Beginner's Guide to Digital Audio Playback System

[rando]

Mortal men can walk up a hill far enough to rise above the clouds.  Yet all of us start at the bottom and often with less than refined equipment.  What is important on this journey is ability to discern one's own abilities and slowly nurture them. 

 

Everyone goes up there for different reasons.  Few go with the necessary mentality, respect in the face of insurmountable odds, and style is everything.  Keen awareness of anything but sales opportunities and braggadocio rarely appear in the valleys that service such pursuits.  

 

I reiterate there is nothing wrong with studying.  Placing yourself into the lower stratus of the environs always makes a better student though.  Some things simply cannot be taught.  This is the only system worth listing in the face of claims equipment makes the man.

[mansr]

18 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Why don't you list your system?

For you to mock? I don't think so.

 

Where have I said anything, the validity of which depends on the equipment I happen to possess?

[beerandmusic]

26 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I disagree on "veils rent", its not common but it happens

 

AR turntable vs the competition

NAD3020 vs the competition

Hafler DH200 vs the competition

Magnepan 1.7 vs the competition

Microzotl2 vs the competition

microRendu vs the competition

 

all products that have in their "weight class"  caused me some degree of jaw dropping, and pocketbook happiness.

 

As to "80% of whats currently possible", how satisfied would one be with an eReader that got 20% of the text wrong? So that statement is a little too coarse to pass muster. Its a given for the component price range below $1K that for most products the bass is going to be rolled off or very inaccurate, tone color will be weak or exaggerated or detail resolution will be weak. And that's ok for those who aren't hobbyists, for whom audio playback is just a background, not their passion. However if you are critical and a cheapskate about audio as I am, its very difficult to buy system components of audiophile quality for under $1K

 

A good sub is the Velodyne DD 12 HGS which can be found for less than $500.  Non-ported, servo, VERY HEAVY, can't be beat for price.  A current sub of this design will set you back $2k+.

[beerandmusic]

For the NEWBIE, i would simply suggest they buy the best speakers they can within their budget, then amp.

Get and Learn Roon

Get either a network player (streamer/dac like lumin d2) or network adapter and dac.

Start playing and learn the Roon Gui....

 

If they can't afford Roon or if they prefer file management, Get Jriver.

 

This will take them into the next decade that they will be happy with.

 

Disclaimer: If they like to tinker, forget all of above and start reading forums.

[rickca]

Deleted

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, rickca said:

It won't get them to next week if they're like you.  

 

Although I do change my hardware daily on my office setup, i do leave my living room setup alone (wink)....

 

I am just waiting on what comes first (mcintosh integrated with network port added to the dac module, or network player meeting my checklist for under $2k).......

 

Then i can really retire.

[BigGuy]

16 hours ago, GUTB said:

I feel sorry for newbies in this arena. The general community is flooded with garbage and false information, usually perpetuated by people who've never heard high end audio once in their lives, and new people can't discern the quality level of the info they are getting. This is further complicated by the fact that many people who get into this aren't actually that interested in audio quality gains, but are rather more interested in the community and/or lifestyle aspects, so even if they come across high quality information it may not actually be of interest to them.

The people I reference are "newbies" with regard to computer audio personally but certainly well aware of high quality in terms of sound, both digital and analog, if not high end in terms of cost being fellow members with myself in the local audio society.  Many have been members of the society for 20-30 years. While these people certainly have a brain trust, both internal and external, to fill in details and provide guidance in terms of their own implementation, my interest here was in finding an overview(s) to provide a self-directed basis for further discussion.  Even though we had members who were actively enjoying computer audio for years, I spent more than a year reading and discussing before personally taking the plunge and was hoping to speed up the learning curve for this group.

 

 

[Johnseye]

On 11/16/2017 at 3:01 PM, BigGuy said:

Have several friends interested in getting started with PC or Mac-based music server systems and playback.  Would like to provide article(s) which would introduce various aspects.  I have found Michael Lavorgna's "Computer Audio 101" series but wondered if there were other white papers out there that were as good or better?

