the music if that makes sense. It just draws you in.  I can play music 12 hours with no fatigue whatsoever.  I am not very good at breaking down sound quality like some here and have never had vinyl (well not in an audiophile setup) but I cannot imagine there being a big gap.  The Liberty produces, in my room/system at least, the most analog sound I have owned.  Kevin Carter of K&K audio is building his MIR tube preamp for me and I am really excited to hear that combo.  I use the poly-sinc filters in HQP and it really is a treat.  I can’t imagine your being unhappy with it but these things are subjective I guess

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, Kilauea50 said:

Kevin Carter of K&K audio is building his MIR tube preamp for me and I am really excited to hear that combo.

 

Kevin Carter?! Have not heard that name in many years.  I remember him as the MUCH nicer of the two Kevins at VAC (Valve Amplification Company).  Glad to hear he is still around doing Audio.

[Kilauea50]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Kevin Carter?! Have not heard that name in many years.  I remember him as the MUCH nicer of the two Kevins at VAC (Valve Amplification Company).  Glad to hear he is still around doing Audio.

Yes, that is the same Kevin - one of the nicest guys I have ever met.   He is doing very well.  He started his own business years ago and loves it.  He is in the process of moving about 20 miles west of where he lives now.  Here is his site:

 

http://www.kandkaudio.com/

[TonyH]

Hi guys,

 

 

As the owner of a Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC Preamp and looking to upgrade, I am interested in the Brooklyn+ and the Liberty. Do you think the either of these would be enough of a SQ upgrade to warrant the cost ?