Innuos Zenith SE MkII

[str-1]

For those who didn’t know, some info on a recent iPeng update that now links its volume setting to that of the iPad - 

 

[MaggotBrain]

On 4/13/2018 at 2:51 AM, BigAlMc said:

 

It can be used in both regions. Think it's just the power cord plug that's different.

 

I think it depends where the unit is purchased from.  I just bought an SE secondhand from France and use it here in Hawaii. I mentioned that to the Innuous sales rep, and he mentioned that I should have a transformer because that unit is probably meant to run at 220v. I had the same issue when I bought a pair of Kii Three speakers from a hifi shop in England. Here’s hoping that stops a hole from being blown through your wall!

 

I just got the SE last night, and I am flabbergasted by the sound quality. The Kii Threes make anything sound good, but feeding them from a laptop or Apple TV gave me the suspicion I driving a Ferrari with balding tires. Now that the source has been upgraded, l’m hearing details that must’ve been obscured before. Bass has more punch, drums have more snap, and the clarity of the strings and vocals is damn near haunting.

 

The Kiis and the SE are a great minimalist pairing.  I went through lots of tweaking and upgrades with my headphone rig and vowed not to make the same mistakes with a speaker setup. So I started out with the Kiis, added the SEs and (famous last words) am now calling it a day. 

[yellowblue]

I can recommend the Taiko Setchi D2 grounding box as a valuable upgrade to the SE (connected via USB). You never can be sure if  grounding boxes have much effect (the D2 gave only a slight improvement to my tx USB-Ultra) with all your devices, and sometimes it may depend what kind of input you use to ground your devices. But I can confirm that the D2 gave more clarity and depth just with the Zenith SE, with the treble sounding airier.

For some reason the manufacturer stated though that the effect will be much less in the UK because there is something special about  UK's 50hz mains ring system. But it works fine for me in Sweden.

 

As so often before I just followed Roys (Romaz) advice from another forum. I was critical against grounding boxes before and I still am when I see the exorbitant amount of money other manufactors demand. But the Taiko Setchi D2 works fine with the SE for far less money.

[dctom]

On 2/17/2018 at 1:52 AM, austinpop said:

 

1. • On 2/17/2018 at 1:52 AM, austinpop said:

      

      

     Not if you isolate properly with bridging, shunting  and reclocking in the switches like I do.

      

      

     Nope, my upstream box is as vanilla as it gets - a Dell desktop with no tuning, other than AO and Process Lasso.

      

      

     Not really. Quoting myself above, "the Zenith is a bespoke, ultra high-quality computer that can deliver exceptional signal integrity on the USB port to the DAC." From a HW perspective, that's it. Whether you run server or renderer software on it, or both, is a matter of choice.

      

      

      

 

 

Not really. Quoting myself above, "the Zenith is a bespoke, ultra high-quality computer that can deliver exceptional signal integrity on the USB port to the DAC." From a HW perspective, that's it. Whether you run server or renderer software on it, or both, is a matter of choice.

 

 

 

 

 

Hello austinpop

 

thanks for all the info you have posted - I am trying to get my head around the pros and cons of using a MKii with my current  fanless diy server.

 

any chance you could elaborate on 

 

" bridging, shunting  and reclocking in the switches like I do."

 

 

[SonicYouth]

ZENITH regarding UPnP: does the system also provide a UPnP renderer (not only a server)? Background of this question is that I want to use the system not only as a Roon device, but also as a JRiver device. If not, the Innuos for me were a NOGO, as is e.g. the Aries G2 and the bluesound based solutions. Then I go into the direction of Naim or Cocktail Audio or ? ... My overall aim is a one box solution plus two active speakers (Dynaudio Focus, Kii Three or?) plus one audiophile cable. ?

[MaggotBrain]

1 hour ago, SonicYouth said:

ZENITH regarding UPnP: does the system also provide a UPnP renderer (not only a server)? Background of this question is that I want to use the system not only as a Roon device, but also as a JRiver device. If not, the Innuos for me were a NOGO, as is e.g. the Aries G2 and the bluesound based solutions. Then I go into the direction of Naim or Cocktail Audio or ? ... My overall aim is a one box solution plus two active speakers (Dynaudio Focus, Kii Three or?) plus one audiophile cable. ?

