blu ray audio

[johnnyj]

I would like to use my computer and usb dac (idsd) for blurays - either playing ripped blu rays or directly with powerdvd.  I am doing so because I want the highest quality audio for blurays and from what I understand, a blu ray player will not pass through lossless audio via coax or optical to an external dac (due to bandwith limitations or other restrictions) - only HDMI will, which requires a de-embedder.  And I believe my dac, or an even better usb dac, will better the analog outputs of an oppo player.  The question I have is whether I can transmit lossless audio from the computer (mpc and power dvd, include the decoders) to the usb dac and then the analog outputs of the dac to my amps, or whether that configuration is subject to the same limitations as a blu ray player.   Thank you.

[ElviaCaprice]

Once you ripped to hard drive the digital content, bit perfect, your golden.  Then it's just a preference of media player from PC to DAC.  For best audio performance you can upgrade power supplies and clocks.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

4 hours ago, johnnyj said:

I would like to use my computer and usb dac (idsd) for blurays - either playing ripped blu rays or directly with powerdvd.  I am doing so because I want the highest quality audio for blurays and from what I understand, a blu ray player will not pass through lossless audio via coax or optical to an external dac (due to bandwith limitations or other restrictions) - only HDMI will, which requires a de-embedder.  And I believe my dac, or an even better usb dac, will better the analog outputs of an oppo player.  The question I have is whether I can transmit lossless audio from the computer (mpc and power dvd, include the decoders) to the usb dac and then the analog outputs of the dac to my amps, or whether that configuration is subject to the same limitations as a blu ray player.   Thank you.

I do not know the playback software you are using in detail.  I use JRiver for playback of Redfox decrypted BD rips as ISO or decrypted by MKV in hirez.  JRiver decodes DTS HDMA or Dolby THD to LPCM at the recorded hirez sampling rate (typically 24-bit at 48k or higher) and provides Mch output via USB to my Exasound E28 DAC.  I also apply bass management in JRiver and use the Dirac Live VST plugin.  No major problems for me, and it sounds terrific.

[johnnyj]

I am using MKV to rip and MPC HC to play - MPC has the decoders like JRiver.  I am running the dac direct to my amps using the volume control of MPC HC.  My concern is since bluray players can only transmit a hirez lossless decoded to PCM signal digitally via HDMI if I could do so via USB.    I'm new to this so any suggestions would be welcome - do you find any audio or video quality differences between playing the disc directly with redfox and playing the ripped version from HD?  Regardless, I would imagine that both of your configurations would be of a higher quality, at least for audio, than any bluray player. 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

20 minutes ago, johnnyj said:

I am using MKV to rip and MPC HC to play - MPC has the decoders like JRiver.  I am running the dac direct to my amps using the volume control of MPC HC.  My concern is since bluray players can only transmit a hirez lossless decoded to PCM signal digitally via HDMI if I could do so via USB.    I'm new to this so any suggestions would be welcome - do you find any audio or video quality differences between playing the disc directly with redfox and playing the ripped version from HD?  Regardless, I would imagine that both of your configurations would be of a higher quality, at least for audio, than any bluray player. 

Once the BD has been unlocked by Redfox, MKV, etc., there is no problem on audio via USB with JRiver or, I expect, with most playback software.  

 

I no longer use MKV.  It was becoming too difficult to locate the playlist for the main feature with video BDs. BD-As are likely not a problem.

 

 Redfox is not a player, just a decrypter.  I can rip files with it in conjunction with JRiver.  Or, I can play BD-A or BD-V discs directly from my BD optical drive with on the fly decryption. In either case, JRiver controls the process, including the audio.

 

Yes, absolutely no question in my mind that BD audio sounds much better via JRiver with Dirac Live and USB to my Exasound DAC than it would via analog or HDMI out from a regular universal player.  On video BD from the PC, USB carries the audio and HDMI the video to my monitor.  I have seen no video quality differences vs. direct HDMI from a player.

 

Incidentally, there are a few software packages that will separate ripped BD-A chapters into individual FLAC tracks for tagging.  I have tested one - Audiomuxer - and it works from ISOs or MKVs, but I have not yet embarked on doing that for all my BD-As.

