Lyngdorf TDAI-3400

[skatbelt]

I had a TDAI-3400 in my system for three days for a direct comparison with my own TDAI-2200. If anyone is interested I am willing to write a little more about it... :)

[Panelhead]

  I would like to hear your thoughts. I like the gear, but have only owned the KRK Ergo with Room Perfect circuit. 

  I have really decided speakers is where the rubber hits the road. Better speakers = better sound. Better dacs, amps, power supplies, cables, software, and other items sometimes improve the sound. 

[Wlaad]

I would like to hear it too. (TDAI-2200 owner.)

[Bullitt5094]

On 6/28/2018 at 1:09 PM, Panelhead said:

  I would like to hear your thoughts. I like the gear, but have only owned the KRK Ergo with Room Perfect circuit. 

  I have really decided speakers is where the rubber hits the road. Better speakers = better sound. Better dacs, amps, power supplies, cables, software, and other items sometimes improve the sound. 

I disagree with the latter part of this statement. I agree with speakers being a priority, but IF you have high quality speakers, what you feed them with will be reflected in their output. That's what makes them good, right? And to put a point on it... upgrading the weakest part of the signal chain, speakers, amp, dac whatever, will generally give the largest improvement in sound. The most difficult thing to do in the chain is a "transducer" that changes the type of energy. Mechanical to electrical i.e. a turntable cartridge. Or a speaker, electrical to mechanical. That conversion is the most difficult to "pull off" correctly. But the other processing hardware is also important. Look for the weak link.

[koupa]

What's the internal processing? The previous model was at 24/96. This one?

[skatbelt]

On 7/20/2018 at 7:08 PM, Wlaad said:

I would like to hear it too. (TDAI-2200 owner.)

 

I am sorry for this very late reply. Other things kept me busy the last few months.

In a direct comparison with my TDAI-2200, my conclusion was that the 3400 has a just a bit more grip on the low end, whereas the 2200 sounds more refined in the higher frequencies. This may have to do with the fact that the 3400 was almost new and not yet fully burned in but my suspicion is that the many add-ons (wifi module, bluetooth module, USB connections, network connectivity etc) also have a downside and increase the EMI/RFI and jitter in the device. Another big difference is that the 2200 has a big beefy linear power supply where the 3400 uses a switching one. I was shocked by the difference in weight (and also in build quality). The 3400 doesn't feel cheap but can't compete with the 2200 on this aspect in my opinion. The latter is beautifully manufactured with thick aluminium plates.

 

The high end ADC module of the 3400 is on par with the 2200. Not surprising because the same converter chip is used.

 

All serious direct comparison was done with RoomPerfect disengaged.

 

RoomPerfect on the 3400 is clearly more mature, powerful and fool proof. As a streamer and DAC it reaches a high level (comparable with an Auralic Vega G2 Streaming DAC I had the chance of listening to) but it can't compete with my DCS NB / Chord DAVE combo connected to the 3400's ADC module (so even with the extra A to D conversion!). 

 

Overall, I think the 3400 represents a great concept, a real all-in-one with a very decent streamer and pretty much all wired and non-wired connections and protocols that one could wish for. As an amplifier it can compete with the best in the <10K market. If you strive for transparency and neutrality that is. It's room correction power makes it one of a kind in my opinion (to disbelievers of this concept I advise: try before you judge).

 

I didn't buy the 3400 (yet) because the overall feeling was that it entered the market just a little too soon. I have only used a limited number of functions really intensively, but I already encountered strange and buggy behaviours. Probably all in the software domain and understandable for a device with so many features but nevertheless. To me it felt like a product that is still in beta. Not quite solid yet. I saw that the firmware was something like 0.9.x. Lyngdorf may also find that he does not deserve a 1.0 status yet....

I asked Lyngdorf directly if disabling its different modules in the sofware settings would really shut down this part of the hardware. The answer was no except for the wifi module. Not the answer I hoped for. The streaming module/ethernet input and the bluetooth modules are always active awaiting commands. A source for unnecessary EMI/RFI and jitter if you don't use them as is the case in my setup.

 

 

[Wlaad]

Skatbelt, thank you for this thorough insight, much appreciated.

[Cortes]

7 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

I am sorry for this very late reply. Other things kept me busy the last few months.

In a direct comparison with my TDAI-2200, my conclusion was that the 3400 has a just a bit more grip on the low end, whereas the 2200 sounds more refined in the higher frequencies. This may have to do with the fact that the 3400 was almost new and not yet fully burned in but my suspicion is that the many add-ons (wifi module, bluetooth module, USB connections, network connectivity etc) also have a downside and increase the EMI/RFI and jitter in the device. Another big difference is that the 2200 has a big beefy linear power supply where the 3400 uses a switching one. I was shocked by the difference in weight (and also in build quality). The 3400 doesn't feel cheap but can't compete with the 2200 on this aspect in my opinion. The latter is beautifully manufactured with thick aluminium plates.

