Massdrop Focal "Elex"

[crenca]

4 hours ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

Yes, but only one's ears are involved, whereas with speakers there are other things going on. 

 

This is true, and at the risk of poking a hornets nest, one of the few areas where a HP system falls short when compared to a good two channel is the "dynamics" of live acoustic music - that "feel it in your chest and whole body" thing.

 

Fear not HP users, I am still a HP fan!!

[dalethorn]

4 hours ago, crenca said:

 

 

Dale,

 

I think you are misreading me.  I am in no way denying the " acoustic realities of speaker problems," or the many advantages of HP use.  All I am saying is that one of the few areas where two channel has a clear advantage is the much talked about soundstaging and imaging.  I don't even deny that HP give you a bit of this, but I am claiming (somewhat controversially) is that even what they give you is wrong - it is still "in the head" and not on a soundstage in front of you.  I know that many HP users don't agree with this, but as someone who is a season ticket holder to my local symphony and a jazz fan, I just can't convince myself that the soundstage I hear through HP (even the best of rigs) in any way approaches the soundstage of a well set up two channel when compared to the real thing.  I have never owned a top of the line 800(s) rig (what most HP enthusiasts point to as the archetypical "soundstaging" system) but I have listened to them at dealers/shows/meets and they have not changed my opinion.  Would quality time spent with this rig in my home make a difference?  I am not convinced and have not committed the $ to finding out.

 

All that said, HP for me give such an advantage in other areas that at least 80% of my listening through HP's...

 

Perhaps a simplification will do.  Yes, the sound is literally "in the head"**, but the "soundstage" is not necessarily in the head.  Binaural recording sound is just as physically in the head as otherwise, but the soundstage is not. 

 

Before anyone argues about binaural sound, I for a fact have many recordings (the Ellington Indigos on gold CD for example) that are NOT binaural that sound as good as or better than binaural recordings I've heard.  Soundstage particularly.

 

**We can also argue that not all of the headphone sound goes into your ears - some of it impacts your body, albeit a smaller segment of the body than with speakers in a room.

 

Note: There are many, many reasons why some users still believe that headphones still can't get it "right", and recorded quality is just part of it.  Another huge factor that's pretty much ignored by so-called experts is equalization, as it pertains to soundstage.  Get the equalization right, and soundstage blossoms like magic.  Been there, done that with 200 different headphones.

[dalethorn]

4 hours ago, crenca said:

 

This is true, and at the risk of poking a hornets nest, one of the few areas where a HP system falls short when compared to a good two channel is the "dynamics" of live acoustic music - that "feel it in your chest and whole body" thing.

 

Fear not HP users, I am still a HP fan!!

 

Mostly disagree.  I've been to many concerts (pop, country, acoustic, but no rock concerts), and never felt anything in my chest or other parts.  The pipe organ (tracker organ) concerts I've been to have generated a slight amount of anomalous "feel it" bass, but I feel as much or more in my ears.

 

Since I spent a few years with Stereophile-recommended speakers and can compare that sound to live concerts, it's clear to me that most of the speaker "feel it" is artificial or greatly exaggerated.

[jhwalker]

5 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

 

Mostly disagree.  I've been to many concerts (pop, country, acoustic, but no rock concerts), and never felt anything in my chest or other parts.  The pipe organ (tracker organ) concerts I've been to have generated a slight amount of anomalous "feel it" bass, but I feel as much or more in my ears.

 

Since I spent a few years with Stereophile-recommended speakers and can compare that sound to live concerts, it's clear to me that most of the speaker "feel it" is artificial or greatly exaggerated.

 

You must have NEVER been to a concert with a pipe organ Or an arena rock concert.  The sound is more "body" than "ears".

[dalethorn]

6 minutes ago, jhwalker said:

 

You must have NEVER been to a concert with a pipe organ Or an arena rock concert.  The sound is more "body" than "ears".

 

I've been to many pipe organ concerts, but I suspect you don't know what a tracker organ is.  There is very little "feel", and zero body impact.

 

Anyone who values the "body impact" that much just doesn't fall into what I call a music-lover class of person.  That person might actually prefer car racing or surfing, and settle for "feel-it" music when they're too tired for outdoor adventure.  I prefer the sound of music myself.

[AMR/iFi audio]

17 hours ago, dalethorn said:

 

I've been to many pipe organ concerts, but I suspect you don't know what a tracker organ is.  There is very little "feel", and zero body impact.