[johnnyj]

thank you. do  you find any audio/video quality differences between playing a blu ray movie disc from your optical drive and the same ripped file from your HD? I agree ripping br with mkv is a pain - time consuming and confusing  I would consider purchasing red fox if you are satisfied that is works well.  I tried power dvd but it constantly froze.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

4 hours ago, johnnyj said:

thank you. do  you find any audio/video quality differences between playing a blu ray movie disc from your optical drive and the same ripped file from your HD? I agree ripping br with mkv is a pain - time consuming and confusing  I would consider purchasing red fox if you are satisfied that is works well.  I tried power dvd but it constantly froze.

Answer.  No, none that I noticed.  It is actually quite obvious that there is no discernible difference.  I tested it early in my experience with PC rips, JRiver, Exasound, etc.

 

 

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, johnnyj said:

 

thank you. do  you find any audio/video quality differences between playing a blu ray movie disc from your optical drive and the same ripped file from your HD?

 

 

However, there is a world of difference between playing a BR music disc using a player such as Power DVD, and playing the EXTRACTED Audio ONLY with a dedicated AUDIO software player.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

However, there is a world of difference between playing a BR music disc using a player such as Power DVD, and playing the EXTRACTED Audio ONLY with a dedicated AUDIO software player.

Not sure what you are saying.  In my case, I use only JRiver for playback.  Using that, I have compared playback from the $50 Pioneer BD optical drive in my PC, rips to ISO and MKV and extracts from those rips to FLAC via Audiomuxer.  Honestly, I heard no discernible difference.

 

So, are you criticising Power DVD, using the optical player or both?  

[sandyk]

42 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

So, are you criticising Power DVD, using the optical player or both?  

 

 Typical software such as Power DVD which would be used for BR playback on most PCs, is optimised for Video, and has nowhere near the SQ of a dedicated multi media player designed mainly for Audio.

Have you tried ripping them to, and playing directly from .wav or .aiff instead of playing .flac on the fly ?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

15 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Typical software such as Power DVD which would be used for BR playback on most PCs, is optimised for Video, and has nowhere near the SQ of a dedicated multi media player designed mainly for Audio.

Have you tried ripping them to, and playing directly from .wav or .aiff instead of playing .flac on the fly ?

Nope.  I used uncompressed FLAC in my limited experiments with chapter extracts to individual tracks.  I see or hear no compelling evidence that WAV or AIFF is better, though unsubstantiated anecdotes exist to the contrary. That, plus FLAC is taggable for my library and the other formats are not.  I also heard no meaningful difference between compressed and uncompressed FLAC files, and my I7 PC does not break a sweat in terms of computing resources in any case.

 

But, normally, I play the ISO or MKV rip as is with on the fly decoding of the compressed DTS HDMA or Dolby THD to uncompressed LPCM by JRiver, with accompanying DSP for bass management and Dirac.  Sounds great, by the way.   FLAC, WAV, AIFF also require format conversion to LPCM, though some might need insignificantly more computing resources. 

 

 

[johnnyj]

Related to the Cookie Marenco quote by Sandyk, ripped cds played from my HD sound better than the original CD played from my optical drive.  I am using BR discs for movies only, and thought that the soundtrack from ripped movies played from HD would sound better than the disc played from the optical drive.  Playing blu rays - ripped or directly - from my PC is a bit of a pain - the only software that works for me is MPC HC, which is basically windows media player - I think that is similar to JRIver. I'm very new tot his so any other suggestions would of course be welcome.  

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I also have heard small differences between CD discs and their ripped FLAC or WAV files, slightly preferring the rips. But, no huge deal to me.  My music listening is almost entirely Mch from SACD rips or downloaded files anyway.

 

I cannot say that I have heard similar disc vs. rip differences for BD DTS HDMA or Dolby THD, but I did not compare extensively.  There might be reason to believe that these losslessly compressed codecs are more immune to disc vs. rip differences.  I use BD primarily for Mch music videos from rips, except for the occasional Netflix BD movie directly from the silver disc, and they sound mighty good to me.

 

I am not familiar with MPC HC, but, yes, JRiver started years ago as an alternative to Windows Media Player.  But, it has grown since then into a much more comprehensive system, in audio as well as video.  Its flexibility and control functions have enabled me to eliminate completely the HT prepro from my system in a direct Multimedia PC to USB DAC configuration for audio, with HDMI for video signal only, including TV.  So, no cable box either.  An HD Homerun Prime tuner on my network plus a FIOS cable card handles TV.

