Blue or red pill?

[plissken]

2 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

I hope for your sake this rabbit hole doesn't go as far as you (illegally) capturing the streamed bits from TIDAL, just so you can prove that they're exactly the same as the bits from the same named album track files stored on your NAS. Otherwise, how can you prove they're exactly the same bits?

 

Actually that sort of educational use is allowed in the U.S. Don't know about the U.K.

[plissken]

If there is any bias controlled A/B I would love to see this streamed over Periscope.

[manisandher]

I'm happy to demonstrate that I can hear a difference between two identical files, one sitting on my NAS the other local to the audio PC, in a paired comparison. Mans could control the playback software out of sight, with 4 choices:

 

1. A=local, B=local

2. A=NAS, B=local

3. A=local, B=NAS

4. A=NAS, B=NAS

 

Using a track I'm already familiar with, I'm confident I'd get these 100% right - reckon I'd only need 10 seconds or so of each.

 

But quite honestly, I'm way more interested in whether Mans can hear a difference. Once we've established that he can, it'd be really interesting to explore what could be causing two identical files to sound different.

 

Mani.

[kumakuma]

8 minutes ago, manisandher said:

But quite honestly, I'm way more interested in whether Mans can hear a difference. Once we've established that he can, it'd be really interesting to explore what could be causing two identical files to sound different.

 

While interesting, whether or not he can hear differences is irrelevant if you can prove to him that you can hear differences.

[mansr]

51 minutes ago, manisandher said:

Recording the output from my DAC/speakers to try to understand how two identical files sound different on playback would be far more interesting.

 

45 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

Wouldn't capturing the output with an ADC make more sense?

 

My idea is to capture anything that can be captured, be it digital, analogue or acoustic. What is feasible obviously depends on the system.

[fas42]

30 minutes ago, manisandher said:

But quite honestly, I'm way more interested in whether Mans can hear a difference. Once we've established that he can, it'd be really interesting to explore what could be causing two identical files to sound different.

 

Mani.

 

The what is no more "interesting" than using two different cartridges to play the same LP on a particular TT giving different sound - the environment used and in which the playback is occurring has altered, and unless scrupulous care has been taken to ensure there is 100% isolation from interference effects  - something which is very hard to do - I would expect that differences would be heard, by someone who is sensitive to the type of variations that occur.

[sandyk]

42 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

While interesting, whether or not he can hear differences is irrelevant if you can prove to him that you can hear differences.

 

 But nowhere near as satyisfying !

In my case I also won a 12yo bottle of Scotch from my E.E. friend.

[manisandher]

7 hours ago, sandyk said:

In my case I also won a 12yo bottle of Scotch from my E.E. friend.

 

Well, I'm more than happy for @mansr to bring one along with him - might help proceedings ;-)

 

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Should be game changing.

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, manisandher said:

Well, I'm more than happy for @mansr to bring one along with him - might help proceedings ;-)

 

Wait. Bottles of Scotch are always for me, right ? so please be careful to make the proper agreement.

 

Btw, what has been the reason for this thread ? something must have happened somewhere.

 

Peter

[PeterSt]

7 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Btw, what has been the reason for this thread ? something must have happened somewhere.

 

Never mind - found it.

[STC]

9 hours ago, manisandher said:

Using a track I'm already familiar with, I'm confident I'd get these 100% right - reckon I'd only need 10 seconds or so of each.

 

How about random tracks?

[manisandher]

@mansr, we have two choices for setups:

 

1. use my regular Phasure USB DAC

- the best sound quality

- will need to interpolate to 705.6/768 in XXHighEnd/HQPlayer

- will not allow us to capture the digital output of the audio PC (unless you have an ADC that accepts a 24/768 USB input), which might restrict analysis of exactly what is going on

- we will have to accept that in copying a file from my NAS to a local folder on the audio PC, the file really is the same (I totally accept that this is the case - it's during replay that 'weird' things seem to happen)

 

listening setup:

 

recording setup:

 

 

2. use an spdif DAC that I have here

- not as good as Phasure but good enough for the job (I've already tried)

- will need to interpolate to 176.4/192 in XXHighEnd/HQPlayer

- will allow us to capture the digital output of the audio PC (using the Tascam DA-3000 I have here, or any other ADC with an spdif input you care to bring)

 

listening setup:

 

recording setup:

 

 

In either case, as I suggested earlier,  I'm happy to do a paired comparison between the two files. Mans, you could control the playback software out of sight from me, with 3 choices (I had suggested 4 earlier, but this would be easier for me):

 

1. A,B=same (either NAS or local)

2. A=NAS, B=local

3. A=local, B=NAS

 

I don't mind how many pairs we go through (within reason). If I get >70% correct, I think it's reasonable to assume that I really am hearing a difference. (Of course, if this is the case, I hope Mans hears things the way I do too.) We can then go on to recording outputs and trying to figure out what's going on.

 

Thoughts?

 

Mani.

[Spacehound]

12 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

I hope for your sake this rabbit hole doesn't go as far as you (illegally) capturing the streamed bits from TIDAL, just so you can prove that they're exactly the same as the bits from the same named album track files stored on your NAS. Otherwise, how can you prove they're exactly the same bits?

