Help Trouble Shooting Skip-to-next-track problem in my Streaming setup

[sockpit]

My streaming setup frequently skips to the next track unexpectedly while playing, especially long symphonic movements.  I've little understanding of how any of this magic works, so let me describe my setup and perhaps someone will be kind enough to advise me about where the problem might lie.  It occurs often enough, once and hour perhaps, to just ignore. It's annoying to sit down to listen seriously to a 4 movement piece, and have it skip in the middle of mvmt. II on to mvmt. III  And it always skips to the next track, never over a track. Ah, it just did it again, this time listening to Keith Jarrett, so it's not a musical taste issue

 

Here's my setup:  

 

I stream Qobuz via Lumin or Kazoo (as controllers) and a uRendu (renderer) using its DNLA setting and the BubbleUPnP server program on the uRendu (to create an Open Home Renderer).  The DAC is an Exogal Comet for what it's worth.  The uRendu is hardwired by ethernet cable back to my Google Fiber box (plenty of bandwidth there!).

 

Observations:  It seems not to matter if Kazoo or Lumin app is the controller.  It skips to next track from both when it feels like it.  When I use the excellent Qobuz app as the controller and player via Shairport setting on the uRendu, the skipping does not occur.  

 

Some theories (from a guy who understands nothing about how the above work together):

 

1. The problem is at the source: Qobuz is sending a hiccup from its server.  Unlikely if its own app never skips?

2. The problem has to do with BubbleUPnP (doesn't seem widely reported so far as I've google, but I'm not much good at that either)

3. The problem has to do with DNLA uRendu (doesn't seem widely reported on this site)

4. The problem is with my ISP--Google Fiber is hiccuping or cutting out and skipping a track is a manifestation of that?  Just a wild guess.

 

That's about as scientific as I can get about it . . .   Assistance appreciated.  I could just use the Qobuz iOS app, but I'd prefer to avoid Shairport and use DNLA instead for SQ reasons.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[sockpit]

Bump for help.  It’s a serious problem in an otherwise flawless setup?

 

Has no one else encountered it?

[sockpit]

Haven’t gotten any help on this problem at all.  I expect better from you folks!  ?

 

So here is a Qobuz album that I don’t think I have ever heard the first track all the way through.  It is 19 minute movement, and it always skips about 1/3 in.

 

Listen to the album Tchaikovsky : Symphony No.6 by Teodor Currentzis on Qobuzhttp://open.qobuz.com/album/0886446239934 
App available on qobuz.com/apps

 

Now I suppose this could be a problem at Qobuz end with the source, but if someone tells me they listened to the whole track via Qobuz without skip, then it would appear to be a perfect example for me of a repeatable problem in my network or gear (uRendu, eg).

 

Thanks in advance to the European soul who tries to replicate the problem . . . 

 

 

 

 

[sockpit]

Just to be clear:  play it with Qobuz streaming as source, but via lumin or Kazoo as controller. 

[church_mouse]

@sockpit

 

Movement 1, 16/44.1 Flac

 

1. Using the Qobuz function in Audirvana - streamed flawlessly.

 

2. Using JRiver/BubbleUPNP with Lumin as the controller - streamed flawlessly.

 

Does this help?

[sockpit]

@church_mouse

 

Thanks.  This seems to show that the problem isn't at the source: Qobuz.  This is confirmed as well by my success in streaming over the qobuz iOS app (via microRendu's Shairport setting).

 

When I use Lumin as controller (or Kazoo), that's when I have problems.  These controllers are sending the stream to my microRendu on the DNLA setting.  BubbleUPnP is installed and working in open home mode on the microRendu.

 

My home network is very stable (google fiber).

 

Maybe @vortecjr at Sonore could give this some thought . . .

[rodrigaj]

@sockpitDo you have more than one OpenHome control point that is active?

 

Edit: If you do, try disabling all of the control points except the one that your main listening is done on. Also, if your music is on a NAS try ejecting the NAS from any other computers on the network.

 

If you still have problems, I can't help as I am not a Qobuz user, but I am on OpenHome emulation, using Tidal and Lumin app on an iPad. What you describe sounds like a request is being made by another controller point. 

[Cebolla]

2 hours ago, rodrigaj said:

@sockpitDo you have more than one OpenHome control point that is active?