 

The high end ADC module of the 3400 is on par with the 2200. Not surprising because the same converter chip is used.

 

All serious direct comparison was done with RoomPerfect disengaged.

 

RoomPerfect on the 3400 is clearly more mature, powerful and fool proof. As a streamer and DAC it reaches a high level (comparable with an Auralic Vega G2 Streaming DAC I had the chance of listening to) but it can't compete with my DCS NB / Chord DAVE combo connected to the 3400's ADC module (so even with the extra A to D conversion!). 

 

Overall, I think the 3400 represents a great concept, a real all-in-one with a very decent streamer and pretty much all wired and non-wired connections and protocols that one could wish for. As an amplifier it can compete with the best in the <10K market. If you strive for transparency and neutrality that is. It's room correction power makes it one of a kind in my opinion (to disbelievers of this concept I advise: try before you judge).

 

I didn't buy the 3400 (yet) because the overall feeling was that it entered the market just a little too soon. I have only used a limited number of functions really intensively, but I already encountered strange and buggy behaviours. Probably all in the software domain and understandable for a device with so many features but nevertheless. To me it felt like a product that is still in beta. Not quite solid yet. I saw that the firmware was something like 0.9.x. Lyngdorf may also find that he does not deserve a 1.0 status yet....

I asked Lyngdorf directly if disabling its different modules in the sofware settings would really shut down this part of the hardware. The answer was no except for the wifi module. Not the answer I hoped for. The streaming module/ethernet input and the bluetooth modules are always active awaiting commands. A source for unnecessary EMI/RFI and jitter if you don't use them as is the case in my setup.

 

 

 

@skatbelt

 

fantastic summary, better than tons of prof. reviews. 

 

May I ask you about the the DAC-> (ADC->DAC in Lyngdorf) conversion?.  After the new  digitilization of the signal  the DAC upstream (your DAVE) is still important to the final SQ of your system?. The answer is obvious from your setup, but it would be great if you could ellaborate since it goes against some common audiophile mantras. 

 

I ask that as well because I want to 'upgrade' my Proac 1SC to maybe some SAM Genelecs, as the 3-ways 8331 or 8341. However, I'm afraid that might be not an upgrade due the limitations of the ADC-DAC of Genelecs. Genelec technicians at genelec  forum say it does not matter wheather the gennies are fed digital vial AES o analogue, wich makes me suspicious about some lack of sensibility of the components upstream, which is just the opposite to great hi-fi systems.

 

I have a decent tube amp, maybe getting DSP with some  good passive monitors in the 4k range is a better option, but the simplicity of quality active monitors is very attractive. 

 

 

 

 

[skatbelt]

1 hour ago, Cortes said:

 

@skatbelt

 

fantastic summary, better than tons of prof. reviews. 

 

May I ask you about the the DAC-> (ADC->DAC in Lyngdorf) conversion?.  After the new  digitilization of the signal  the DAC upstream (your DAVE) is still important to the final SQ of your system?. The answer is obvious from your setup, but it would be great if you could ellaborate since it goes against some common audiophile mantras. 

 

I ask that as well because I want to 'upgrade' my Proac 1SC to maybe some SAM Genelecs, as the 3-ways 8331 or 8341. However, I'm afraid that might be not an upgrade due the limitations of the ADC-DAC of Genelecs. Genelec technicians at genelec  forum say it does not matter wheather the gennies are fed digital vial AES o analogue, wich makes me suspicious about some lack of sensibility of the components upstream, which is just the opposite to great hi-fi systems.

 

I have a decent tube amp, maybe getting DSP with some  good passive monitors in the 4k range is a better option, but the simplicity of quality active monitors is very attractive. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Cortes,

Thank you for your kind words. In reply to your question, I don't want to prentend to have full technological knowledge on what is going on but based on a lot of reading and logical reasoning my insight now is that the way a digital source is reconstructed in combination with jitter reduction is key. In Chord DAC's a lot of attention is paid to address both these issues. Reconstruction is done by filters with up to a million taps (DAVE when combined with one of the upscalers). Very low jitter is also a merit of DCS's Network Bridge.

 

ADC is known to be an 'easier' task to execute well. So my take is that Lyngdorf amplifiers perform so good because of their amplification topology (and lossless DSP by design), not because they excel in digital (source) to digital (fuel) conversion. Does this last sentence make sense?

 

Greetings,

Sander

[Cortes]

@skatbelt

 

so at the end the Lyngdorf  3400 looks a quite a good value, in hifi terms.  For instance, the Vega G2  DAC costs almost the same as the Lyngdorf. I've seen  other well regarded products that incorporate DSP, such as the Legacy Wavelet, but  in this case it just provides preamp functions.   

