Innuos Zenith SE MkII

[str-1]

Some Tidal and DSD issues now addressed in firmware update 1.3.3.  Don’t know precisely what they are.  Just learned about it talking with Innuos.

[BigAlMc]

26 minutes ago, str-1 said:

Some Tidal and DSD issues now addressed in firmware update 1.3.3.  Don’t know precisely what they are.  Just learned about it talking with Innuos.

 

Thanks @str-1 - Any ideas about the timeline for releasing it?

 

Cheers,

Alan

[str-1]

It’s out already.  I’ve just installed.

[BigAlMc]

Thanks - I'll update tonight.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, str-1 said:

Some Tidal and DSD issues now addressed in firmware update 1.3.3.  Don’t know precisely what they are.  Just learned about it talking with Innuos.

 

The DSD issue - or at least a DSD issue - is the one I experienced and reported with the 1.3.2 update. The confusingly-named "Native DSD" setting, which actually turns on DoP, stopped working. As a result, all DSD content was being transcoded to 352.8 kHz. This is with the internal player. Roon was not affected.

 

I just installed 1.3.3, and indeed, the DoP problem appears to be fixed.

 

It would be nice to get a full changelog for each release.

[austinpop]

Release notes for the 1.3.3. release are here:

 

http://www.innuos.com/en/go/release-1-3-3

 

Note the pane on the left which has links to all the release notes.

[monteverdi]

I find ripping classical music completely unacceptable with my Zenith. Only about 15% of my classical CDs get all metadata correct and about another 40% I need to correct the metadata, often searching for covers and other data on the internet. The remaining CDs are too painful to rip with the Zenith but with all of them I have no problem ripping using my Macbook Pro and dBpoweramp including the correct album art. So if dBpoweramp has access to the correct metadata and album art why is Innuos so incapable?

[Patatorz]

Did you send this information to innuos support in order to explain that other software are doing better ? Dbpoweramp is using freedb, Amazon etc...so should be also possible for innuos.

 

best regards

[KingRex]

If you have a lit of CD, think of getting a Nimbi. Works with DB poweramp.  Load 50 CD, walk away and let it work.  Hastle to set up, but once its going it's a time saver.  I put over 2000 CD through mine. 

[KingRex]

On 1/4/2018 at 12:31 PM, BigAlMc said:

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/dars-favourite-bits-of-2017/

 

Darko on why he nearly gave the SE product of the year 2017:

 

This is what it’s like to have reviewed – and then returned to the manufacturer – the ZENith MKII SE music server (€5699, 2TB) from Portugal’s Innuos. I find myself haunted by my memory of its sound. It was like no other digital source I’d heard to date: richer and smoother than more affordable rivals like the Sonore ultraRendu (US$875) which, in a post-ZENith MKII SE world, is contrasted as sharper on the tip of the tongue (translation: more treble glare) – a quality I’d not heard before spending time with the Innuos. Doubly interesting was how the USB-lassoed flagship server bested the sound of Ethernet direct inputs on both the KEF LS50 Wireless and the Devialet Expert 120. If ever there was a lesson in getting what you pay for with digital sources this was it.

I keep hearing comments such as this. People comparing a $7,000 server to a $700 endpoint. Possibly optimization done ahead of the endpoint but still a $700 micro or Ultra rendu. Has no one done a comparison to the Sonora Signature Rendu SE.  Wouldn't that be a more fair comparison. Its there best PS and parts.  Might significantly close the gap.  Maybe surpass the Zenith SE.  Who knows.  Also less than half the price.  $3000 USA. 

[Patatorz]

Why should it be a more fair comparison ? Because of the price ?

you would compare a pure endpoint to a server/endpoint ? 

In this case how do you feed the sonore signature SE to compare with the Zenith SE.

 

BR

[BigAlMc]

19 minutes ago, KingRex said:

I keep hearing comments such as this. People comparing a $7,000 server to a $700 endpoint. Possibly optimization done ahead of the endpoint but still a $700 micro or Ultra rendu. Has no one done a comparison to the Sonora Signature Rendu SE.  Wouldn't that be a more fair comparison. Its there best PS and parts.  Might significantly close the gap.  Maybe surpass the Zenith SE.  Who knows.  Also less than half the price.  $3000 USA. 

 

I agree it would be a fairer comparison and I'd love to read one. 

 

But to a certain extent I also think it's missing the point. The whole endpoint thing can mitigate against noise but it doesn't completely eradicate that noise.

 

The point of the SE is to remove the need to eradicate that noise by having a really good source that doesn't introduce the noise in the first place.  