 

Edit: If you do, try disabling all of the control points except the one that your main listening is done on. Also, if your music is on a NAS try ejecting the NAS from any other computers on the network.

 

No, the whole point of OpenHome is that the current playlist is owned and therefore used entirely by the OpenHome renderer during normal playback, without any interaction with the OpenHome control point(s). This allows you to use more than one OpenHome control point with an OpenHome renderer, or even no control point at all, after playback has started and the renderer will carry on playing the entire playlist regardless.

 

However, the microRendu is actually a standard UPnP/DLNA renderer, with OpenHome renderer emulation being provided by the BubbleUPnP Server. So it is possible that  a rogue standard UPnP/DLNA control point could interfere with the microRendu's emulated OpenHome renderer playback, though I'm not sure if it would cause the skipping problem. 

[Cebolla]

@sockpitIt may be a microRendu resource issue running its own BubbleUPnP Server. To isolate the UPnP/DLNA renderer (via the created OpenHome renderer) from the security tokens used by its online music streaming services,  the BubbleUPnP Server proxies the audio file tracks provided by both its Qobuz and TIDAL connections. So the microRendu effectively requires double the resources allocated to audio file streaming, when using its internal BubbleUPnP Server for Qobuz streaming, than it requires when using an external BubbleUPnP Server for Qobuz streaming. It's possible that when streaming a particularly long Qobuz track the microRendu runs out of resources before the entire track has been streamed, causing the abrupt end of that track and skipping to the next

 

Have you tried the microRendu with an external BubbleUPnP Server (eg on a computer, NAS, etc) to create its OpenHome Renderer and provide Qobuz access, as opposed to its internal BubbleUPnP Server?

[rodrigaj]

@CebollaAs usual you are correct. But I think your second paragraph is more to the point. So here is my take on OpenHome emulation and skipping: The playlist resides with the Bubbleupnp server / NAS not in the OpenHome renderer. So isn't it possible that another control point or computer could be interfering? 

 

The skipping has happened to me on a few occasions, but to seldom (about 2 - 3 times) to be able to troubleshoot. 

Edit: Never mind, I just read your second post.

[Cebolla]

The OP is using the microRendu's own BubbleUPnP Server, rather than one on a NAS, but I do get your point - it does have to be a standard UPnP/DLNA control point that's causing the problem though.

[rodrigaj]

30 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

The OP is using the microRendu's own BubbleUPnP Server, rather than one on a NAS, but I do get your point - it does have to be a standard UPnP/DLNA control point that's causing the problem though.

Yes, I missed that the newer Rendu's have their own BubbleUPnP Server. My 4 year old original Sonore Rendu did not and relied on the NAS to handle BubbleUPnP Server which worked quite well (as does my new PS Audio DS Dac / Bridge II combination).

[sockpit]

Helpful.  At work now, but will study this carefully tonight or over the weekend!  Aside from occasionally having both Kazoo and Lumin open at the same time on my iPad, I know of no other control point that could be interfering.

 

As for Bubbleupnp, I can try installing it on my laptop (I have no NAS, only files on the laptop, which I now play seldom, because I can fetch almost all of it from qobuz) and disabling it on the microRendu.  But that would be a shame, because I've come to like not having my computer open and active when listening.

[sockpit]

On 1/26/2018 at 7:40 AM, Cebolla said:

@sockpitIt may be a microRendu resource issue running its own BubbleUPnP Server. To isolate the UPnP/DLNA renderer (via the created OpenHome renderer) from the security tokens used by its online music streaming services,  the BubbleUPnP Server proxies the audio file tracks provided by both its Qobuz and TIDAL connections. So the microRendu effectively requires double the resources allocated to audio file streaming, when using its internal BubbleUPnP Server for Qobuz streaming, than it requires when using an external BubbleUPnP Server for Qobuz streaming. It's possible that when streaming a particularly long Qobuz track the microRendu runs out of resources before the entire track has been streamed, causing the abrupt end of that track and skipping to the next

 

Have you tried the microRendu with an external BubbleUPnP Server (eg on a computer, NAS, etc) to create its OpenHome Renderer and provide Qobuz access, as opposed to its internal BubbleUPnP Server?