[johnnyj]

thanks, Fitzcaraldo.  I think I'll forgo the ripping of blurays and play them directly.  From what I can see it's either red fox or powerdvd.  Do you recommend one over the other?  Red Fox is more expensive but I seem to recall that power dvd downconverts blurays to a lower audio resolution.  

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Just to be clear wth Redfox, I was talking about their AnyDVDHD product, which is a decrypter/unlocker, not a player.  As far as I know, they do not make a player.  So, it must be used in conjunction with player software, and, as I said, I use it in conjunction with JRiver.

 

I have never used PowerDVD, and I think @sandyk 's comments about it may be on target.

[johnnyj]

follow up question - I am considering purchasing a legacy dac - monarchy audio m24 -  I use red fox to decrypt blu rays and mpchc to play them - if I feed that dac with a usb to spdif converter will I still have the lossless blu ray audio (for movies).  From what I understand if using a standalone blu ray player one can not send lossless audio over coax.  Not sure of that same limitation would apply when using a computer - many thanks John  

[gmgraves]

On 11/21/2017 at 8:38 AM, johnnyj said:

I would like to use my computer and usb dac (idsd) for blurays - either playing ripped blu rays or directly with powerdvd.  I am doing so because I want the highest quality audio for blurays and from what I understand, a blu ray player will not pass through lossless audio via coax or optical to an external dac (due to bandwith limitations or other restrictions) - only HDMI will, which requires a de-embedder.  And I believe my dac, or an even better usb dac, will better the analog outputs of an oppo player.  The question I have is whether I can transmit lossless audio from the computer (mpc and power dvd, include the decoders) to the usb dac and then the analog outputs of the dac to my amps, or whether that configuration is subject to the same limitations as a blu ray player.   Thank you.

That's interesting, my Sony Blu-ray player outputs digital audio via coax at that file's native resolution. You can watch the sampling rate/bit depth LEDs change to 24/96 when inserting an audio Blu-Ray disc. Can't speak to 24/176.4 or 24/196 because I don't have any audio Blu-Rays in those formats. 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

On 9/7/2018 at 1:01 PM, johnnyj said:

follow up question - I am considering purchasing a legacy dac - monarchy audio m24 -  I use red fox to decrypt blu rays and mpchc to play them - if I feed that dac with a usb to spdif converter will I still have the lossless blu ray audio (for movies).  From what I understand if using a standalone blu ray player one can not send lossless audio over coax.  Not sure of that same limitation would apply when using a computer - many thanks John  

I play hirez audio from my PC in PCM all the time via USB, including ripped BD files and discs via the BD optical drive in the PC.  No problem.  It is limited only by the DAC.  You cannot bitstream DSD files via HDMI from the PC, however, although you can via USB if the DAC supports it.  But, that does not pertain to BD.

 

The USB/spdif converter may have its own sampling rate limitations.

 

I don’t know the Monarchy DAC.  The hot, inexpensive DACs over at ASR Forum are the Toppings.  Excellent measurements are provided at ASR.  The Monarchy has not been on their radar screen.  The Toppings accept USB directly, and they perform well with it.  I see no advantage whatsoever to spdif or conversion to it.  I think anti-USB tribalism has a very weak foundation not supported by measurements or bias controlled listening on competent DACs.  

[johnnyj]

gmgraves - is the native resolution audio you are referencing for blu ray movies?  And if so may I ask which sony player you are using? it was my understanding that blu ray players contain a protected audio path due to cinavia/ drm which limits high res to hdmi which requires the "handshake." My concern was whether that also applied to a computer but Fitzcaraldo answered that question - it appears it does not.

[gmgraves]

9 hours ago, johnnyj said:

gmgraves - is the native resolution audio you are referencing for blu ray movies?  And if so may I ask which sony player you are using? it was my understanding that blu ray players contain a protected audio path due to cinavia/ drm which limits high res to hdmi which requires the "handshake." My concern was whether that also applied to a computer but Fitzcaraldo answered that question - it appears it does not.

