Electrostat Speakers: TRASH?

[GUTB]

Okay guys. I finally got to seriously listen to electrostats, a pair of Martin Logan Expression 13As at a Magnolia hooked up to an Arcam SR250 Stereo Reciever (I believe) at a Magnolia. I got to listen to some fo my reference tracks on Tidal. The salesperson assured me they were dialed in perfectly. Impression: TRASH!!

 

The stage was relatively wide, it was quite tall and not forward. There was some depth and good air, Imaging was mediocre but not terrible.

 

The bass was MUDDY and ill-fitting TRASH. Okay, maybe it can be tuned.

 

UNRESOLVING! Low level details buried. Wasn’t good at delineating overlapping sounds. 

 

Top end extension - JUNK! Extremely unsatisfying, muted, veiled, etc peaks. NO thrill in the highs.

 

BAD. Would not pay $1,500, let alone $15,000!!

 

What happened? Is the integrated just trash?

[kumakuma]

4 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Okay guys. I finally got to seriously listen to electrostats, a pair of Martin Logan Expression 13As at a Magnolia hooked up to an Arcam SR250 Stereo Reciever (I believe) at a Magnolia. I got to listen to some fo my reference tracks on Tidal. The salesperson assured me they were dialed in perfectly. Impression: TRASH!!

 

The stage was relatively wide, it was quite tall and not forward. There was some depth and good air, Imaging was mediocre but not terrible.

 

The bass was MUDDY and ill-fitting TRASH. Okay, maybe it can be tuned.

 

UNRESOLVING! Low level details buried. Wasn’t good at delineating overlapping sounds. 

 

Top end extension - JUNK! Extremely unsatisfying, muted, veiled, etc peaks. NO thrill in the highs.

 

BAD. Would not pay $1,500, let alone $15,000!!

 

What happened? Is the integrated just trash?

 

Can you help us understand your ranking system for audio equipment?

 

Does it go BAD -> JUNK -> TRASH -> CRAP or do I have the hierarchy wrong?

[MarkS]

My first “high end” speaker was a ML Sequel II like 30ish years ago, and I tried several others over the years (Summit X was my favorite) before changing direction.  I have found ML’s extremely sensitive to amplification. Even more so than many other speakers I’ve owned/heard. In my experience ML’s need a high damping factor amp to sound best. There are lots of really smart people on this site who can explain why, I just know what my ears hear. 

 

I’m not crapping on the amp you heard, I’m just saying that these same speakers (which I’ve never heard) might sound great with a different amp. Also, most ML’s need subwoofers.  

 

I think ML’s, in the right setup and with the right music can provide TREMENDOUS value and have some world class qualities at a reasonable (for this hobby) price, 

 

Good luck!

[Samuel T Cogley]

4 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Can you help us understand your ranking system for audio equipment?

 

Does it go BAD -> JUNK -> TRASH -> CRAP or do I have the hierarchy wrong?

 

You forgot SUCKS!

[kumakuma]

5 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

You forgot SUCKS!

 

Damn!

 

No idea where this fits into the hierarchy. Maybe between BAD and JUNK?

[Ralf11]

10 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Can you help us understand your ranking system for audio equipment?

 

Does it go BAD -> JUNK -> TRASH -> CRAP or do I have the hierarchy wrong?

 

It is the result of a "mind aglow with whirling, transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention."

 

(Blazing Saddles)

[Samuel T Cogley]

6 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

It is the result of a "mind aglow with whirling, transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention."

 

(Blazing Saddles)

 

I'm most disappointed you couldn't work the word, "rivulets" into that. 

[new_media]

I'm still trying to get my head around Gumby shopping at Best Buy.

[Ralf11]

4 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I'm most disappointed you couldn't work the word, "rivulets" into that. 

 

I'll work on it.  I was really just trying to achieve tonal balance with the Star Trek quotes today...

