$300 Headphones for speaker lover

[ted_b]

Well, the HE-400is and Carbon Nighthawks arrived.  I plugged them in (to different headphone inputs simply to warm them up a bit) and let them play for a couple hours.  Then my first impressions out of my LA Microzotl:

* He-400is sound ok, but a bit mid-0fi to me.  What does that mean?  Clarity, soudstage and lower frequency extension, but midrange sounds artificial...i.e recorded material sounds like recorded material.  Colors are not quite right.  I'm used to my speakers making  my special tracks sound more real and palpable.  (I know...what the hell to expect for $219!!).

* Carbon Nighthawks have more real color but their overall presence is soaked in some sort of midbass pool of "warmth" which to me is a bit too much, and a bit too (once again) artificial.

 

Note; this is first listen and worth a grain of salt.  However, I may have to spend more for my sound, or just get my new music room built faster.    Guess I need to sell this house first! Stay tuned.

[crenca]

1 minute ago, ted_b said:

Well, the HE-400is and Carbon Nighthawks arrived.  I plugged them in (to different headphone inputs simply to warm them up a bit) and let them play for a couple hours.  Then my first impressions out of my LA Microzotl:

* He-400is sound ok, but a bit mid-0fi to me.  What does that mean?  Clarity, soudstage and lower frequency extension, but midrange sounds artificial...i.e recorded material sounds like recorded material.  Colors are not quite right.  I'm used to my speakers making  my special tracks sound more real and palpable.  (I know...what the hell to expect for $219!!).

* Carbon Nighthawks have more real color but their overall presence is soaked in some sort of midbass pool of "warmth" which to me is a bit too much, and a bit too (once again) artificial.

 

Note; this is first listen and worth a grain of salt.  However, I may have to spend more for my sound, or just get my new music room built faster.    Guess I need to sell this house first! Stay tuned.

 

Now, these are HE-400s, HE-400i's, or Massdrop HE-4XX's?  The consensus appears to be that they are all tuned (and built, something about the driver) different.  

 

I will say that my HE-4XX's are not the equivalent of $1k + planars or dynamics from all the usual suspects.  Now that I have had them a bit longer, there is a bit of a reluctance to them, a (yep, I am going to use the term) "veil" that seems to be part of the sub $500 HP listening experience.  That said at least with the HE4XX's the low FR extention is there (and I listen to some electronica with real content in the 20-40hz range)...

[ted_b]

They are, as I typed them above, HE-400is (and loaners from the Cable Company).

 

I hear the responders, and I realize that if I were to get real serious about HP listening then doing things like EQ, etc makes all the sense in the world, since the world of HP is a very different animal from what we are trying to send to our speakers.  But I see this as temporary, (or at least secondary listening once my music room is back).  But who knows, if grandkids ever make their way into our life, maybe I'll need to be quiet again. 

[firedog]

Bowers and Wilkens?

Sony

 

I'm not a headphone guy, but both have gotten excellent reviews in that price range. You can look at Amazon.

[Forehaven]

Ted, I have a pr. of Sennheiser HD650's if you want to try...

[esimms86]

It's times like these that you miss brick and mortar stores. There's obviously (sadly) no equivalent to Stereo Exchange(NYC) or Gramophone(Maryland) in your area. Best Buy stores tend to carry a few headphones in your price range in their Magnolia sections(mostly Sennheisers, though I have also seen Sony, AKG, Audioquest and Bowers and Wilkins headphones in various Best Buy stores).

[dalethorn]

5 minutes ago, esimms86 said:

It's times like these that you miss brick and mortar stores. There's obviously (sadly) no equivalent to Stereo Exchange(NYC) or Gramophone(Maryland) in your area. Best Buy stores tend to carry a few headphones in your price range in their Magnolia sections(mostly Sennheisers, though I have also seen Sony, AKG, Audioquest and Bowers and Wilkins headphones in various Best Buy stores).