 

I would direct them to Austinpop/Romaz's thread.  It has a good index with links and we cover every aspect of building a PC or Mac based server in it.  It's the best resource of info I've found because we take what we've learned elsewhere, including on our own, and bring it there.

[BigGuy]

3 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I would direct them to Austinpop/Romaz's thread.  It has a good index with links and we cover every aspect of building a PC or Mac based server in it.  It's the best resource of info I've found because we take what we've learned elsewhere, including on our own, and bring it there.

Thanks.   Will check it out if you indicate the thread title...or better yet, provide a link.

[Johnseye]

8 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Thanks.   Will check it out if you indicate the thread title...or better yet, provide a link.

 

 

[beerandmusic]

27 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I would direct them to Austinpop/Romaz's thread.  It has a good index with links and we cover every aspect of building a PC or Mac based server in it.  It's the best resource of info I've found because we take what we've learned elsewhere, including on our own, and bring it there.

+1

I second that thread especially for those that really want to get into the weeds.  For those that would prefer to get going, just have them get network player or network adapter+dac and ROON...

[BigGuy]

11 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

+1

I second that thread especially for those that really want to get into the weeds.  For those that would prefer to get going, just have them get network player or network adapter+dac and ROON...

Will definitely pass along the link and even browse it myself for nuggets.

 

Interested parties, like myself, have  decades of CDs and SACDs that they would like to archive and and listen to conveniently.  Again, like myself, most are not interested in streaming via Roon, Tidal, etc.

 

Do not want to start a "my dad is bigger than your dad" flamewar but I will mention a recent experience with streaming.  A friend was auditioning a pair of speakers and started listening to a number of our favorite tracks via Tidal.  I had also brought a burned CD containing many of the same tracks.  Cannot speak to specifics of the streamer setup but will say that both he and I thought the streaming while quite good was lower sound quality than the disc playback.

[beerandmusic]

11 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Will definitely pass along the link and even browse it myself for nuggets.

 

Interested parties, like myself, have  decades of CDs and SACDs that they would like to archive and and listen to conveniently.  Again, like myself, most are not interested in streaming via Roon, Tidal, etc.

 

Do not want to start a "my dad is bigger than your dad" flamewar but I will mention a recent experience with streaming.  A friend was auditioning a pair of speakers and started listening to a number of our favorite tracks via Tidal.  I had also brought a burned CD containing many of the same tracks.  Cannot speak to specifics of the streamer setup but will say that both he and I thought the streaming while quite good was lower sound quality than the disc playback.

 

Myself and many others have experienced this as well....My reference system includes a marantz ud7007 and a few SACDs.

I haven't tried Tidal, but believe is FLAC?  Should be bested with native DSD over ethernet.

The main advantage to TIdal is the quantity (and better than typical mp3 streaming)...

 

I have found that native DSD over ethernet will best upsampled DSD.

 

In your testing, are you using the digital out of your transport to a DAC or the embedded DAC and analog out?

 

 

 

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Do not want to start a "my dad is bigger than your dad" flamewar but I will mention a recent experience with streaming.  A friend was auditioning a pair of speakers and started listening to a number of our favorite tracks via Tidal.  I had also brought a burned CD containing many of the same tracks.  Cannot speak to specifics of the streamer setup but will say that both he and I thought the streaming while quite good was lower sound quality than the disc playback.

The version of the tracks on Tidal may not have been the same as on the CD.

[Apesbrain]

20 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Again, like myself, most are not interested in streaming via Roon, Tidal, etc.

 

Not sure if your intention, but Roon should not be thought of as the same as Tidal.  Roon is not an online streaming service; it is a music manager/server.  Similar function to JRiver, but more extensive library of information about content and it uses a proprietary protocol vs. DLNA.  If you have a Tidal subscription, it can be accessed via Roon.