@Cebollaand @vortecjr and anyone else who is savvy at this stuff (I’ve no idea what the first paragraph above means, although it sounds like a plausible hypothesis;):  I killed the bubbleupnp on the microRendu and created a bubbleupnup on my MacBook Pro which is on my network via WiFi.  Tracks load much faster that way, and at first I thought that did the trick.  But soon I began experiencing the exact same skips, perhaps a bit less frequently.  Have given it a week or more.  So I’ve switched back because the great advantage of running bubbleupnp on the microRendu is that I don’t have to take out my lap top and wake it up to listen.

 

I would like further troubleshooting help, if anyone has suggestions.  As I said above, I think my network is really solid.  The skipping occurs 2-3 times an evening and is very annoying.

 

Sure wish the microRendu could be controlled by the Qobuz app through its Connect feature instead of Shairport.  The app does not skip to next track and is splendidly designed, far better than lumin.

 

 

 

[rickca]

@sockpit did you try A+ on your Macbook Pro?  There's a free trial if you don't have a license.  I know you don't want your laptop involved, but this is just for troubleshooting.  If it works without skipping, I'd suspect Lumin and Kazoo.  I personally found them both pretty buggy, especially Kazoo.  If you have an Android device, you could try BubbleUPnP as the control point (it's not the same program as BubbleUPnP Server, despite the confusing similarily in name).  

 

I don't think either Qobuz or your network are the source of the problem.  What device are you using as your control point?

[sockpit]

14 hours ago, rickca said:

@sockpit did you try A+ on your Macbook Pro?  There's a free trial if you don't have a license.  I know you don't want your laptop involved, but this is just for troubleshooting.  If it works without skipping, I'd suspect Lumin and Kazoo.  I personally found them both pretty buggy, especially Kazoo.  If you have an Android device, you could try BubbleUPnP as the control point (it's not the same program as BubbleUPnP Server, despite the confusing similarily in name).  

 

I don't think either Qobuz or your network are the source of the problem.  What device are you using as your control point?

Thanks much, @rickca.  I began my CA quest with Audirvana + and still have version 2.6.6 on my computer with my local music on it.  I've logged into Qobuz through it, and that works too.  So far, so good.

 

I'm happy to troubleshoot as you suggest.  Question: how do I send Audirvana stream to the microRendu.  If I recall with 2.6.6 there was no easy way to do that.  Has the microRendu in the meantime become a detectible option in A+ software, such that I should get the newest trial?  If so, I'll do that to further isolate the issue.

 

One more thing: if it is a bug in Lumin and Kazoo that would be a strange coincidence.  Plus, I've not found others complaining about this online, which I think they would by now.  Perhaps I'm not a good googler.

 

Thanks again.  

 

cc'ing @vortecjr so he can follow my problem, too, in case he has further advise.  I emailed with him a couple weeks ago and he agreed I should try things for a while with Bubbleupnp on my computer instead of on the mR.  Want him to know that didn't fix it either.

[rickca]

2 hours ago, sockpit said:

Has the microRendu in the meantime become a detectible option in A+ software, such that I should get the newest trial?

Yes you need the current A+ V3.  Output to a DLNA renderer like the mR is new in that version of A+.  It works a lot better than any of the other control points.

[sockpit]

56 minutes ago, rickca said:

Yes you need the current A+ V3.  Output to a DLNA renderer like the mR is new in that version of A+.  It works a lot better than any of the other control points.

Thanks much.  I’m in business!  Will use this week and see if the skipping stops.  Will also listen for sound quality differences.  Should there be any, if both are jus controllers for DNLA connection?  I don’t understand the inner workings of these miracles.

 

I will say I’m impressed again by Damien’s product.  It just works.  Even got the remote working again in seconds.

[rickca]

19 minutes ago, sockpit said:

Will also listen for sound quality differences.  Should there be any, if both are jus controllers for DNLA connection?

I don't want to prejudice your listening, so I will leave it to you to decide.  I'm glad you decided to try it.

 

There are some differences in processing.  With a typical DLNA implementation, the Qobuz FLAC files go directly to the renderer.  A+ V3 acts as an http get server, so it actually gets the FLAC file, does the decode and then sends the output to the renderer.  

 

Please let me know if you still get skipping.  If so, I think it's down to either your DAC or the mR.  Do you have another DAC for testing?

 

At least with A+ you may get some assistance from Damien if you still get skipping.  I'm not sure how much technical support is available from Lumin or Linn if you're not using their endpoints.  There is good tech support available for BubbleUPnP on Android from the developer.