In the UK it's not illegal. If they send stuff along 'my' broadband wire, (which is not owned by Tidal) I can do whatever I want with it.

 

In the UK we cannot sign away our 'natural' or government provided rights even if we want to. So  it follows that most 'restrictive' agreements are not worth the paper or display they are written on. If Tidal, Microsoft, Apple, or whoever don't like that they should remember that our government did not force them to operate here.

[manisandher]

25 minutes ago, STC said:

How about random tracks?

 

No, I wouldn't be comfortable doing this. Depending on the track, I tend to hone in on different areas on which to concentrate. E.g. for one of the tracks I have in mind, it's the singers clapping - from the local folder the claps are full and round, from the NAS they're more edgy and harder on the ears. I need to be well-familiar with the track in order to determine which area.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

51 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Wait. Bottles of Scotch are always for me, right ? so please be careful to make the proper agreement.

 

I'm not keeping any more bottles for you - I only managed a couple of sips from the last one we 'shared'.

 

Any thoughts on the setup/procedure?

 

Mani.

[Spacehound]

1 minute ago, manisandher said:

 

No, I wouldn't be comfortable doing this. Depending on the track, I tend to hone in on different areas on which to concentrate. E.g. for one of the tracks I have in mind, it's the singers clapping - from the local folder the claps are full and round, from the NAS they're more edgy and harder on the ears. I need to be well-familiar with the track in order to determine which area.

 

Mani.

It's an extremely kind  offer and I admire that you bothered. 

I'm near Southampton so it's not far. I am 'minded' to take up your offer so may be in touch via PM. My costs are insignificant so don't matter.

[beerandmusic]

13 hours ago, manisandher said:

I'd start by simply copying a track from my NAS to a local folder in the audio PC and playing the identical files back from their respective locations. That'll break his belief system right there. We can then explore other areas if he's interested.

 

Mani.

 

I am late to this game...i am confused what the disbelief is about?

Of course a file from a nas would sound different than playing from local pc?

Does someone think they would sound the same even though different interfaces and different circuitry?  That's ridiculous.

 

Mansr has always sounded very logical, knowledgeable, and believable, i think there must be some misunderstanding??

[PeterSt]

6 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Of course a file from a nas would sound different than playing from local pc?

 

Of course.

Can you tell why ?

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Of course.

Can you tell why ?

yes, because the noise would be different...plus my own experience...they always sound different.

 

even on my ND8006 that i just got, if i copy the same 5.6mhz DSD song to a flash drive from my network....it sounds notably better from ethernet than from the usb flash drive...let alone any noise a pc would have...would sound even worse....enet is king in all of my experiments.

[Spacehound]

22 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I am late to this game...i am confused what the disbelief is about?

Of course a file from a nas would sound different than playing from local pc?

Does someone think they would sound the same even though different interfaces and different circuitry?  That's ridiculous.

 

Mansr has always sounded very logical, knowledgeable, and believable, i think there must be some misunderstanding??

"Of course..."

There are many good reasons they should sound exactly the same, but that doesn't prove that they don't.

Just a sample - in general only the DAC  should  matter.

 

Also remember you can't 'prefer' anything unless you can hear a difference. So there is no 'good or  'bad' in a blind test, such tests are 100% objective -  'yes'  or 'no'.

 

 

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, Spacehound said:

"Of course..."

There are many good reasons they should sound exactly the same, but that doesn't prove that they don't.

Just a sample - in general only the DAC  should  matter.

 

Also remember you can't 'prefer' anything unless you can hear a difference. So there is no 'good or  'bad' in a blind test, such tests are 100% objective -  'yes'  or 'no'.

 

I was a stong proponent suggesting that the digital source shouldn't make a difference up until about 6 or 7 years ago, when i first started playing native dsd via DLNA. 

 

I have ALWAYS contended enet sounds better than usb, and my adversity to buying usb toys as a bandaid.

 

My guess is that a DAC "CAN or should be able" to fix usb noise depending on the dac...but it seems there is always different "noise signatures".  Even in the case of my ND8006 which can play both usb and enet, the enet sounds better....maybe it is the clocking?

I don't know specicially why (although it must be clocking and noise related, because there is nothing else in the digital domain besides the bits themsleves) but IN ALL of my 100s of different comparisons, enet has always sounded better.

 

 

[beerandmusic]

9 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

Also remember you can't 'prefer' anything unless you can hear a difference. So there is no 'good or  'bad' in a blind test, such tests are 100% objective -  'yes'  or 'no'.

 

my guess is that they are both subjective and objective...my guess is that you would see different noise dependent on interface, and subjectively, the sound is notably better...don't even need to try hard.

[semente]

4 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

Well, I'm more than happy for @mansr to bring one along with him - might help proceedings ;-)

 

Mani.

 

I'm an hour's drive away and could take some cheese for the wine.

Always wanted to listen to the Tunas and Peter's DAC.

[Shadders]

15 hours ago, eclectic said:

Get a room or move it to Grindr.. 

i think you're right. Seeing as there are pills involved, it's not the sort of event i would participate in, especially with the threat of seeing how deep your rabbit hole goes...