 

https://roonlabs.com/

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-raat-architecture-and-protocol-vs-dlna-upnp-av/8542

[beerandmusic]

18 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

 

Interested parties, like myself, have  decades of CDs and SACDs that they would like to archive and and listen to conveniently.  Again, like myself, most are not interested in streaming via Roon, Tidal, etc.

 

If you don't want to stream via ROON, what program is it that you want to use, and why do you prefer it to ROON?

If you don't want to buy into either a subscription or $500 price, Jriver is cheap and can play over ethernet.

 

[Norton]

3 hours ago, davide256 said:

 

 

As to "80% of whats currently possible", how satisfied would one be with an eReader that got 20% of the text wrong? 

 

Not a valid analogy, unless you honestly believe that sub £1k HIFi  somehow gets 20% of the notes wrong...

[firedog]

4 hours ago, davide256 said:

I disagree on "veils rent", its not common but it happens

 

AR turntable vs the competition

NAD3020 vs the competition

Hafler DH200 vs the competition

Magnepan 1.7 vs the competition

Microzotl2 vs the competition

microRendu vs the competition

 

all products that have in their "weight class"  caused me some degree of jaw dropping, and pocketbook happiness.

 

As to "80% of whats currently possible", how satisfied would one be with an eReader that got 20% of the text wrong? So that statement is a little too coarse to pass muster. Its a given for the component price range below $1K that for most products the bass is going to be rolled off or very inaccurate, tone color will be weak or exaggerated or detail resolution will be weak. And that's ok for those who aren't hobbyists, for whom audio playback is just a background, not their passion. However if you are critical and a cheapskate about audio as I am, its very difficult to buy system components of audiophile quality for under $1K

Sorry, this post is exactly reflecting the snobby non appeal of most audiophillia. 

 

Audio equipment has a very large diminishing returns curve in terms of performance vs. price. Clearly, once you've fairly wisely spent around $2000 for an entire system, you pay lots of money for small improvements. (Hell, you can buy very good active speakers with a DAC built in for rmuch less than $2k that have true audiophile sound). For those large bumps up in cost, you mainly you get bass below 40-50 hz (which isn't even present on many recordings)  and the ability to play loud enough to fill a largeish or large size room.

 

I'm not dismissing those aspects (I paid lots of money to have both of them in my system), but clearly neither are absolutely necessary for very high quality of reproduction of most music in most domestic rooms. 

 

The reason most people (even those who like music and have money) think we are crazy is that we diss a fine sounding but somewhat modest system and insist that only our $5 or $20 K systems are any good. 

 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Norton said:

 

Not a valid analogy, unless you honestly believe that sub £1k HIFi  somehow gets 20% of the notes wrong...

+1

[BigGuy]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Myself and many others have experienced this as well....My reference system includes a marantz ud7007 and a few SACDs.

I haven't tried Tidal, but believe is FLAC?  Should be bested with native DSD over ethernet.

The main advantage to TIdal is the quantity (and better than typical mp3 streaming)...

 

I have found that native DSD over ethernet will best upsampled DSD.

 

In your testing, are you using the digital out of your transport to a DAC or the embedded DAC and analog out?

 

 

 

 

Yes, Tidal is FLAC which was bested by not even DSD but burned CD of  the same tracks played back from a Marantz player using digital output to a separate DAC.  As an aside, I am definitely in the camp of those who believe that memory playback via JRiver, Audirvana+, etc. is better than real time playback even using digital out from transport to DAC.

 

2 hours ago, mansr said:

The version of the tracks on Tidal may not have been the same as on the CD.

 

Yes, provenance is a major consideration in comparisons and I agree that this was not known for the tracks in question.

 

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

If you don't want to stream via ROON, what program is it that you want to use, and why do you prefer it to ROON?

If you don't want to buy into either a subscription or $500 price, Jriver is cheap and can play over ethernet.

 

 

Sorry, guess I misunderstood what Roon actually does.  Maybe I am incorrect but I like to think of "streaming" as playing music directly from an internet source as opposed to a local music server.