 

Anyone who values the "body impact" that much just doesn't fall into what I call a music-lover class of person.  That person might actually prefer car racing or surfing, and settle for "feel-it" music when they're too tired for outdoor adventure.  I prefer the sound of music myself.

 

...or we can also say that headphones and speakers are apples and oranges and call it a day maybe? 

 

I mean, we can go on like this literally forever 

[dalethorn]

1 hour ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

...or we can also say that headphones and speakers are apples and oranges and call it a day maybe? 

 

I mean, we can go on like this literally forever 

 

Actually, I never start the headphone versus speaker "debates", but I feel pretty good about debunking the most common myths of speaker superiority, since many headphone users benefit from that.

[GUTB]

After having heard the Utopia's superb Beryllium drivers I can't really recommend a lesser dynamic. Go Beryllium or go home.

 

I have a $5.4k amp and $2.5k speakers. The realism, dynamics and resolution of the Utopias running through a $800 Mjolnir 2 makes a mockery out of my speaker setup. That's just a fact. I have no idea how much a competitive speaker system would cost -- certainly well into the five figures at least.

[Mshenay]

3 hours ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

...or we can also say that headphones and speakers are apples and oranges and call it a day maybe? 

 

I mean, we can go on like this literally forever 

 

Speakers vs headphone really can go on forever, an I'm not qualified to debunk any myths for either side. Here's to trying to steer this conversation back to the Elex!!! 

 

22 minutes ago, GUTB said:

After having heard the Utopia's superb Beryllium drivers I can't really recommend a lesser dynamic. Go Beryllium or go home.

 

I have a $5.4k amp and $2.5k speakers. The realism, dynamics and resolution of the Utopias running through a $800 Mjolnir 2 makes a mockery out of my speaker setup. That's just a fact. I have no idea how much a competitive speaker system would cost -- certainly well into the five figures at least.

 

Yea that said, I can't say I really LOVED the Utopia but even out of a cell phone it was pretty stunning, Focal's reputation standing I don't think this will be another "flavor" of the month headphone like the Elear was. Massdrop has consistently delivered excellent sounding products at amazing prices, which is the result of feed back from users in the community before launch. An with the launch of the CLEAR I think Focal figured out what improvements were needed for it's...non-flagship headphone. 

 

That said, I'm pretty confident this one will be worth the recommendations it get's. The Elear is not and was not a headphone worth owning...  despite what Tyll says I didn't like it and only recommend to people who ONLY want to own a headphone and NEVER anything else... EVER. Other wise if you plan to buy even a basic Dac/Amp there are better options 

 

The Elex with Massdrops Development and by ear tuning tweaks behind it should really blow the competition away! Much like the HE 4XX and HD 6XX and TH X00 have done. 

[crenca]

49 minutes ago, Mshenay said:

 

That said, I'm pretty confident this one will be worth the recommendations it get's. The Elear is not and was not a headphone worth owning...  

 

I don't share your confidence Mshenay, but we both are speculating of course.  Do the "damping" tweaks really fix the Elear's significant frequency response issues in this Elex version?  I also think the Elear is a great HP -IF (and only if) you are willing and able to EQ/DSP it back into shape.

 

I don't like the HD6XX either for all the usual HD650 reasons.  The HE 4XX (which I am listening to right now) is defiantly worth $169 and then some...

[Mshenay]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

I don't share your confidence Mshenay, but we both are speculating of course.  Do the "damping" tweaks really fix the Elear's significant frequency response issues in this Elex version?  I also think the Elear is a great HP -IF (and only if) you are willing and able to EQ/DSP it back into shape.

 

I don't like the HD6XX either for all the usual HD650 reasons.  The HE 4XX (which I am listening to right now) is defiantly worth $169 and then some...

 

Well from the brief time I spent with the HD 6XX I felt it was worth wile, though I too personally prefer the HE 4XX over the HD 6XX  but my tastes are not reflective of every ones. An you could be right, still the measurements alone show an increase in upper mid range response as well as a decrease in low frequencies, this should result in quite a boost to the presence of instruments. This lack of presence is what I found so off putting about the Elear. 

 

 

 

[GUTB]

The HD6xx series is plastic junk from the 90s, avoid.

 

Also, don't get fooled by headphone "mods" -- certainly not in any hi-fi headphone product. These do nothing but make headphones worse, beware.