 

I can speak as someone who has the Zenith SE plus Kii Three speakers and a Shunyata Venom USB interconnect - it is hard to express how amazing the system is. The quality of the DAC inside the Kii Threes is incredible - it easily rivals the Chord DAVE I have for my headphone setup (for a smidge over the price of the DAVE - AND you're getting killer speakers to boot). So if you are leaning into the direction of a powered speakers- I wouldn't bother looking at a all-in-one box with an integrated DAC; it'd be like adding powdered sugar to a cake already smothered with buttercream frosting. In terms of qualitative difference that the SE makes as a renderer, I can only think of what I used. Originally I used an Apple TV to stream TIDAL - which provides wonderful sound, but a basically just at CD quality 44.1 kHz, 16 bit level. Going to laptop streaming tightened up the bass a great deal and tightened up the treble. Pretty darn good but weird to use a laptop attached to my home theater in this case. It harkened back to the days of being the de facto remote control (and bunny-ear-antennae whisperer) as a kid before there were remote controls - having to GET UP out  of the recliner sucks, man. Sure I could spend $20 bucks for an extra long USB cable (ore even twenty or thirty times more for a decent streamer like a ARIES mini or a Bluesound Node2) - but then I'd be wondering how much better things could be. So I splurged and got the SE - and the step up in quality was equivalent to  the step up from the Apple TV to the laptop. It strips away the noise so the details are so much more refined - basically to the point that I can't imagine things being better (but thanks to YellowBlue- I will look into the Taiki Setchi unit for more USB tweaking). 

 

As far as the UI goes, Roon is tough to beat - it's like adding creature comforts like heated seats, cup holders and leather trim to a tricked-out sports car. The customer support (either by phone or email) at Innuous is excellent and I imagine they'd be able to answer your question. I would be remiss in not mentioning the support I've gotten from Kii as well - just last week they remotely installed a firmware update to my USB within minutes of a late night call to Germany; they are wunderbar!

 

[jenjoh]

I have a sms-200 roon endpoint, that I have borowed at home now. I thought I would set it up AS a roon endpoint towards my zenit mkii roon server, to check if the clock in the sotm would make Sound much better than playing directly via usb from the zenit.

 

but... not able to see the endpoint..Tried both via the LAN port, and the streamer port.. But,  I dont see the endpoint on the server.

 

I am on the same subnet, tried to set up my Mac mini that is on same Network AS server and it sees it just fine..

 

anybody done this, and can explain their setup?

 

 

jens

[str-1]

I wasn’t really expecting there to be, but I asked the question and Innuos confirmed there will be no upgrade options for the Zenith SE following on from launch of the Zenith Statement.

[jaspal kallar]

2 hours ago, str-1 said:

I wasn’t really expecting there to be, but I asked the question and Innuos confirmed there will be no upgrade options for the Zenith SE following on from launch of the Zenith Statement.

 

You can update the USB Card to the one in the Statement. It's mentioned in this video. But I thinks that's all.

 

  

[str-1]

11 hours ago, jaspal kallar said:

 

You can update the USB Card to the one in the Statement. It's mentioned in this video. But I thinks that's all.

 

  

That is good news.  Thanks for that.  I shall get back to Innuos and ask for clarification on this.

[TheAttorney]

I'm not sure the news is that great. Looks like that USB card upgrade will be pricey and more boxes: According to the video it will have its own enclosure with a 2-rail power supply.

 

Much more elegant I think would be for Innuos to bring in a single-box SE replacement that has the OCXO USB card built in, and market it approximately mid way between the €3k Zenith Mk3 and the €11k Statement. This is such an obvious next step to fill a gaping hole in the model line up that I'm sure Innuos will be working on it.

[Blackmorec]

4 minutes ago, TheAttorney said:

I'm not sure the news is that great. Looks like that USB card upgrade will be pricey and more boxes: According to the video it will have its own enclosure with a 2-rail power supply.

 

Much more elegant I think would be for Innuos to bring in a single-box SE replacement that has the OCXO USB card built in, and market it approximately mid way between the €3k Zenith Mk3 and the €11k Statement. This is such an obvious next step to fill a gaping hole in the model line up that I'm sure Innuos will be working on it.

The separate box does have 2 major advantages

1. It can be added to any/all compatible Innuos products and 

2. It means that customers with the current SE have a simple upgrade path

No doubt Innuos are working on something to bridge the Zenith MkIII to Statement gap....probably something very similar to your proposal. 