 

Yes it's expensive. No doubt. But the Innuos Zenith MKII is also very, very good and a far less eye watering £2300.

 

But to complete the Sonore Signature Rendu is only $3000 line of thinking. Well you still need a source. And unless that source is great then whether the SSR outperforms the SE is anyones guess. 

 

But yeah, I'd like to see the comparison. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[limniscate]

The comparison has already been done for the most part.  @austinpop compared the the SOtM stack to the Zenith and so have I.  I've been waiting to post findings until I get my SR7.

 

The SOtM stack has already been compared to the Signature Rendu.  I think audiostream.com compared them.  Therefore, the Zenith has been transitively compared to the Signature Rendu. 

[BigAlMc]

6 minutes ago, limniscate said:

The comparison has already been done for the most part.  @austinpop compared the the SOtM stack to the Zenith and so have I.  I've been waiting to post findings until I get my SR7.

 

The SOtM stack has already been compared to the Signature Rendu.  I think audiostream.com compared them.  Therefore, the Zenith has been transitively compared to the Signature Rendu. 

 

Fair point but as the supposedly uber-endpoint it'd be interesting to see a Sonore Signature Rendu with ordinary source vs the SE, as well as SSR with great source vs SE. 

 

There are probably many winning combos to consider. 

 

Personality I think (or perhaps that's hope) that my SE means I don't need an endpoint. But then Romaz seemed to enjoy pairing the SE with the DCS network bridge based on his Head-fi review. 

 

I'm currently trialling a TX-USBultra because of all the reviews but am doing so to my great annoyance  given the cash splurged on the SE. Eric you share the blame for this as you were one of the wise men advocating how the TX-USBultra lifted the SE further. Early burn. In stages so too soon to tell. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[KingRex]

I want to hear the txusb result.  Are you adding a master clock.  

 

I have a Mojo server that is not much different than the Innuos items.  I am getting amazing sound, confirmed by 2 industry professionals via USB to my DAC.  Still curious any additional heights it could go.  

 

My point per Sonore Signature is they say its their best.  Im just curious to know.  Not going to sell my unit, its to good. 

[BigAlMc]

I'm currently trialling the TX-USBultra because I've read a few people including Romaz and users on Head-fi.org saying it lifts the USB output of the SE to new levels. 

 

So far if anything it's a regression in SQ. But I guess it's a journey. It sounds really rough. Wavering etc. I hope it'll settle down. 

 

I'm powering it with a broken in UpTone Audio LPS-1 so I'm fairly sure it's the tX-USBultra that needs time. 

 

I guess we'll see. 

[rickca]

1 minute ago, BigAlMc said:

I'm currently trialling the TX-USBultra because I've read a few people including Romaz and users on Head-fi.org saying it lifts the USB output of the SE to new levels. 

I'm glad you're trying it because I also have an SE and was considering doing the same thing.  I have tried the SE with an ISO REGEN powered by an LPS-1 and my initial impression is that it sounds considerably better with the ISO REGEN.

[KingRex]

Romaz has a $2000 clock on it.  Probably a $1000 PS.   If your just the txUSB with a $400 PS,  then I guess your getting the results I expected.  I would not want to spend $4,000 to get that extra ahhhhhh.  Have you tried standoffs under your DAC and server.  My sound stage benefits with them. Made my own for about $2 each .  Bass may not be quite as full.  

[KingRex]

On 1/4/2018 at 12:31 PM, BigAlMc said:

 

[KingRex]

I meant to ask another question. How do you control the zenith. Do you use another ethernet connected computer. Does that computer affect the sound quality from the zenith. Do you get better results with a Zenith if you were controlling it with a computer that itself has linear power supplies in it.

[rickca]

1 minute ago, KingRex said:

How do you control the zenith.

It's really just LMS or Roon.  So using the internal player on the SE I am using iPeng9 on a 10.5" iPad Pro to control the play queue, whether the tracks are on the SE SSD or streaming from Qobuz.  There is a web interface (my.innuos.com) to manage a few configuration options.  I don't use Roon so I'll leave that to one of the other SE owners to answer.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Fair point but as the supposedly uber-endpoint it'd be interesting to see a Sonore Signature Rendu with ordinary source vs the SE, as well as SSR with great source vs SE. 

 

There are probably many winning combos to consider. 

 

Personality I think (or perhaps that's hope) that my SE means I don't need an endpoint. But then Romaz seemed to enjoy pairing the SE with the DCS network bridge based on his Head-fi review. 