[crenca]

6 minutes ago, Mshenay said:

 

Well from the brief time I spent with the HD 6XX I felt it was worth wile, though I too personally prefer the HE 4XX over the HD 6XX  but my tastes are not reflective of every ones. An you could be right, still the measurements alone show an increase in upper mid range response as well as a decrease in low frequencies, this should result in quite a boost to the presence of instruments. This lack of presence is what I found so off putting about the Elear. 

 

 

 

 

Yep, the Elear simply is not "complete" if you are not EQing presence region, 10k spike, etc.  Luckily, the design "takes" to EQing pretty well  - no funky artifacts/breakup that I can hear. I actually don't do much with the bass but perhaps that makes me a bass head.  On the other hand, I find the  mid bass hump of the HD6XX ruinous to the lower mid/mid balance that no amount of EQing can really fix (even if it does mitigate it some).  What bothers me just as much is the graininess of the HD6XX treble.  I find the top end of the AT M50x more listenable.  IMO (and thats all it is) the HD6XX, like the rest of Sennheiser line, is outdated and yesterday's sound.  Tyl's review of the "new" (read the review - you have to put "new" in quotes) 660S is devastating.  Sennheiser is obviously either not able or unwilling (maybe lack of development $dollars$ ? ) to innovate...

[Mshenay]

I'll be frank, I don't really recommend any of the Sennhesier line outside of the HD 25-1 ii [or what ever it's called now] and that's because of it's durability only [and even that I listen to with a deep, thin sharp dip at 8.4khrz] and the HD 800. I've owned the HD 600 in the past and I quite liked it but not enough to keep it! I can't say I discourage people from buying the HD 6XX because it has it's merits as some will like the little hump but I don't... 

 

Either way I don't own a single open back can of theirs outside of the HD 800 because I just don't like any of them enough compared to other options. A shame to hear that even Tyll wasn't a fan of the 660s... 

 

As for Sennhesiers lack of innovation, Focals now three models in the $1000ish price point may push them to change things up a bit... hopefully! The HD 800 with an SDR mod is impressive as others have said but having to mod a headphone or pay more for the "corrected" model that in reality has more distortion than it's predecessor [if you consider the HD 800 as the predecessor to the more costly 800S] hardly seems like the right thing to do to continue to dominate any market

[pkane2001]

30 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Yep, the Elear simply is not "complete" if you are not EQing presence region, 10k spike, etc.  Luckily, the design "takes" to EQing pretty well  - no funky artifacts/breakup that I can hear. I actually don't do much with the bass but perhaps that makes me a bass head.  On the other hand, I find the  mid bass hump of the HD6XX ruinous to the lower mid/mid balance that no amount of EQing can really fix (even if it does mitigate it some).  What bothers me just as much is the graininess of the HD6XX treble.  I find the top end of the AT M50x more listenable.  IMO (and thats all it is) the HD6XX, like the rest of Sennheiser line, is outdated and yesterday's sound.  Tyl's review of the "new" (read the review - you have to put "new" in quotes) 660S is devastating.  Sennheiser is obviously either not able or unwilling (maybe lack of development $dollars$ ? ) to innovate...

Interesting. I don't profess to have much experience with headphones. Bought HD650 recently for under $200 (used). With EQ, the response is as flat as I like it to be, with no major humps. Bass is solid, much better than I had expected. And I have none of the problems you describe in treble after EQ. I made balanced cables for mine, and use DSP to apply crossfeed. I'm sure there are better headphones out there, but did you try to EQ HD6XX? I do find the uncorrected HD650s a bit harsh at the top.

[AMR/iFi audio]

17 hours ago, Mshenay said:

As for Sennhesiers lack of innovation, Focals now three models in the $1000ish price point may push them to change things up a bit... hopefully! 

 

Many of us look forward to the next big Sennheisers. But something tells me that now they'll have it much more difficult than years back when HD 800 was released.

[crenca]

23 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Interesting. I don't profess to have much experience with headphones. Bought HD650 recently for under $200 (used). With EQ, the response is as flat as I like it to be, with no major humps. Bass is solid, much better than I had expected. And I have none of the problems you describe in treble after EQ. I made balanced cables for mine, and use DSP to apply crossfeed. I'm sure there are better headphones out there, but did you try to EQ HD6XX? I do find the uncorrected HD650s a bit harsh at the top.

 

Well shucks pkane2001, maybe I did not try hard enough with EQ.  As far as the treble, I seem to be swimming upstream so perhaps it is a sample issue, or a synergistic issue with my Jotunheim amp??  OR, perhaps my expectations are too high but really, it has that graininess to it that seems immune from EQ (other than recessing it so that you don't notice it). Like I said in my review, the mids (voice, etc.) are good so...

