What’s more important, Streamer or DAC?

[Rubytuesday]

Hi all,

 

I’ve been thinking about this a lot and wanted to see if anyone had some thoughts about a digital setup. 

 

The main question I have is: are you better off with a high end streamer that has a good built in Dac (like the Lumin D2) or connect to a lower end dac like a Gumby? Or a lower end streamer (like the bluesound node2 or UltraRendu/Roon) and a good dac like the Schiit yggy or Mytek Brooklyn?  How important is the quality of the streamer?  Trying to figure out the best under $3k option for my digital front end. 

 

Any my thoughts are appreciated!

 

 

[firedog]

Hi-

I'd say you are better off with a good DAC and and a good streamer (separates). Unless you insist on one box. IME the PS for the streamer makes a noticeable difference. 

I'm not sure how you came to classify the UltraRendu (or even the mRendu) as  a low end streamer - I think both can realistically be called high end when matched with a good PS. 

 

For the kind of money you are talking about I'd put the majority into the DAC - unless you know of a modestly priced DAC you think is as good as more expensive ones. Say the micro or ultra Rendu with a good PS and a DAC you like with the rest of the money. 

[One and a half]

Ethernet streaming is different processing than DAC and the two should be kept separate. A DAC usually has other inputs like USB, Coax, AES3 or TOSLINK, if developments in the future roll back to these inputs, you're covered.

Similarly, gapless streamers, you can count on your left hand for existence, can and do change quickly. Look for an external DC power supply that can be upgraded later, a good linear supply out of the streamer or DAC can make or break performance.

 

Built in power supplies are often under-performing. By this I mean, they may provide the right power delivery of volts and amps, but at the cost of serious emissions (high impedance leakage currents) which are difficult to remove later. Power supplies are a significant cost component of the streamer or DAC, maybe the emphasis should be more on this aspect rather than the chipset inside the DAC for instance. Although some DACS like the TEAC xx-505/504 have the latest chips, they may not necessarily sound that great, where others use established chips like the AD1955, Wolfson work very well indeed; always how the DAC chips are implemented. DACs that do away with the chips altogether use FPGA for the conversion process (in part) but are generally more expensive, mainly to recover the R&D costs.

 

The software that comes with the streamer is in the main tied or written to the streamer directly, although 3rd party software will often work too. Underlying theme is, you, have to live with what it looks like and the connection speed to the streamer. Software from Denon, Marantz and Pioneer is clunky and poorly written. Unless this lot improves their performance substantially, avoid them for now.

 

The Lumin D2 has very good intentions, it is let down by installing a SMPS. This is quite inexcusable, as the older D1 had the ability to change external power supplies, and many members reported a vast improvement, same for the Brooklyn DAC.

[bobbmd]

@Rubytuesday just curious as to why you call the Schiit Gungnir ‘a lower end DAC’? I would think 1250$ for newest multi bit with Gen 5 USB would be far from ‘lower end’(and I think Schiit promotes it as Yggy ‘junior’ and is described as such by others on CA) my premulti bit certainly isn’t and at 800$+ wasn’t ‘lower end’ to me and still sounds spectacular. The BlueSound Node 2 sounds interesting does have Burr Brown DAC’s  but you could bypass them using the Toslinkoptical out to the gumby since only draw back is there is no USB out but some say SQ is better via toslinkoptical or digital out.

I am thinking of the new Gungnir plus the BS Node 2-still less than Lumin D2- the only draw back is BS Node 2 is not compatible with A+3 and I don’t know about ROON Qobuz and TIDAL. There has been negative comments about the Mytek in terms of support plus it is not all made in USA like Schiit products.

bobbmd

[Lebouwsky]

To answer you question, I believe a system will never sound better then it’s weakest link, so both components matter. The streamer can have a huge effect on the total sound. The Gungnir multibit is a very good dac. Combined with an sonore or Sotm streamer and a quality power supply like the lps-1 or sps-500 you’ll have a very good system that can be easily upgraded when you feel the need.

 

 

[ismewor]

As always take care of your front end.

[beerandmusic]

whatever you do, get something that supports DSD if you are concerned with what is better.

 

With $3K i would get a qutest and decide later if you even need a streamer.

 

I used to be a "hard sell" on enet over usb, as i always preferred enet over usb, despite convenience....but once i got a DSD streamer/dac that had usb isolation, i am getting DSD SQ that sounds just as good as enet for the first time out the usb port.

 

The qutest has galvanic isolation, and I don't think you will need any usb toys with it when connecting to a pc, nor any need to deal with enet anymore....jmo

 

If you like the convenience of one box solution, the Auralic Altair has all the checkmarks checked...

x DSD

x Streamer

x LPS

x ultra low noise femto clocks

x under $2k (used about $1200)

x also has many other inputs (aes, tosllink,usb,coax,enet)

x roon and dlna

x balanced inputs

 

Now if someone could make a similar box that was more android or pc friendly and had es9038 dual mono design, at same pricepoint...then we would really have something.

[barrows]

This is simple: Everything Matters.

 

That said, my new DAC build has been a really big step up in performance over my previous one.  Considering that a DAC is both a digital AND analog component, it is pretty clear to me that there is more room for sonic improvement in the DAC than there is in the streamer.