To answer your question, I use JRiver as my music manager and playback software.   Occasionally, I play SACDs with an Esoteric UX-3 universal player directly to my preamp.

 

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

If you don't want to stream via ROON, what program is it that you want to use, and why do you prefer it to ROON?

If you don't want to buy into either a subscription or $500 price, Jriver is cheap and can play over ethernet.

 

 

Of all those using digital music servers in our group, I would say 1/2 including myself use JRMC and the other 1/2  use Audirvana+...no one to my knowledge uses Roon.   IIRC at my age, Roon did not exist when many of us got started.

 

Back when I worked in Quality Assurance, we used to say that "cheap implies poor quality, inexpensive does not".

 

Per my definition, I do not stream and probably will not.  Were that to change, I would go hard-wired ethernet  rather than wireless. 

[beerandmusic]

30 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

 

Yes, Tidal is FLAC which was bested by not even DSD but burned CD of  the same tracks played back from a Marantz player using digital output to a separate DAC.  As an aside, I am definitely in the camp of those who believe that memory playback via JRiver, Audirvana+, etc. is better than real time playback even using digital out from transport to DAC.

 

 

Yes, provenance is a major consideration in comparisons and I agree that this was not known for the tracks in question.

 

 

Sorry, guess I misunderstood what Roon actually does.  Maybe I am incorrect but I like to think of "streaming" as playing music directly from an internet source as opposed to a local music server.

To answer your question, I use JRiver as my music manager and playback software.   Occasionally, I play SACDs with an Esoteric UX-3 universal player directly to my preamp.

 

 

Of all those using digital music servers in our group, I would say 1/2 including myself use JRMC and the other 1/2  use Audirvana+...no one to my knowledge uses Roon.   IIRC at my age, Roon did not exist when many of us got started.

 

Back when I worked in Quality Assurance, we used to say that "cheap implies poor quality, inexpensive does not".

 

Per my definition, I do not stream and probably will not.  Were that to change, I would go hard-wired ethernet  rather than wireless. 

 

When you say most are using jriver or apple....Probably most are using USB interface from a noisy pc.

You pretty much have 2 choices to upgrade your SQ....usb toys and cables or go ethernet...that is where ethernet has it's advantages.  You can use jriver and play via ethernet.  Ethernet is the direction many people are starting to lean towards....you will also find that will come closer to the quality you find playing from your "marantz player" or cd/sacd trasnport, if you aren't getting same from your pc.

 

 

 

 

[GUTB]

I also noticed the phenomena of Tidal hi-fi tracks of the same music I own as local copies (either burned from CD or purchased electronically) have distinctly less quality. Even though I thought Tidal Hi-Fi was  supposed to be lossless I heard from others that in fact they use a lossy compression scheme so that COULD be it. Also, I have no, zero, network noise isolation between my audio system and network router.

 

In regards to CD players vs computer audio, we know that PC USB audio sounds worse due to USB line noise. Now, dedicated streaming servers vs CD...my theory is that a CD player is inherently less noisy, and a higher end player will have a quality linear power supply, good filtering/regulation throughout, while suffering from significantly less self-noise generated by a streamer's CPUs, memory, controllers, etc.

 

Anyone who is serious about computer audio, and who doesn't want to drop large figures on a high-end streamer, has to take significant measures to clean up their computer source and develop a strong isolation strategy. Some go for isolation, some for isolation+cleaning. I'm going all in on a dedicated clean source to eliminate the need for isolation techniques; dedicated audio PC, completely fanless, powered from a linear ATX power supply, audiophile USB controller, SSD power filter, OS optimization (using Fidelizer Pro). In order to realize the highest possible playback quality on my Sabre-based DAC, my source PC has to have the power to run DSD512 up-sampling filters through HQPlayer which does add a layer of complexity and cost with this kind of strategy (ie, a little NUC or micro PC won't cut it). Roon is used for library management and remote control.