[Spacehound]

36 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Okay guys. I finally got to seriously listen to electrostats, a pair of Martin Logan Expression 13As at a Magnolia hooked up to an Arcam SR250 Stereo Reciever (I believe) at a Magnolia. I got to listen to some fo my reference tracks on Tidal. The salesperson assured me they were dialed in perfectly. Impression: TRASH!!......

You don't seem to like this hobby very much. It seems to upset you.

 

Maybe you should try something else. How about this?:

 

https://swimswam.com/american-portugal-underwater-unicyclist-breaks-world-record/

[GUTB]

14 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I'll work on it.  I was really just trying to achieve tonal balance with the Star Trek quotes today...

 

Are you cognizant of the fact that many of your one-liners don’t even make sense?

 

So far just one serious response, everyone else just pushing anti-GUTB memes....

[Ralf11]

I do appreciate that they may not make sense to you.

 

I also hope you enjoy your unicycle

[NOMBEDES]

First problem: Magnolia.  The audio guys at Magnolia may not know much about audio....maybe your store is better than some of the local stores I have visited.  So the old YMMV applies.  But still......

 

PS:  Was it safe to park your Roller at a Best Buy?   I usually have one of the servants drop me off......one can not be to careful.

[psjug]

6 minutes ago, NOMBEDES said:

Best Buy

 

It's a big spacious box.  And you can just look at the layout inside and know it's good.

[esldude]

I have not heard these M-Ls in this model.  I have heard various older M-L's and never heard one I liked if it had a woofer attached.  You might add a quality subwoofer of your own, but I have not liked theirs.  Now I haven't heard their newest edition. 

 

I notice it has DSP and ARC.  Did those guys have that dialed in? That can make or break the finest speakers if mis-adjusted. 

 

Of course the GUTB is doing what he is prone to do (being foolish).  You don't listen to one implementation of one design in one location, and make the firm conclusion all similar speakers are trash.  I mean one could hardly say there are no trashy box and cone speakers.  Does one rightly conclude upon hearing one, "cones and boxes=trash audio"?   

[GUTB]

Full disclosure: there was an obvious channel imbalance, which the sales guy didn’t bother to fix even after I nicely pointed it out "hey, is there a channel in balance, it’s kind of driving me crazy haha..." I don’t get how you take one if your main demos and fail to voice it perfectly before showing it off...

[Samuel T Cogley]

Just now, GUTB said:

Full disclosure: there was an obvious channel imbalance, which the sales guy didn’t bother to fix even after I nicely pointed it out "hey, is there a channel in balance, it’s kind of driving me crazy haha..." I don’t get how you take one if your main demos and fail to voice it perfectly before showing it off...

 

You went to Best Buy to audition speakers.  Your expectations were surprisingly (or perhaps characteristically unrealistic?) high for how that was going to go IMHO.

[tmtomh]

25 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Full disclosure: there was an obvious channel imbalance, which the sales guy didn’t bother to fix even after I nicely pointed it out "hey, is there a channel in balance, it’s kind of driving me crazy haha..." I don’t get how you take one if your main demos and fail to voice it perfectly before showing it off...

 

The main reason a number of people have resorted to trolling you (although mostly in a good-natured way) is that you start threads that pose questions to which you already know the answer. They are threads in which you seem to be trolling for confirmation of what you already believe, or attempting to display what you think are your superior audiophile credentials/equipment/ears.

 

In this case, you know full well that electrostatics are like any other speaker: there are better and worse designs and better and worse examples. You also know full well that while cost does not correlate in a simple, linear way to sound quality, a $15k pair of well-regarded speakers is not "TRASH."

 

And you also know full well that a poorly set up system, including a channel imbalance(!), is going to negatively impact imaging and most likely other key sonic aspects too (perhaps including some or all of the sonic issues you cite).

 

So if serious responses are what you're looking for, then how about starting serious threads for a change?

