Better Roon Endpoints?

[Miska]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I really do hope Roon will do an iOS Brigde, and add support for older iOS devices.

I think this is a very good start for people to start with streaming using an extremely cheap endpoint.

 

And of cause with the Belkin Rockstar you not even need a DAC. Just a 3,5 mm to RCA cable, and you’re up an running withe your very old preamp.

 

Will we see NAA for iOS ? ?

 

I honestly think a "NAA DAC" using RaspberryPi3 + HifiBerry DAC+ Pro (RCA or XLR model) powered from something like iFi iPower is both cheaper and better...  And since software is available as SDcard image it is very easy to setup. Need to add one line to config.txt and that's it.

 

For some reason Roon doesn't provide ARM versions of Roon Bridge.

 

[HardrockInMiniMac]

This is really awesome. I am using the Apple USB to Camera cable as advised.

 

I am just trying iPhone 8 and iPad 2017 as Roon endpoints and both just sound better than a direct cable connection on all accounts, especially bass is fundamentally better. 

 

It gets clearly better once more with the battery charging cable off.

 

Wow, MacMini and NAS are away in a different room now where the Router is to the better of everything.

 

Miska, I will receive SOTM SMS200 Ultra soon and then HQP NAA will come in place again ;-)

 

I would certainly consider a wireless connection to the SOTM by integrating a wireless bridge and connecting a cable from there. 

 

All this noise interference from PSUs and network cables is just crazy and this is a blind test safe showcase.

 

I finally hear what I got all the IFI iUSB3.0 and cables for. Its effect had been completely outwashed by my setup and what a waste do spend thousands on Lyngdorf when screwing up the whole signal in the first place. My bad, hope it helps other readers to avoid this crap.

 

Thanks for this fantastic idea,

Chris

[R1200CL]

@HardrockInMiniMac If I remember correctly, you can search among @plissken many posts. I think you will find some confirmation there about your findings regarding wireless is the preferred way.

 

I personally prefer the JSGT with those very few known switches that do blocking and power the switch with a LPS-1. And I hope one day UpTone Audio will produse a switch according to how Superdad has suggested such an audiophile switch should be designed. 

 

Dedicated endpoints is almost certain the way to go for best SQ. 

 

You may find JSSG very helpfull on cabeling. Have a look in the DIY DC Power cable thread

 

 

[R1200CL]

Can anyone confirm this will show up as an endpoint ? 

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm#spex

 

Wonder how that SPDIF SQ is ?

Maybe better than we would expect ?

 

EDIT

Just been confirmed it works only as AirPlay. 

(Not so good then)

[Miska]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

Can anyone confirm this will show up as an endpoint ? 

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm#spex

 

Wonder how that SPDIF SQ is ?

Maybe better than we would expect ?

 

EDIT

Just been confirmed it works only as AirPlay. 

(Not so good then)

 

Depends on what you have following the AirPort Express... If it is fully reclocked, then it may be OK. But it is limited to 44.1/16 only.

 

I consider Google Chromecast Audio as better alternative, works from multiple OS and supports multiple sampling rates.

 

[R1200CL]

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I consider Google Chromecast Audio as better alternative, works from multiple OS and supports multiple sampling rates.

 

 .....and I understand Chromecast RAAT support is on the roadmap at Roon. 

As well we all understand RAAT will never be supported by Apple. 

Just think if it was.

 

Here is a true Apple faboy 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/how-to-create-a-whole-house-music-system.htm

[Cebolla]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 .....and I understand Chromecast RAAT support is on the roadmap at Roon. 

As well we all understand RAAT will never be supported by Apple. 

Just think if it was.

 

Are you certain about that?

 

It's more likely to be the other way around, ie, Roon Server supporting the Google Cast streaming technology, allowing you to use a Chromecast device as a Roon Endpoint without it having any RAAT knowledge. So an addition to the Roon Server's current 'special' support for some non-RAAT technologies: HQPlayer, Squeezebox/Slim and not forgetting Apple's own AirPlay.

 

Which begs the question - isn't it about time the Roon Server had bog standard UPnP/DLNA support in its list of 'specials'?

[Miska]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 .....and I understand Chromecast RAAT support is on the roadmap at Roon. 

As well we all understand RAAT will never be supported by Apple. 

Just think if it was.