[davide256]

On 12/17/2017 at 11:12 PM, dalethorn said:

 

Mostly disagree.  I've been to many concerts (pop, country, acoustic, but no rock concerts), and never felt anything in my chest or other parts.  The pipe organ (tracker organ) concerts I've been to have generated a slight amount of anomalous "feel it" bass, but I feel as much or more in my ears.

 

Since I spent a few years with Stereophile-recommended speakers and can compare that sound to live concerts, it's clear to me that most of the speaker "feel it" is artificial or greatly exaggerated.

Attending a concert with the Navy or Air Force doing a "big band" program would provide that physical sensation.  Big band music was the "rock" music of its day;  loud, forceful music without electronic amplification.

[jhwalker]

On 12/17/2017 at 10:28 PM, dalethorn said:

 

I've been to many pipe organ concerts, but I suspect you don't know what a tracker organ is.  There is very little "feel", and zero body impact.

 

Anyone who values the "body impact" that much just doesn't fall into what I call a music-lover class of person.  That person might actually prefer car racing or surfing, and settle for "feel-it" music when they're too tired for outdoor adventure.  I prefer the sound of music myself.

 

I've been a professional classical musician for 35 years, thank you - so, yeah, I know what a tracker organ is. LOL.

 

No need to throw around the "music-lover" vs. "feel-it" BS, either.  I used to have you blocked, and now I remember why.  Back to the block list.

[dalethorn]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

Attending a concert with the Navy or Air Force doing a "big band" program would provide that physical sensation.  Big band music was the "rock" music of its day;  loud, forceful music without electronic amplification.

 

I support the local police when they support Special Olympics, and in doing so I get a dozen Krispy Kremes and a hat.  But I don't eat the donuts, and I don't listen to wumpum-wumpum-wumpum muzak.

[dalethorn]

1 hour ago, jhwalker said:

 

I've been a professional classical musician for 35 years, thank you - so, yeah, I know what a tracker organ is. LOL.

 

No need to throw around the "music-lover" vs. "feel-it" BS, either.  I used to have you blocked, and now I remember why.  Back to the block list.

 

Block away, but you still have zero idea about tracker organs, which goes to your credibility, not mine.

[davide256]

On 12/17/2017 at 11:28 PM, dalethorn said:

 

I've been to many pipe organ concerts, but I suspect you don't know what a tracker organ is.  There is very little "feel", and zero body impact.

 

Anyone who values the "body impact" that much just doesn't fall into what I call a music-lover class of person.  That person might actually prefer car racing or surfing, and settle for "feel-it" music when they're too tired for outdoor adventure.  I prefer the sound of music myself.

 

Tracker is the key control mechanism type, it has nothing to do with what the lowest note pipes of the organ are.

Your music education appears  limited. Try some Harry James if you want to correct that.

 

 

[dalethorn]

5 hours ago, davide256 said:

 

Tracker is the key control mechanism type, it has nothing to do with what the lowest note pipes of the organ are.

Your music education appears  limited. Try some Harry James if you want to correct that.

 

 

 

Wow - wave your ignorance like a flag.  Try "low pressure" versus "high pressure" pipes.  Very different type of organ with very different sound.  

[kumakuma]

4 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

 

Wow - wave your ignorance like a flag.  Try "low pressure" versus "high pressure" pipes.  Very different type of organ with very different sound.  

 

I have been following this with interest.

 

As far as I can tell, tracker is just a way of allowing wind to enter the pipes and is a mechanical method as opposed to pneumatic or electrical actions.

 

Are you saying that tracker organs have a different sound than organs that use other kinds of actions?

 

Can you provide a reference so I can learn more?

[dalethorn]

4 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I have been following this with interest.

 

As far as I can tell, tracker is just a way of allowing wind to enter the pipes and is a mechanical method as opposed to pneumatic or electrical actions.

 

Are you saying that tracker organs have a different sound than organs that use other kinds of actions?

 

Can you provide a reference so I can learn more?

 

I found this by google in about 5 seconds.  You can find a lot more.  The primary reason churches go for trackers isn't the nitpicky aspects of fingering and stop-pulling - it's the sound.

 

That said of course, I suppose someone could build a hybrid organ so as to get the worst features of both.  Fortunately that isn't the rule.

 

http://www.savetheorgan.org/tracker.htm