 

It's interesting, that from 2009 through (2012 maybe?) the local Apple store, as well as Apple stores ranging from Ohio to Los Angeles, carried Sennheisers like the Momentum and Amperior, Philips like the O'Neill, V-MODAs like the LP, and many others.  Now what I see in the store are Beats, B&O, Bose, and numerous earbuds.  I suspect their acquisition of Beats pushed most of the others off the shelf, despite the fact that they have others online.

[dalethorn]

18 hours ago, ted_b said:

"....Carbon Nighthawks have more real color but their overall presence is soaked in some sort of midbass pool of "warmth" which to me is a bit too much, and a bit too (once again) artificial...."

 

Lots of people fall in love with the NightHawks (I did) when they found an amp that really tightened up the sound.  But, they'll always have a good measure of that warmth unless you push the sound in a too-sterile direction.

[ted_b]

I love warmth but this is like too much tube bloom. Maybe I’ll tube roll the mz2 and see what happens. Thx

[dalethorn]

4 hours ago, ted_b said:

I love warmth but this is like too much tube bloom. Maybe I’ll tube roll the mz2 and see what happens. Thx

 

I would never, ever use tubes with a NightHawk.  It needs very tight solid state.  There are people who'll try to sell a mismatch, but I'd avoid it.

[ted_b]

I have no choice, my headphone amp is the micro zotl. 

[davide256]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

I have no choice, my headphone amp is the micro zotl. 

The Tungsol SN7 power tubes that come with the MZ2 are ok but the Tungsol 12AT7 tubes are a bit "gritty" in sound.  Some NOS Telefunken 12AT7's will give

you a  fast, clean, neutral sound. Overall because of the Berning RF solution for a transformer-less design I don't hear much in the way of midrange coloration from pre tubes in the MZ2, the way I do with manufacturers like Woo using a conventional transformer or in main system pre's with transformer. What does vary is transient response crispness, high frequency roll off, and  some added distortion products with lesser tubes. If you are still using the stock tubes,  doesn't sound like the Nighthawk is the right head phone for you.

[ted_b]

Nope not stock tubes by any sort.  Those were gone day one.    I will tube roll both the 6SN7s and the 12AT7s and report back.  Using TS round plates and some Brimars right now, which fit perfectly with the speaker/amp/system, setup, but are clearly not right for the Nighthawks.

[ted_b]

So I rolled in some Sylvania Gold Brand 12AT7 variety and the Nighthawks sound much much better.  The bloom has been reduced to natural warmth in most cases.  I now very much like these cans! 

 

Question:  why should I spend the $699 for the Carbons when there are still the original "wood" Nighthawks out there for $299 from the likes of Music Direct ($259 for demos)?  Are the Carbons THAT much better?  I read a headfi post by the designer, Skylar Gray, at time of release:

"The sound signature is exactly the same. Based on some small refinements that we've made to a handful of the parts, we have noticed tighter manufacturing tolerances and consistency of the new NightHawk Carbon. All things being equal (A/B NightHawk Wood vs NightHawk Carbon with same earpads and cable and same amount of break-in), I don't expect anyone to hear a difference, but I may be surprised by forthcoming press and user reviews.
 
But the new cable is an improvement, and the extra, alternative set of ultra-suede earpads makes it possible to tailor the new NightHawk Carbon to personal preference.
 
Both the new cable and earpads will be available separately so existing NightHawk owners can get in on the fun."

 

So, this is interesting.  The various ear pads (mine came with the pleather) and different cables are now available.

 

[buonassi]

10 hours ago, ted_b said:

So I rolled in some Sylvania Gold Brand 12AT7 variety and the Nighthawks sound much much better.  The bloom has been reduced to natural warmth in most cases.  I now very much like these cans! 