 

Here is a true Apple faboy 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/how-to-create-a-whole-house-music-system.htm

 

It doesn't have to be supported by Apple, because iOS apps support it. For example Spotify and Tidal apps running on iOS can utilize Chromecast Audio. That's what I use every Friday to play one of my favorite Friday playlists (for example "Night Rider" on Spotify) to living room stereo system. Then I just run the Philips Hue LED color lamps through Light DJ app.

 

[rickca]

DeletedOHLER Konnect offers a foot warmer, personal cleansing bidet, heated seat, ambient lighting and even your favorite tunes.

[beerandmusic]

On 1/12/2018 at 6:09 AM, HardrockInMiniMac said:

I finally hear what I got all the IFI iUSB3.0 and cables for. Its effect had been completely outwashed by my setup and what a waste do spend thousands on Lyngdorf when screwing up the whole signal in the first place. My bad, hope it helps other readers to avoid this crap.

 

can you clarify this statement?

what is your chain where you are now happy?

 

[davide256]

17 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

Are you certain about that?

 

It's more likely to be the other way around, ie, Roon Server supporting the Google Cast streaming technology, allowing you to use a Chromecast device as a Roon Endpoint without it having any RAAT knowledge. So an addition to the Roon Server's current 'special' support for some non-RAAT technologies: HQPlayer, Squeezebox/Slim and not forgetting Apple's own AirPlay.

 

Which begs the question - isn't it about time the Roon Server had bog standard UPnP/DLNA support in its list of 'specials'?

Why? I find my Roon core server with locally stored music sounds better than music served from Synology NAS.

[LarryMagoo]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

Why? I find my Roon core server with locally stored music sounds better than music served from Synology NAS.

 David,

 

Nice that you mentioned this...I run RoonServer from my MAC mini where my library is stored (1TB SSD).  Other folks have told me to separate into Core and Library.   But I simply cannot believe getting and setting up a NAS, yards and yards of CAT 6 cable, more Connectors/Connections, when my 12VDC MAC Mini run through my DDS Hydra Z gives black silence between the notes...

[davide256]

3 hours ago, LarryMagoo said:

 David,

 

Nice that you mentioned this...I run RoonServer from my MAC mini where my library is stored (1TB SSD).  Other folks have told me to separate into Core and Library.   But I simply cannot believe getting and setting up a NAS, yards and yards of CAT 6 cable, more Connectors/Connections, when my 12VDC MAC Mini run through my DDS Hydra Z gives black silence between the notes...

It was true for UPNP, but I'm not finding it so for Roon. What bugs me is that with the microRendu there wasn't that much difference between UPNP and Roon NAA, I'd really like to understand why. Unfortunately I don't know of a way to stream UPNP with iPhone/iPad. I'd really like to try that comparison, to see if they sound the same or to verify if Roon endpoint performance depends on CPU power. I will caveat that when I compared UPNP/Roon before Roon  could be used on iPhone/iPad, I was using Synology NAS  for file server as all my prior testing had led me to believe locally stored music on a PC would sound worse.
 

[asdf1000]

Allo USBridge arrives later this week.

 

In the mean time this weekend I used just a plain all Raspberry Pi3 and loaded DietPi and set it up for WiFi.

 

Powered with my 20100mAh TP-Link power bank: http://www.tp-link.com/au/products/details/cat-5689_TL-PB20100.html

 

Just a simple microUSB cable from the powerbank to the Pi3, the microUSB cable to my Hugo2.

 

Now the Pi3 has notoriously bad WiFi , especially for high sample rates. It also has well known bad USB audio performance, due to the shared bus I believe, especially for high sample rates, again.

 

But in my testing, anything up to PCM192kHz including DSD64 via DoP, there were no connection or performance issues.

 

It sounded great !

 

The Allo USBridge should be much much better, and it comes with a proper wireless adapter, so higher sample rates shouldn't be an issue. Plus it has a much 'cleaner' USB audio output.

 

The more I test these battery based USB audio solutions (which have their own issues, as I've already mentioned earlier in the thread - no such thing as a free lunch) the more I realise the coupling to mains power affects SQ even more than I always knew/thought.

 

 

[Cebolla]

On 1/14/2018 at 2:50 PM, davide256 said:

Why? I find my Roon core server with locally stored music sounds better than music served from Synology NAS.

 

I think you misunderstood my post. I meant for the Roon core server to support UPnP/DLNA, so that UPnP/DLNA renderers could be used as Roon Endpoints (in keeping with your thread), ie, without the UPnP/DLNA renderers having to know anything about RAAT. So just like the Roon core server's 'special' support for HQPlayer, Squeezebox, AirPlay and in the future, Chromecast (as mentioned by @R1200CL).