[realhifi]

Best Buy, even their  “Magnolia Theater” stores probably aren’t the best venue for auditioning speakers such as Martin Logan electrostatics.  Pretty well known that it takes serious time, effort and a sympathetic amp/preamp combo to get the best out out a speaker like that and although Magnolia does do pretty good job of getting the word out that there is more to the electronics world than Sonos, Bose, etc. (with the consumurate increase in price) in this case I’d have to say they are out of their league. 

Now if they still carried things like the super friendly Vienna Acoustics line they be a hell of a lot better off and also convert a whole lot more casual listeners into what Hi-Fi music reproduction should be. Enjoyable and addictive! 

[mav52]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

Okay guys. I finally got to seriously listen to electrostats, a pair of Martin Logan Expression 13As at a Magnolia hooked up to an Arcam SR250 Stereo Reciever (I believe) at a Magnolia. I got to listen to some fo my reference tracks on Tidal. The salesperson assured me they were dialed in perfectly. Impression: TRASH!!

 

The stage was relatively wide, it was quite tall and not forward. There was some depth and good air, Imaging was mediocre but not terrible.

 

The bass was MUDDY and ill-fitting TRASH. Okay, maybe it can be tuned.

 

UNRESOLVING! Low level details buried. Wasn’t good at delineating overlapping sounds. 

 

Top end extension - JUNK! Extremely unsatisfying, muted, veiled, etc peaks. NO thrill in the highs.

 

BAD. Would not pay $1,500, let alone $15,000!!

 

What happened? Is the integrated just trash?

 

Not very Audiophile of you to be shopping at Best Buy, ,  Its not up to you high standards.

[GUTB]

The high end in Magnolia Design Centers have respectable equipment — McIntosh and B&W. I went there really to listen to one of the newer McIntosh integrateds, possibly one of thier pres — of Which they didn’t have or were in a crap demo setup (one nice pre in the "welcome stack" outside had speakers about three feet from each other, so basically worthless). Since they had the MLs setup in the "performance audio" room I thought I’d get a demo.

 

Too bad the sales guy was actually nice, no-pressure, and didn’t display a hint of being aggravated at my requests. The word budget never came out of his mouth.

 

BTW, I’m spending the week in Chicago, checking out some local dealers. There’s a ProAc dealer I really must visit. I think one of them has MLs or Mangepans. We’ll see.

[mav52]

20 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Are you cognizant of the fact that many of your one-liners don’t even make sense?

 

So far just one serious response, everyone else just pushing anti-GUTB memes....

Well when you throw out nonsense , like sucks and Trash without any real evidence or have heard others your blanket Post Header is just snobbery. . Like have you heard Quad, Sanders , Apogee, Magnepan and other speakers in the MartinLogan line.  Maybe you need to leave the BestBuy auditions to real people and find yourself a good Audiophile store that actually sets up their speakers for auditions with the proper amps and space to support the speaker.

 

[botrytis]

18 hours ago, GUTB said:

The high end in Magnolia Design Centers have respectable equipment — McIntosh and B&W. I went there really to listen to one of the newer McIntosh integrateds, possibly one of thier pres — of Which they didn’t have or were in a crap demo setup (one nice pre in the "welcome stack" outside had speakers about three feet from each other, so basically worthless). Since they had the MLs setup in the "performance audio" room I thought I’d get a demo.

 

Too bad the sales guy was actually nice, no-pressure, and didn’t display a hint of being aggravated at my requests. The word budget never came out of his mouth.

 

BTW, I’m spending the week in Chicago, checking out some local dealers. There’s a ProAc dealer I really must visit. I think one of them has MLs or Mangepans. We’ll see.

 

They may have good equipment but how they are squashed together and not setup properly is not good for listening. It was just the setup is all.

[tmtomh]

28 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

They may have good equipment but how they are squashed together and not setup properly is not good for listening. It was just the setup is all.

 

Yes - and in my opinion @GUTB knew that before he started the thread.

[botrytis]

2 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

 

Yes - and in my opinion @GUTB knew that before he started the thread.

 

Benefit of the doubt