No. I don't have any Blu-Ray movies But I have a number of Blu-Ray audio discs. They output 24/96 data from the SPDIF coax output on the back. My Yggdrasil DAC switched to 24/96 when I hit "play" on Blu-Ray player.  

[Fitzcaraldo215]

23 hours ago, johnnyj said:

gmgraves - is the native resolution audio you are referencing for blu ray movies?  And if so may I ask which sony player you are using? it was my understanding that blu ray players contain a protected audio path due to cinavia/ drm which limits high res to hdmi which requires the "handshake." My concern was whether that also applied to a computer but Fitzcaraldo answered that question - it appears it does not.

BluRay videos are almost always in 48k/24. Few are higher than that.  I think I have a few San Francisco Symphony albums and a Concertgeboow Mahler cycle at 96k.

 

BD-As are often at 96k. The 2L label has some with stereo at 192k and Mch at 96k or 192k.

 

Usually, the stereo is unencoded LPCM.  The Mch typically uses a lossless codec, either DTS HD MA or Dolby THD.  The PC player software should be capable of decoding those codecs prior to a DAC for Mch.  I use JRiver.  HT players and processors can also decode.  

[johnnyj]

thanks to both.  this is very confusing but from what I understand br players will output native pcm from spdif coax but not decoded lossless tracks (DTS MA or DOLBY THD) - those tracks are downsampled and the lossy "core" is transmitted.  The explanation by sony and other manufacturers is this is due to "bandwith" limitations - but from what I've read it is the result of drm/protected audio path/cinavia restricitons.  My software (MPC HC which is similar to jriver) decodes the lossless tracks but the question I have is whether they would be downsampled to the lossy core like in a player.     

[Fitzcaraldo215]

1 hour ago, johnnyj said:

thanks to both.  this is very confusing but from what I understand br players will output native pcm from spdif coax but not decoded lossless tracks (DTS MA or DOLBY THD) - those tracks are downsampled and the lossy "core" is transmitted.  The explanation by sony and other manufacturers is this is due to "bandwith" limitations - but from what I've read it is the result of drm/protected audio path/cinavia restricitons.  My software (MPC HC which is similar to jriver) decodes the lossless tracks but the question I have is whether they would be downsampled to the lossy core like in a player.     

On BDs, the lossless codecs are usually only used for the Mch stream.  Most BDs have a menu choice on playback of the uncompressed LPCM stereo stream or the Mch codec, as both exist on the BD itself.  So, for stereo, there is usually no issue even with spdif/Toslink..

 

HDMI output can handle any of the streams, including LPCM stereo,  depending on player settings.  The Mch codecs can be decoded by the player to Mch LPCM or they can be bitstreamed as codecs for decoding by a downstream processor.

 

But, yes, spdif/Toslink can handle Mch only as the lossy core of the codec due to bandwidth.

[johnnyj]

I've never seen a choice of both the uncompressed LPCM stereo stream and the lossless multichannel codec.  Every blu ray I watched offers a choice as the primary stream either PCM - almost always multichannel - and this is rare (2001 is the only disc I've seen with a native PCM offering) or dtsma or dolby THD, again almost always multichannel, but some newer discs, primarily criterion, offer the original mono or stereo mix in lossless.  the other options are usually the mono or stereo mix (for example the James Bond films offer this) but those are marked as lossy (dolby digital or just DTS).    The disc I was testing last night was Apocalypse Now which offer dts ma 7.1 as the only stream.  Q is if I play it on a BR player or computer and it is downmixed to 2 channel and decoded to pcm will it convert to the lossy track if played through coax.  I'll try it myself and use my ears but don't know if there is any objective way of determining this - MPC HC only indicates the sampling rate of 48, which I believe is the same for lossless and lossy.  I tried any dvd hd which usually works but the BR movies are much easier to play through a player - just want to make sure I'm not compromising with the SQ. 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I may be out of date with my BDs and I always listen in Mch.  So, I don’t even look anymore to see if there is an LPCM stereo stream.  But, I used to, and the BD menu defaulted to it rather than a Mch codec on my Oppo player. It does not seem to do that with JRiver playback on the PC.  So, I don’t even see it anymore.

 

There are no rigid standards for this in BD authoring.  So, perhaps more recent BDs have dropped the LPCM stereo choice from the discs. It was prevalent, though, before.