 

 

[sockpit]

1 minute ago, rickca said:

I don't want to prejudice your listening, so I will leave it to you to decide.  I'm glad you decided to try it.

 

There are some differences in processing.  With a typical DLNA implementation, the Qobuz FLAC files go directly to the renderer.  A+ V3 acts as an http get server, so it actually gets the FLAC file, does the decode and then sends the output to the renderer.  

 

Please let me know if you still get skipping.  If so, I think it's down to either your DAC or the mR.  Do you have another DAC for testing?

 

 

Good not to prejudice me.  Will give it a fair hearing.  A $39 upgrade wouldn't kill me if I like it.  But the idea of having my computer going isn't so attractive.  I want to get away from computers when I listen, actually.  An iPad is fine, but the computer spells work for me.

 

Processing differences are interesting.  Does that mean that the uR doesn't have to work or render as hard when using A+?  That might transfer into SQ differences.

 

Will definitely report back on the skipping.  It just made it through a 16 minute movement it often skips on.  Appreciate your help very much.

 

I'd be quite surprise if my DAC (Exogal Comet) was the culprit , only because it never skips when I'm using my own music files stored on my laptop and send to the mR by Lumin or Kazoo.  I do not have another DAC for testing, unfortunately.

 

Nor has it ever skipped when using Qobuz's app on my iPad.  I'm on record already for saying I really like Qobuz's app and wish it worked via DNLA or Connect or something other than Shairplay.  The app not only is very well designed, but it offers quite a bit of content, articles, etc. veering in the direction of Roon.

[rickca]

6 minutes ago, sockpit said:

I'd be quite surprise if my DAC (Exogal Comet) was the culprit

I agree.  

6 minutes ago, sockpit said:

Does that mean that the uR doesn't have to work or render as hard when using A+?

Exactly right.  Whether it really makes a difference in sound quality is another question.

6 minutes ago, sockpit said:

I really like Qobuz's app

Me too.  I really don't need Roon, and Roon doesn't have Qobuz integration anyway.  I've asked Jesus if he could support Cast on the mR because the Qobuz app supports Cast.  Unfortunately, he said he didn't know how well it would work and that he wasn't interested in pursuing it.

 

One last idea.  Have you ever tried running the mR in LMS/Squeezelite mode instead of DLNA/MPD and using iPeng9 as the controller?  I had never tried this before getting my Innuos Zenith SE which uses LMS.  This would eliminate DLNA protocol from your test scenario and might help further confirm the source of your problem.

[sockpit]

3 minutes ago, rickca said:

I agree.  

Exactly right.  Whether it really makes a difference in sound quality is another question.

Me too.  I really don't need Roon, and Roon doesn't have Qobuz integration anyway.  I've asked Jesus if he could support Cast on the mR because the Qobuz app supports Cast.  Unfortunately, he said he didn't know how well it would work and that he wasn't interested in pursuing it.

I bugged Jesus about the same thing.  I think you helped me realize his reluctance had to do with Cast.

 

Am experiencing this problem with A+: every time I hit a new track, the song starts with a brief, staticy, stutter.  Just for a second.  I have a pretty powerful Macbook pro, although its a few years old.  Any suggestions?

[rickca]

1 minute ago, sockpit said:

Am experiencing this problem with A+: every time I hit a new track, the song starts with a brief, staticy, stutter.  Just for a second.  I have a pretty powerful Macbook pro, although its a few years old.  Any suggestions?

Sorry I didn't encounter that problem when I tested A+ V3 with my mR.  I have no clue.  You can chase this new problem with Damien if A+ V3 solves the track skipping issue and you want to stick with it.  

[sockpit]

Just now, rickca said:

Sorry I didn't encounter that problem when I tested A+ V3 with my mR.  I have no clue.  You can chase this new problem with Damien if A+ V3 solves the track skipping issue and you want to stick with it.  

I’ll give it some time, reboot, etc.  

 

I’m having a hard time going for the bike ride I had planned.  That’s a good sign SQ wise   I’d say add this point the sound is a bit richer and warmer, but crystal clear.  All good things for my taste.  Patience.

[rickca]

Just now, sockpit said:

Patience.

At least you can count on A+ and Sonore to work together to resolve problems.  I was impressed with the reliability of A+ compared to other control points.