[davide256]

3 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

I think you misunderstood my post. I meant for the Roon core server to support UPnP/DLNA, so that UPnP/DLNA renderers could be used as Roon Endpoints (in keeping with your thread), ie, without the UPnP/DLNA renderers having to know anything about RAAT. So just like the Roon core server's 'special' support for HQPlayer, Squeezebox, AirPlay and in the future, Chromecast (as mentioned by @R1200CL).

Perhaps I misunderstand Roon; I thought their argument was that UPNP and other streaming protocols are flawed, hence why they developed RAAT.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

Perhaps I misunderstand Roon; I thought their argument was that UPNP and other streaming protocols are flawed, hence why they developed RAAT.

 

UPnP just doesn't offer such capabilities that RAAT or NAA want to have (assuming here that RAAT is quite similar to my NAA)... Same goes if you compare UPnP to AES67/Dante/RAVENNA or AVB.

[Cebolla]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

Perhaps I misunderstand Roon; I thought their argument was that UPNP and other streaming protocols are flawed, hence why they developed RAAT.

 

They actually singled out UPnP/DLNA from the other popular protocols as 'flawed', from what I remember. The obvious contradiction is Roon's support for Squeezebox type devices, the irony being you can easily & successfully get UPnP devices to be controlled by Logitech Media Server and stream from it, via the UPnPBridge LMS plugin - they appear as Squeezelite devices to LMS and can therefore connect to it.

 

So it may even be possible to use the same UPnPBridge helper application to unofficially get UPnP renderers as Squeezelite devices to be used as Roon Endpoints. The Roon core server is essentially emulating LMS to 'trick' Squeezebox type devices into connecting to it, being controlled by it and streaming from it, thus acting as Roon Endpoints.

[asdf1000]

While waiting for my All USBridge to arrive, I have to say the Pi3 WiFi solution destroys the iPhone/iPad in terms of battery life (battery consumption).

 

My TP-Link TL-PB20100 powering the Pi3 played for 10 hours from last night to this morning and still had 50% battery left in the morning.

 

I suspect the USBridge won't be as power frugal as the Pi3 but will have much lower noise output with it's low noise linear regulators.

 

My listening sessions are only ~2 hours late evening, so adding some margin, if the USBridge can run for 6+ hours on my powerbank I'll be super happy.

 

The real test will be DSD256 and PCM768kHz (the max my Hugo2 can do on Linux) over the USBridge WiFi connection, in addition to battery consumption.

 

 

[davide256]

 

On 1/16/2018 at 2:35 AM, Em2016 said:

While waiting for my All USBridge to arrive, I have to say the Pi3 WiFi solution destroys the iPhone/iPad in terms of battery life (battery consumption).

 

My TP-Link TL-PB20100 powering the Pi3 played for 10 hours from last night to this morning and still had 50% battery left in the morning.

 

I suspect the USBridge won't be as power frugal as the Pi3 but will have much lower noise output with it's low noise linear regulators.

 

My listening sessions are only ~2 hours late evening, so adding some margin, if the USBridge can run for 6+ hours on my powerbank I'll be super happy.

 

The real test will be DSD256 and PCM768kHz (the max my Hugo2 can do on Linux) over the USBridge WiFi connection, in addition to battery consumption.

 

 

Battery isn't proving an issue now for iPhone using the USB3 CCK cable with auxiliary Ankar battery . Having the iPhone ring through the system during play is .

Love to hear how you feel the Allo device stacks up for SQ against later generation iDevices

[skatbelt]

9 hours ago, davide256 said:

 

Battery isn't proving an issue now for iPhone using the USB3 CCK cable with auxiliary Ankar battery . Having the iPhone ring through the system during play is .

Love to hear how you feel the Allo device stacks up for SQ against later generation iDevices

 

You can avoid calls by turning 'Mobile Data' off... Side note: I found that all lightning port charging devices I have available (also battery packs) degrade the sound.

 

A question: does anyone know why my Chord DAVE has no problems seeing my iPhone as Roon Endpoint but the Mutec MC-3+ USB does? Has this something to do with powered USB?

[asdf1000]

11 hours ago, davide256 said:

 

Battery isn't proving an issue now for iPhone using the USB3 CCK cable with auxiliary Ankar battery . Having the iPhone ring through the system during play is .

Love to hear how you feel the Allo device stacks up for SQ against later generation iDevices

 

In progress.