 

I'm currently trialling a TX-USBultra because of all the reviews but am doing so to my great annoyance  given the cash splurged on the SE. Eric you share the blame for this as you were one of the wise men advocating how the TX-USBultra lifted the SE further. Early burn. In stages so too soon to tell. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

Hi Alan,

 

I know you reject my POV on this, but I will say say this again. There are no axioms, or self-evident truths, in computer audio. If there's one thing I've learned, it is that!

 

We have gone through so many cycles of "direct attach is best," "no, endpoints are best," "no, upsampling to DSD512 is best" that I would assert that you have to keep an absolutely open mind, adapt, and adopt the results of new advancements in the state of the art as they occur.

 

There is also a tendency to consider that devices that are computers - i.e. running an OS, with controllers for Ethernet, USB, etc - are particularly evil in terms of noise, so any more than one in your chain is a recipe for disaster.

 

In my experience, that is simply not true. There are some chains - my current one happens to be one - where a single computer (the Zenith SE) can sound magnificent. However, I would not presume to say that other chains that feature an endpoint - hence 2 computers, server and endpoint - are inherently, or always going to be worse. I still think my previous SOtM trifecta, fed by PSUs of the same quality as the Sean Jacobs supplies in the SE, or a PH SR-7 may equal, perhaps even surpass the SE.

 

We will be able to test this in 2-3 months when @limniscate's SR-7 shows up. If the trifecta pulls ahead, c'est la vie.

 

Finally, I have asserted this before, and will do so again - just because the Zenith SE is marketed as a music server/player does not mean that it cannot also run software that implements endpoint functionality. The main benefit of the device comes from the physical hardware design of the box. The beauty of software is that you don't need to limit yourself.

 

I strongly urge anyone who is pursuing excellence in this area of computer audio to abandon these zero-sum game thought patterns that require there to be "winners' and "losers" between direct-attach servers vs. distributed topologies with endpoints. The reality is far more complex and fluid, and you would be well served to remain agnostic.

[ElviaCaprice]

Best, find something your quite pleased with and just check out for awhile from any further upgrades or experiments.  Each have their own budget they are willing to work with.  No problem, just find that which pleases you most within that budget.  Those new products outside your budget will eventually trickle down to products within range.  Meanwhile, it's all about the music, enjoy.  I am all about simplicity of design and will avoid anything that doesn't conform to my rules of what that consists of.  In the end, simplicity will always trump complexity in both cost and sound.

[KingRex]

37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi Alan,

 

I know you reject my POV on this, but I will say say this again. There are no axioms, or self-evident truths, in computer audio. If there's one thing I've learned, it is that!

 

We have gone through so many cycles of "direct attach is best," "no, endpoints are best," "no, upsampling to DSD512 is best" that I would assert that you have to keep an absolutely open mind, adapt, and adopt the results of new advancements in the state of the art as they occur.

 

There is also a tendency to consider that devices that are computers - i.e. running an OS, with controllers for Ethernet, USB, etc - are particularly evil in terms of noise, so any more than one in your chain is a recipe for disaster.

 

In my experience, that is simply not true. There are some chains - my current one happens to be one - where a single computer (the Zenith SE) can sound magnificent. However, I would not presume to say that other chains that feature an endpoint - hence 2 computers, server and endpoint - are inherently, or always going to be worse. I still think my previous SOtM trifecta, fed by PSUs of the same quality as the Sean Jacobs supplies in the SE, or a PH SR-7 may equal, perhaps even surpass the SE.

 

We will be able to test this in 2-3 months when @limniscate's SR-7 shows up. If the trifecta pulls ahead, c'est la vie.

 

Finally, I have asserted this before, and will do so again - just because the Zenith SE is marketed as a music server/player does not mean that it cannot also run software that implements endpoint functionality. The main benefit of the device comes from the physical hardware design of the box. The beauty of software is that you don't need to limit yourself.

 

I strongly urge anyone who is pursuing excellence in this area of computer audio to abandon these zero-sum game thought patterns that require there to be "winners' and "losers" between direct-attach servers vs. distributed topologies with endpoints. The reality is far more complex and fluid, and you would be well served to remain agnostic.

Well put.  I totally agree. I get frustrated when dealers get on these threads and bash topology other than their's, then claim superiority to all.  Such rubbish.  We are all learning and getting better results all the time. 

[austinpop]

29 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Best, find something your quite pleased with and just check out for awhile from any further upgrades or experiments.

 

Sound advice!

 

Too bad most of us regulars here are singularly bad at following it.