 

Question:  why should I spend the $699 for the Carbons when there are still the original "wood" Nighthawks out there for $299 from the likes of Music Direct ($259 for demos)?  Are the Carbons THAT much better?  I read a headfi post by the designer, Skylar Gray, at time of release:

"The sound signature is exactly the same. Based on some small refinements that we've made to a handful of the parts, we have noticed tighter manufacturing tolerances and consistency of the new NightHawk Carbon. All things being equal (A/B NightHawk Wood vs NightHawk Carbon with same earpads and cable and same amount of break-in), I don't expect anyone to hear a difference, but I may be surprised by forthcoming press and user reviews.
 
But the new cable is an improvement, and the extra, alternative set of ultra-suede earpads makes it possible to tailor the new NightHawk Carbon to personal preference.
 
Both the new cable and earpads will be available separately so existing NightHawk owners can get in on the fun."

 

So, this is interesting.  The various ear pads (mine came with the pleather) and different cables are now available.

 

I too wonder why go carbon.  Seems the sonic deal is for the originals.  I have always wanted to hear this headphone.  I just may pick up a set.  resell them if I don't like them.  They are supposedly very kind and forgiving in the treble department - something that you can listen to indefinitely without ache brain.  

[dalethorn]

I spent a good bit of time EQ'ing my NightHawk, based on the average response of a dozen or so flagships, rather than just the NightHawk itself.

 

I think this curve is pretty representative of the sound.  The only vertical lines missing are 30, 300, and 3000 hz.  The horizontal lines are 6 db apart.

 

 

Note: EQ curve is inverse of response curve.

[pkane2001]

14 hours ago, dalethorn said:

I spent a good bit of time EQ'ing my NightHawk, based on the average response of a dozen or so flagships, rather than just the NightHawk itself.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. You EQ'ed your specific headphones based on the average response of dozens of other types of headphones (and not just NightHawks)? Why would this be a good thing to do?

 

[dalethorn]

9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. You EQ'ed your specific headphones based on the average response of dozens of other types of headphones (and not just NightHawks)? Why would this be a good thing to do?

 

 

I can only measure by ear, and using mainly test tones (to judge freq. response) could be biased somewhat by my hearing.  So even though it can be a long and tedious iterative process, listening to these other headphones ("flagships") goes a long way toward mitigating that bias.  Eventually you can even learn to "hear" a proper response with test tones, although again you have to stay grounded, and having access to several of these premium cans helps with that.

 

One small example -- if you hear a fairly strong 5 khz peak with one headphone and you're concerned whether it's your hearing, having 50 other headphones around settles that issue pretty well.  It's important too to have a really good fit with headphones, and to understand how shifts in the wearing position can affect the sound.

[pkane2001]

5 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

 

I can only measure by ear, and using mainly test tones (to judge freq. response) could be biased somewhat by my hearing.  So even though it can be a long and tedious iterative process, listening to these other headphones ("flagships") goes a long way toward mitigating that bias.  Eventually you can even learn to "hear" a proper response with test tones, although again you have to stay grounded, and having access to several of these premium cans helps with that.

 

One small example -- if you hear a fairly strong 5 khz peak with one headphone and you're concerned whether it's your hearing, having 50 other headphones around settles that issue pretty well.  It's important too to have a really good fit with headphones, and to understand how shifts in the wearing position can affect the sound.

 

Ah, I understand. So you compare NightHawks to other top-end cans and make adjustments so as to make it sound more like them. 

 

[dalethorn]

2 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Ah, I understand. So you compare NightHawks to other top-end cans and make adjustments so as to make it sound more like them. 

 

 

Not exactly that.  My first task is to reduce the effects of peaks and recesses as much as I can, based on what I described.  Then the next step is to correct any obvious colorations, as much as possible.  At that point, ideally, I should have a smoother sound that still has a lot of the unique color or personality of that headphone.  I think you or someone else noted that these "fixes" don't always work, or result in a satisfactory sound.  The NightHawk was great though.

 

EDIT: BTW, the NightHawk for me was one of those $600 buys I didn't regret at all.