 

I brought out the big gun powerbank, my Chargetech PLUG 42,000 mAh to power the USBridge.

 

It came fully assembled which is nice.Setting up the WiFi with their own supplied dongle was a pain. Instructions are scattered across this forum and the Roon forum but it's all out there. I wish it was one page in their manual.

 

I never use up-sampling with my Hugo2 but I'm up-sampling to DSD256 via DoP just to test wireless connectivity, which was flawless with the iPhone, as you would expect and hopeless with the RPi3, as expected with it's shared bus.

 

There's no connection issues at all with the USBridge with DSD256 via DoP and PCM768kHz. The limiting factor will be your own wireless network of course but the USBridge is rock solid - no dropouts.

 

By design this has a much better regulated low noise USB audio output than the iPhone. 

It sounds great right out of the box. My phone can stay with me, away from the HiFi gear. You can of course turn off the phone's cell connection but I prefer not to, for emergencies etc.

 

I need to give it some days of relaxed listening to properly assess if it would replace the ultraRendu... No need to rush these things.

 

I've already got the metal case for the USBridge on the way though. It's a keeper, whether in my main setup or around the house as another endpoint.

 

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

I don't find a need to power the USbridge board and Sparky board separately.

 

It's less clutter too with just a single DC power cable going straight to the USBridge, so I've re-arranged.

 

Really nice sounding. The metal case which is coming may help a little with RFI but I don't mind the see through look.

 

I've got a StarTech USB voltage/current tester coming too. Just curious how much current the USBridge draws, continuously. I know the microRendu is <200mA continuous and <400mA on boot. The ultra isn't that much more.

 

I should add, there's a jumper that needs to be removed when you first get it. Very easy to do. And the DC input is a 2.5mm so as per my photo I'm using a USB to 2.1mm DC cable > 2.1mm to 2.5mm DC adapter > USBridge.

 

 

[davide256]

On 1/17/2018 at 10:11 PM, Em2016 said:

 

In progress.

 

I brought out the big gun powerbank, my Chargetech PLUG 42,000 mAh to power the USBridge.

 

It came fully assembled which is nice.Setting up the WiFi with their own supplied dongle was a pain. Instructions are scattered across this forum and the Roon forum but it's all out there. I wish it was one page in their manual.

 

I never use up-sampling with my Hugo2 but I'm up-sampling to DSD256 via DoP just to test wireless connectivity, which was flawless with the iPhone, as you would expect and hopeless with the RPi3, as expected with it's shared bus.

 

There's no connection issues at all with the USBridge with DSD256 via DoP and PCM768kHz. The limiting factor will be your own wireless network of course but the USBridge is rock solid - no dropouts.

 

By design this has a much better regulated low noise USB audio output than the iPhone. 

It sounds great right out of the box. My phone can stay with me, away from the HiFi gear. You can of course turn off the phone's cell connection but I prefer not to, for emergencies etc.

 

I need to give it some days of relaxed listening to properly assess if it would replace the ultraRendu... No need to rush these things.

 

I've already got the metal case for the USBridge on the way though. It's a keeper, whether in my main setup or around the house as another endpoint.

 

 

 

 

 

Still curious. An Apple Touch would run about the same price as the Allo solution and would be far easier to setup. I always try to correlate to reviewer opinions, when I look at Hans Beekhuyzen's reviews it appears he ranked SQ as follows

 

1. SoTM Ultra SMS200

2. Sonore MicroRendu

3. SoTM SMS200

4. Allo USbridge

 

[asdf1000]

13 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Still curious. An Apple Touch would run about the same price as the Allo solution and would be far easier to setup.

 

Yup, I mentioned the iPod Touch on your other thread. I think that’s a good option. Allows you to keep your iPhone working as a phone, nearby if you want. 

 

16 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I always try to correlate to reviewer opinions, when I look at Hans Beekhuyzen's reviews it appears he ranked SQ as follows

 

1. SoTM Ultra SMS200

2. Sonore MicroRendu

3. SoTM SMS200

4. Allo USbridge

 

 

Too many variables. The biggest being personal taste / preference. Many prefer the SMS-200 Ultra but I preferred the ultraRendu after having both.

 

It’s not necessarily the USBridge I’m THAT interested in. The others are better in comparison (in design / components etc), with all things being equal. But compared to the others, it’s the only one of those listed that allows you to run it off 5Vdc, which is what got me interested in hearing it running off batteries and WiFi (ie like the iPhone endpoint).

 

More listening due.