 

But, to get the best sound you will need the best streamer and the best DAC.  Although I do believe there are some on this forum who are paying way too much attention to esoteric (and inaudible) details of Ethernet audio... 

[asdf1000]

8 minutes ago, barrows said:

That said, my new DAC build has been a really big step up in performance over my previous one.

 

What was your previous DAC? And what's your current? Is your signature up to date or showing your previous?

 

[barrows]

Signature is up to date.  Previous DAC was: DIY (Twisted Pear Audio) Buffalo IIIse (ESS 9018 chip), with NTD-1 v.4 I/v stage, and Sonore USB interface with integrated oversampling, custom digital filters.  Very sophisticated power supplies in this build as well.

New DAC is: Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038 chip), with Mercury I/V stage and Amanero USB interface, isolated and re-clocked via Twisted Pear Audio Hermes and Cronus modules.  Very sophisticated power supplies in this build as well...

The new DAC does not use the Sonore interface because I now oversample all PCM to DSD 128 using Audirvana+ (in my experience the ESS chips respond very well to DSD input).  I also use just one clock in my new DAC, as everything coming in is DSD, I only need the single 45.1584 clock frequency.  

[asdf1000]

24 minutes ago, barrows said:

Signature is up to date.  Previous DAC was: DIY (Twisted Pear Audio) Buffalo IIIse (ESS 9018 chip), with NTD-1 v.4 I/v stage, and Sonore USB interface with integrated oversampling, custom digital filters.  Very sophisticated power supplies in this build as well.

New DAC is: Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038 chip), with Mercury I/V stage and Amanero USB interface, isolated and re-clocked via Twisted Pear Audio Hermes and Cronus modules.  Very sophisticated power supplies in this build as well...

The new DAC does not use the Sonore interface because I now oversample all PCM to DSD 128 using Audirvana+ (in my experience the ESS chips respond very well to DSD input).  I also use just one clock in my new DAC, as everything coming in is DSD, I only need the single 45.1584 clock frequency.  

 

Cool. This one? http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalosep.aspx

 

[barrows]

That is the DAC board, there is a lot more to it than that though.  You need an I/V stage (Mercury), some kind of input stage (USB for me), and then many power supplies.  I have built six or seven DIY DACs using the Twisted Pear kit parts, and have learned much along the way about how to get the best out of them.  I use self designed custom power supplies, and change parts on the I/V stage board for better performance.  But the twisted Pear kits are an excellent starting point.  Russ White (Twisted Pear designer) has probably done more PCB board layouts for the ESS chips than anyone, he has been working with the ESS chips since their inception. 

[asdf1000]

11 hours ago, barrows said:

That is the DAC board, there is a lot more to it than that though.  You need an I/V stage (Mercury), some kind of input stage (USB for me), and then many power supplies.  I have built six or seven DIY DACs using the Twisted Pear kit parts, and have learned much along the way about how to get the best out of them.  I use self designed custom power supplies, and change parts on the I/V stage board for better performance.  But the twisted Pear kits are an excellent starting point.  Russ White (Twisted Pear designer) has probably done more PCB board layouts for the ESS chips than anyone, he has been working with the ESS chips since their inception. 

 

Very nice indeed. I was looking around their site and just realised it's all DIY parts and sections. I thought they sold fully assembled units but doesn't look like it.

[adamdea]

On 12/24/2017 at 4:59 AM, Rubytuesday said:

Hi all,

 

I’ve been thinking about this a lot and wanted to see if anyone had some thoughts about a digital setup. 

 

The main question I have is: are you better off with a high end streamer that has a good built in Dac (like the Lumin D2) or connect to a lower end dac like a Gumby? Or a lower end streamer (like the bluesound node2 or UltraRendu/Roon) and a good dac like the Schiit yggy or Mytek Brooklyn?  How important is the quality of the streamer?  Trying to figure out the best under $3k option for my digital front end. 

 

Any my thoughts are appreciated!

 

 

The streamer is really important. It must have the ability to do all the things you want it to do, a good UI etc.

A dac is the thing which will determine the sound quality going forward though. 

Don't buy a streamer which locks you into a primitive UI and limited features. 

[arcman]

I know many advocate a separate streamer and Dac, however, wouldn't the USB connection between the two be a weak link that would be best eliminated? Of course you are using quality separate components

[tranz]

On 7/8/2019 at 4:41 AM, arcman said:

I know many advocate a separate streamer and Dac, however, wouldn't the USB connection between the two be a weak link that would be best eliminated? Of course you are using quality separate components

These are not mutually exclusive. I have not used USB for audio in years. Optical ethernet.

 

To the OP. Regarding the DAC, just make sure you are able to select the filters in the DAC since your preference on a minimum phase versus linear phase filter can make or break your DAC experience. I know it did for me. And, find a setup that avoids USB.

[MarkS]

This thread may be out of date, but the MYTEK Brooklyn Bridge is a dac and streams via Ethernet (an all in one). I like it and run it in my office system. Not the last word in a dac, but a very solid performer at about $2,700. If you can stretch, it benefits from a linear psu. 

 

I don’t know the price of the Lumin T1. I think it’s a lot more. Once heard it at a show, and it sounded really good.