[simorag]

Hello everybody! I just got a second hand ZENith MkII SE, which I am going to use with a Chord DAVE (ISO Regen + LPS-1 + Phasure Lush USB cable) to drive my Abyss Phi headphones.

 

I am finalizing the upload and clean-up of my music library, and all is going on quite smoothly so far. I'll be playing local files exclusively for now, so no streaming involved.

 

I will be using an android smartphone or a Surface Pro 3 as a remote, so I have purchased both OrangeSqueeze and Squeeze Remote, but I find both not really providing a great user experience in terms of GUI.

 

Therefore I am considering to try Roon (a good way to splurge another 500USD :-)).

 

Before pulling the trigger on Roon, I wanted to check with you more experienced users a couple of things:

 

1. anybody checked if Roon 1.5 is closing the gap in terms of sound quality compared to the squeezebox player?

2. is the SE as Roon Core able to take advantage of Roon DSP such as parametric equalization?

 

Thank you in advance,

Simone

 

[BigAlMc]

15 minutes ago, simorag said:

Hello everybody! I just got a second hand ZENith MkII SE, which I am going to use with a Chord DAVE (ISO Regen + LPS-1 + Phasure Lush USB cable) to drive my Abyss Phi headphones.

 

I am finalizing the upload and clean-up of my music library, and all is going on quite smoothly so far. I'll be playing local files exclusively for now, so no streaming involved.

 

I will be using an android smartphone or a Surface Pro 3 as a remote, so I have purchased both OrangeSqueeze and Squeeze Remote, but I find both not really providing a great user experience in terms of GUI.

 

Therefore I am considering to try Roon (a good way to splurge another 500USD :-)).

 

Before pulling the trigger on Roon, I wanted to check with you more experienced users a couple of things:

 

1. anybody checked if Roon 1.5 is closing the gap in terms of sound quality compared to the squeezebox player?

2. is the SE as Roon Core able to take advantage of Roon DSP such as parametric equalization?

 

Thank you in advance,

Simone

 

 

Hi Simone, 

 

Congrats on your SE! 

 

My two cents FWIW is that SQ doesn't seem too high on Roons priorities. So I'm answer to 1. no, the LMS player still sounds better. That said I still use Roon for most of my listening. Tho it's kinda like having a jaguar parked whilst you drive your Toyota because you prefer the SatNav in the Toyota! 

 

That's the tradeoff tho. Better GUI / UX vs better SQ. 

 

Given the LMS player plays from memory and Roon cannot, then for the SE at least this gap isn't likely to close that much. 

 

For 2. Roon on the SE can handle upsampling to DSD128 with ease and probably the DSP you refer to. But I doubt it could do more demanding like DSD512. 

 

I'd ask Roon for a 30 day trial before splashing the 500 tho. Make your mind up from there after comparing the two directly. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[Blackmorec]

I use iPeng with my SE.  Really easy to use, I particularly like the random play ‘songs’ which can be very easily edited and stored as playlists. I also like the streaming capabilities with Qobuz, where I can play, edit and store Qobuz playlists into my own favourites.   The quarantine function during ripping is also great, catching duplicates, any faulty tracks or missing meta data. SQ is better than Roon.  Works flawlessly with my iPad

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, simorag said:

Hello everybody! I just got a second hand ZENith MkII SE, which I am going to use with a Chord DAVE (ISO Regen + LPS-1 + Phasure Lush USB cable) to drive my Abyss Phi headphones.

 

I am finalizing the upload and clean-up of my music library, and all is going on quite smoothly so far. I'll be playing local files exclusively for now, so no streaming involved.

 

I will be using an android smartphone or a Surface Pro 3 as a remote, so I have purchased both OrangeSqueeze and Squeeze Remote, but I find both not really providing a great user experience in terms of GUI.

 

Therefore I am considering to try Roon (a good way to splurge another 500USD :-)).

 

Before pulling the trigger on Roon, I wanted to check with you more experienced users a couple of things:

 

1. anybody checked if Roon 1.5 is closing the gap in terms of sound quality compared to the squeezebox player?

2. is the SE as Roon Core able to take advantage of Roon DSP such as parametric equalization?

 

Thank you in advance,

Simone

 

 

3 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi Simone, 

 

Congrats on your SE! 

 

My two cents FWIW is that SQ doesn't seem too high on Roons priorities. So I'm answer to 1. no, the LMS player still sounds better. That said I still use Roon for most of my listening. Tho it's kinda like having a jaguar parked whilst you drive your Toyota because you prefer the SatNav in the Toyota! 