 

There's a smaller version, the Lyngdorf  TDAI-2170, but there is not much info comparing both products. 

 

Thanks a lot. 

 

[Wlaad]

There is this thread, plenty of information and comparisons, but it is giant read...

https://www.avforums.com/threads/lyngdorf-discussion-thread.1580956/

[skatbelt]

On 11/14/2018 at 11:32 AM, Cortes said:

@skatbelt

 

so at the end the Lyngdorf  3400 looks a quite a good value, in hifi terms.  For instance, the Vega G2  DAC costs almost the same as the Lyngdorf. I've seen  other well regarded products that incorporate DSP, such as the Legacy Wavelet, but  in this case it just provides preamp functions.   

 

There's a smaller version, the Lyngdorf  TDAI-2170, but there is not much info comparing both products. 

 

Thanks a lot. 

 

 

When introduced I compared the 2170 with my 2200, more or less the same way I did recently with the 3400. The 2170 misses the authority of the other two. That is why al lot of owners of the 2170 add the separate SDA2400 power amplifier. I have never heard this combination. The 2170 also misses the streaming part of the 3400. I believe RoomPerfect and the pre-amp and crossover functions are essentially the same in the 2170 and 3400.

[Cortes]

14 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

When introduced I compared the 2170 with my 2200, more or less the same way I did recently with the 3400. The 2170 misses the authority of the other two. That is why al lot of owners of the 2170 add the separate SDA2400 power amplifier. I have never heard this combination. The 2170 also misses the streaming part of the 3400. I believe RoomPerfect and the pre-amp and crossover functions are essentially the same in the 2170 and 3400.

 

I just checked  the  Lindemann BL-10, and it's  rated at @83db. So  maybe you were experiencing a lack of power due to the low sensibility of the BL-10. 

 

Thanks agains for sharing. 

 

 

[skatbelt]

3 hours ago, Cortes said:

 

I just checked  the  Lindemann BL-10, and it's  rated at @83db. So  maybe you were experiencing a lack of power due to the low sensibility of the BL-10. 

 

Thanks agains for sharing. 

 

 

 

You're right,  the Lindemann's are fairly difficult to drive. Even without using them full range (but with a relatively low crossover point at 64Hz).

[skatbelt]

About a month ago I had the opportunity to make a good deal on a 3 months old demo TDAI-3400. I couldn't resist and I am very happy I didn't. I took more time to compare this new model to the TDAI-2200 I already owned and at the end it was clear that the older model had to go. In the way I use it, the TDAI-3400 is the better amplifier on every aspect. Not by al large margin, except for the control over the lower end of the frequency spectrum. The slight harshness I previously observed in the higher frequencies was clearly a burn-in issue and gone in the unit I own now. 

 

Earlier I wrote about my somewhat counter-intuitive setup with a Chord DAVE feeding the TDAI's analogue input module. So introducing an extra ADC. This setup is SQ-wise superior to directly connect my dCS Network Bridge to the TDAI. The latter setup is in its turn clearly better than feeding the TDAI directly via USB or Ethernet.

 

But back to the Chord DAVE. As described earlier in this thread, my idea is that it's better digital reconstruction abilities of the DAVE lead to the better SQ. This got me thinking. What will happen if I connect one of the Chord M Scalers directly to the digital input of my TDAI? Would this give me the opportunity to use Rob Watts's filtering without introducing the extra ADC (and make my DAVE obsolete - investment wise not a bad scenario!)? I understand this will probably be a rhetorical question and I need to find out myself. But may be someone did try this already.

 

This scenario would also be worth exploring for Devialet owners. The Devialet ADC is known to be not really state of the art, so adding an external DAC is not a wise option but may be M Scaler technology is. The same counts for Kii three owners and other all digital products.

[Audrius]

Hi,

   wanted to check if anyone has tried Chord M Scaler into TDAI 3400? I have chord Hugo 2, so I consider using this dac with scaler or connecting scaler directly to Lyngdorf.

   Currently I am streaming through Roon into Aqvox AQ-Switch SE to TDAI3400. Lan cables: Supra cat8.

Previously best SQ was from Chord Hugo.

   After I have introduced the switch and cat8 Lan cables, I could not hear significant difference with external dac. So currently I do not have a need for external dac. 

  But I am still wondering if SQ could be improved by adding Chord scaler.

Thanks, Audrius

  

 

[yyz]

I have what is likely a simple question but I want to double check before I buy a 3400. 

 

If you use an external amp connected via the analogue XLR outputs of the Lyngdorf 3400 can you get the RoomPerfect corrected analogue signal to be sent to an external amp? I understand that the non-RoomPerfect analogue signal can be sent to an external amp (i tested it). Is it possible to send a RoomPerfect correct analogue signal to an external amp?