 

Here is a little tidbit of advanced knowledge for you friends:

 

Modern DS-style DAC chips (ie, Sabre - 9018,9028,9028, AKM -- 4490,4495,4497, Wolfson -- 7841, etc and so on) internally convert PCM into a high sample rate DSD stream through what is commonly referred to as SRC (Source Rate Conversion). The chips can do this themselves, or sometimes a seperate chip can do it prior to the DAC, it all depends on the implementation, but certainly in lower-priced products it'll always be done on the DAC chip itself. But those chips mentioned above also have the capability to skip the SRC stage altogether when they receive a DSD stream; this functionality is known as "native DSD", although this feature is rarely referred to as such in product literature if at all. By using HQPlayer, you can make use of advanced DSD upsampling filters to convert your normal PCM streams (Redbook CDs, hi-res downloads, etc) into  high-rate DSD (256 or 512 are the best) and then send the output into the DAC directly through the USB link (if it uses I2S over USB) or through an I2S link (typically over a normal Ethernet or HDMI cable) with the aid of a USB-to-I2S converter box. Doing so will result in a significant improvement all music, including regular Redbook CD rips. The reason is that the SRC stage is noisy and skipping it reduces the amount of self-noise by the DAC and the little chip in your DAC will never be able to compete with the quality of a PC's CPU which can run advanced upsampling filters.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

I also noticed the phenomena of Tidal hi-fi tracks of the same music I own as local copies (either burned from CD or purchased electronically) have distinctly less quality. Even though I thought Tidal Hi-Fi was  supposed to be lossless I heard from others that in fact they use a lossy compression scheme so that COULD be it. Also, I have no, zero, network noise isolation between my audio system and network router.

 

There are so many releases of albums, each have their own sound based on whatever factors were involved in production or remastering.  It's easy to identify physical copies, but less easy with Tidal.  Not impossible, but less easy.

 

You really need to compare apples to apples with digital sources.

 

https://www.discogs.com/

 

 

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

In regards to CD players vs computer audio, we know that PC USB audio sounds worse due to USB line noise. Now, dedicated streaming servers vs CD...my theory is that a CD player is inherently less noisy, and a higher end player will have a quality linear power supply, good filtering/regulation throughout, while suffering from significantly less self-noise generated by a streamer's CPUs, memory, controllers, etc.

 

This will be CD player dependent.  You could also stick a CD transport into your customized streaming server.  People will burn CDs on their custom noise reduced/filtered server for better quality copies.  The source of a rip is always going to be the master.  Whether you rip it at home or Tidal does it for you, it still comes from the same source.  I think a comparison of a CD player vs customized server and DAC is necessary.  Don't forget CD players contain DACs.  With a custom server you can tweak to your heart's content, often improving SQ.

 

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

Anyone who is serious about computer audio, and who doesn't want to drop large figures on a high-end streamer, has to take significant measures to clean up their computer source and develop a strong isolation strategy. Some go for isolation, some for isolation+cleaning. I'm going all in on a dedicated clean source to eliminate the need for isolation techniques; dedicated audio PC, completely fanless, powered from a linear ATX power supply, audiophile USB controller, SSD power filter, OS optimization (using Fidelizer Pro). In order to realize the highest possible playback quality on my Sabre-based DAC, my source PC has to have the power to run DSD512 up-sampling filters through HQPlayer which does add a layer of complexity and cost with this kind of strategy (ie, a little NUC or micro PC won't cut it). Roon is used for library management and remote control.

 

Just a suggestion to try Audiophile Optimizer in lieu of, or addition to Fidelizer.  I'd try AO first.  It has more under the hood from my experience.  Looking forward to hearing how your server turns out.

[davide256]

5 hours ago, Norton said:

 

Not a valid analogy, unless you honestly believe that sub £1k HIFi  somehow gets 20% of the notes wrong...

20% of the harmonic structure is probably a fair assessment ( gee, is that an oboe or an english horn?)

[Ralf11]

the most important thing for SQ is the speaker - some small $3k box is not going to give you audiophile sound

 

OTOH, a high-end vs. a decent amp or pre-amp will make a smaller difference