 

That's the tradeoff tho. Better GUI / UX vs better SQ. 

 

Given the LMS player plays from memory and Roon cannot, then for the SE at least this gap isn't likely to close that much. 

 

For 2. Roon on the SE can handle upsampling to DSD128 with ease and probably the DSP you refer to. But I doubt it could do more demanding like DSD512. 

 

I'd ask Roon for a 30 day trial before splashing the 500 tho. Make your mind up from there after comparing the two directly. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

I’ll echo Alan’s comments. While the internal Squeezelite player still sounds better, I usually listen via Roon.

 

Oh I always think to myself, while browsing in Roon... I should remember to switch over to internal before actually listening, but then I always forget.

 

i really wish we didn’t have this dilemma, and that Innuos could close the gap.

[simorag]

43 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

I use iPeng with my SE.  ...  Works flawlessly with my iPad

 

I wish I had an iPad available. It seems that iPeng has a much better user interface compared to Windows control apps. Orange Squeeze is not that bad, but browsing 1000+ albums on a smartphone screen is not the best.

 

4 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

I'd ask Roon for a 30 day trial before splashing the 500 tho. Make your mind up from there after comparing the two directly.  

Yes, I believe that's what I will do. By default, they provide only 14 days trial … occasionally they go to 2 months. I'll try to get a 2 months evaluation code and check the sound quality loss vs. user-experience trade off.

 

Thank you, guys.

 

P.S.: I'll report back my impressions on the SE vs. my previous system in the next weeks!

[str-1]

6 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

I'm not sure the news is that great. Looks like that USB card upgrade will be pricey and more boxes: According to the video it will have its own enclosure with a 2-rail power supply.

 

Much more elegant I think would be for Innuos to bring in a single-box SE replacement that has the OCXO USB card built in, and market it approximately mid way between the €3k Zenith Mk3 and the €11k Statement. This is such an obvious next step to fill a gaping hole in the model line up that I'm sure Innuos will be working on it.

Just thinking about this upgrade option a bit more, what would it be likely to do that  the SR-4 powered tX-USBultra I am currently using with my Zenith SE isn’t already doing?

[BigAlMc]

1 minute ago, str-1 said:

Just thinking about this upgrade option a bit more, what would it be likely to do that  the SR-4 powered tX-USBultra I am currently using with my Zenith SE isn’t already doing?

 

My take is kinda: Statement whatevs! 

 

Admittedly, I'm mildly irked that my SE is no longer the flagship. 

 

But c'est la vie and I salute the advancement of the product line at the same time. 

 

Meanwhile back at casa BigAlMc the SE is fecking great. Truly great. The TX-USBultra raised it to a higher level. And the sCLK-OCX10 took it even further into the stratosphere. 

 

Sure, I'm curious about the Statement. But my system is finally knocking my socks off. So I'm good. No plans to upgrade in the near future. 

 

Famous last words, I know... 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, str-1 said:

Just thinking about this upgrade option a bit more, what would it be likely to do that  the SR-4 powered tX-USBultra I am currently using with my Zenith SE isn’t already doing?

 

Functionally, I think they are similar. Architecturally, there are 2 differences:

1. Clocking design
   • the tX-U uses the sCLK-EX frequency synthesizer board to generate the required frequency (24 or 48MHz) for the USB controller. Further SQ comes from using a 10MHz reference clock (Ref10 or OCX10) to "discipline" the sCLK-EX board. This topology requires BNC connectors, cables, and a clock chain (reference clock > sCLK-EX). Thus, the ultra-low-phase noise OCXO clock (the Ref10/OCX10) is distant from the target circuit - i.e. the USB controller.
   • the hypothetical SE USB add-on would have an OCXO fixed frequency (I presume) oscillator chip within mm of the USB controller circuit. What it lacks in quality (phase noise specs) relative to a Ref 10, perhaps it makes up due to the adjacency. This is the $64k question!
2. PSU design
   • the SR-4 PSU is outboard, and even with a silver cable, must traverse one XLR connector, one barrel connector, and some length of cable, all of which add impedance. The advantage here is that Paul Hynes's PSUs are world class.
   • the SE USB unit would have a builtin PSU from Sean Jacobs. Its advantage would be its direct attachment - again, a few mm - to the circuit. This should lower the impedance. But it's not a Paul Hynes.

In both cases, there are pros and cons, and tradeoffs. We won't know which sounds better until the Innuos SE USB add-on is available. Meanwhile, as someone who has the tX-U, SR-4, and Ref-10, I don't feel deprived at all!

[str-1]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Functionally, I think they are similar. Architecturally, there are 2 differences:

1. Clocking design
   • the tX-U uses the sCLK-EX frequency synthesizer board to generate the required frequency (24 or 48MHz) for the USB controller. Further SQ comes from using a 10MHz reference clock (Ref10 or OCX10) to "discipline" the sCLK-EX board. This topology requires BNC connectors, cables, and a clock chain (reference clock > sCLK-EX). Thus, the ultra-low-phase noise OCXO clock (the Ref10/OCX10) is distant from the target circuit - i.e. the USB controller.
   • the hypothetical SE USB add-on would have an OCXO fixed frequency (I presume) oscillator chip within mm of the USB controller circuit. What it lacks in quality (phase noise specs) relative to a Ref 10, perhaps it makes up due to the adjacency. This is the $64k question!
2. PSU design
   • the SR-4 PSU is outboard, and even with a silver cable, must traverse one XLR connector, one barrel connector, and some length of cable, all of which add impedance. The advantage here is that Paul Hynes's PSUs are world class.
   • the SE USB unit would have a builtin PSU from Sean Jacobs. Its advantage would be its direct attachment - again, a few mm - to the circuit. This should lower the impedance. But it's not a Paul Hynes.

In both cases, there are pros and cons, and tradeoffs. We won't know which sounds better until the Innuos SE USB add-on is available. Meanwhile, as someone who has the tX-U, SR-4, and Ref-10, I don't feel deprived at all!

Thanks for those thoughts.  Only time will tell.  I would certainly like the opportunity to compare the upgrade option with what I’ve currently got.  One thing possibly in favour of the Innuos upgrade is that my tX-USBultra is not configured for master clock input.

[flummoxe]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Functionally, I think they are similar. Architecturally, there are 2 differences:

1. Clocking design
   • the tX-U uses the sCLK-EX frequency synthesizer board to generate the required frequency (24 or 48MHz) for the USB controller. Further SQ comes from using a 10MHz reference clock (Ref10 or OCX10) to "discipline" the sCLK-EX board. This topology requires BNC connectors, cables, and a clock chain (reference clock > sCLK-EX). Thus, the ultra-low-phase noise OCXO clock (the Ref10/OCX10) is distant from the target circuit - i.e. the USB controller.
   • the hypothetical SE USB add-on would have an OCXO fixed frequency (I presume) oscillator chip within mm of the USB controller circuit. What it lacks in quality (phase noise specs) relative to a Ref 10, perhaps it makes up due to the adjacency. This is the $64k question!
2. PSU design
   • the SR-4 PSU is outboard, and even with a silver cable, must traverse one XLR connector, one barrel connector, and some length of cable, all of which add impedance. The advantage here is that Paul Hynes's PSUs are world class.
   • the SE USB unit would have a builtin PSU from Sean Jacobs. Its advantage would be its direct attachment - again, a few mm - to the circuit. This should lower the impedance. But it's not a Paul Hynes.

In both cases, there are pros and cons, and tradeoffs. We won't know which sounds better until the Innuos SE USB add-on is available. Meanwhile, as someone who has the tX-U, SR-4, and Ref-10, I don't feel deprived at all!

 

Good evening Austinpop,

 

You mentioned a USB add-on for the SE. This is new to me so do you have any further information?

 

Thanks

 

 

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, flummoxe said:

 

Good evening Austinpop,

 

You mentioned a USB add-on for the SE. This is new to me so do you have any further information?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

This is what Nuno told me in person at AXPONA. Also confirmed at around 3:45 on this video:

 

 

[NOMBEDES]

When will the Statement product be released in the US?

[rickca]

When a performer gets the interpretation of a piece of music just right, you know it.  It makes you think ... this is what the composer intended when he wrote it.  

 

You need great technical proficiency to pull this off, but that's not what draws your attention.  There's no 'look what I can do'.  The artist makes it look easy and natural.

 

I characterize the Zenith SE the same way.  You realize you're listening to music rather than your audio system.  You slip right under the spell because there are none of the usual cues that remind you this is digital.  It's so enjoyable.

 

This is what I find convincing about the Zenith SE.