Which DACs or Renderers have external clock inputs?

[One and a half]

With reference clocks becoming a little more affordable these days, which DACs or Renderers have external inputs to make use of them?

 

So far the smallish list (not looking very hard perhaps) stems from the TEAC stable, Esoteric and 'consumer' UD / NT -50x.

 

sOTM have a USB reclocker, regenerative tx-USBultra.

 

Mutec, can accept external clock inputs, example MC-3+USB.

 

Any others to add to the (wish) list?

 

Is there a primer on how to use the clock inputs, mainly with regard to cabling, especially length on cables, terminators, tees, connecting a chain of devices? 

 

 

[plissken]

Why would you want to add the complexity of a black burst generator/time base corrector? With today's asynch systems we are much better off. The only time I have to do house clock now is live broadcast.

[ElviaCaprice]

3 hours ago, One and a half said:

sOTM have a USB reclocker, regenerative tx-USBultra.

 

SOtM, have several products that except the sCLK-EX clocking board, which in turn can have a reference input added for a master clock.  Also the sCLK-EX is versatile in that it can be used on in any situation to replace system clocks such as on a motherboard.  SOtM will do the modifications for you.  I consider the sCLK-EX as audiophile product of the year 2017. 

It's great to see all the new entrants into the master clock component arena.

[esldude]

Lots of pro recording ADC/DAC or mastering DACs have clock inputs.  They can clock off SPDIF, ADAT or Word clock input.  You need some care in how to connect and properly terminate the word clock cabling.  Some gear terminates the input internally some doesn't. 

 

I know it is falling on literally deaf ears, but I'll say it anyway.  You aren't going to get lower jitter from synching to an external clock no matter the quality of that external clock vs free running crystal clocking internally.  You can have free running clocks on your DAC via asynch USB or ethernet. Of course this will not change anyone's mind.  Believers gonna believe. 

 

Jitter has been an incredible gift to boutique digital audio.  It infects every cable, power supply, clock, DAC, reclocker you name it everyone imagines jitter is there.  A whole industry to combat this silent hidden enemy has grown up around a myth.  

 

Hopefully someone will take a $150 DAC, spend $500 on cabling and de-evilizers, and then spend $2000 on a clock, and live happily ever after.  Or until jitter's devilish effects and the delightful solution is found somewhere new.  

 

 

[austinpop]

Cybershaft have a list here: http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/platinum.html

 

Most are high end Esoteric, dCS, etc gear, but also includes the Teac UD/NT-503, M2Tech Evo. Interesting list.

 

Mutec has a similar list here: https://www.mutec-net.com/product_ref_10.php#description

[austinpop]

14 hours ago, One and a half said:

Is there a primer on how to use the clock inputs, mainly with regard to cabling, especially length on cables, terminators, tees, connecting a chain of devices? 

 

For what it’s worth: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=739319

 

[plissken]

3 hours ago, esldude said:

Lots of pro recording ADC/DAC or mastering DACs have clock inputs.  They can clock off SPDIF, ADAT or Word clock input.  You need some care in how to connect and properly terminate the word clock cabling.  Some gear terminates the input internally some doesn't. 

 

I know it is falling on literally deaf ears, but I'll say it anyway.  You aren't going to get lower jitter from synching to an external clock no matter the quality of that external clock vs free running crystal clocking internally.  You can have free running clocks on your DAC via asynch USB or ethernet. Of course this will not change anyone's mind.  Believers gonna believe. 

 

Jitter has been an incredible gift to boutique digital audio.  It infects every cable, power supply, clock, DAC, reclocker you name it everyone imagines jitter is there.  A whole industry to combat this silent hidden enemy has grown up around a myth.  

 

Hopefully someone will take a $150 DAC, spend $500 on cabling and de-evilizers, and then spend $2000 on a clock, and live happily ever after.  Or until jitter's devilish effects and the delightful solution is found somewhere new.  

 

 

Yep, you can only attempt to correct ignorance. External clocks are for live sound and video were equipment getting out of sync will cause a problem on the A/D or broadcast. 

 

I've had hands on racks of Sony D1 that were upwards of $2 million, Grass Valley, Pinnacle, Horita, etc...

 

And please call them by what they are. They aren't 'External Clocks'. They are Time Base Correctors (TBC). 

[mansr]

13 minutes ago, plissken said:

Yep, you can only attempt to correct ignorance.

As Schiller put it, "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."

[miguelito]

15 hours ago, One and a half said:

With reference clocks becoming a little more affordable these days, which DACs or Renderers have external inputs to make use of them?

 

dCS

[One and a half]

@plissken, @mansr, @esldude, all three you get an F (or a 5 so mansr can understand) for failing to answer the question at post 1.

 

You can either contribute by providing an answer to the question or not answer at all if you don't know or don't care. It's not the point of this thread to determine if reference clocks and DACs are a waste of time, sheer folly, I would have asked that question, but I didn't. 

Persist with crapping on this thread and the posts will be deleted, your choice.

[beerandmusic]

The first one i ever heard about 3-4 years ago at ces that made me fall in love with DSD

 

The antelope zodiac

They also have a lot of informative stuff on their site regarding external clocks.

 

[esldude]

49 minutes ago, One and a half said:

@plissken, @mansr, @esldude, all three you get an F (or a 5 so mansr can understand) for failing to answer the question at post 1.

 

You can either contribute by providing an answer to the question or not answer at all if you don't know or don't care. It's not the point of this thread to determine if reference clocks and DACs are a waste of time, sheer folly, I would have asked that question, but I didn't. 

Persist with crapping on this thread and the posts will be deleted, your choice.

I provided you with info directly pertinent to the question you posed by telling in what area to find gear that would accept the clock.  Some of that gear is unusually good for reasons having nothing to do with the clock.  Should have gotten at least a D for that much. 

 

I provided additional info directly pertinent to the question which didn't tell you what you wanted to hear.  You'll not get the results you are imagining because of a misunderstanding in how this works.  So now you want to delete that so you don't have to see it?  Sorry Snowflake.

[One and a half]

37 minutes ago, esldude said:

I provided you with info directly pertinent to the question you posed by telling in what area to find gear that would accept the clock.  Some of that gear is unusually good for reasons having nothing to do with the clock.  Should have gotten at least a D for that much. 

 

I provided additional info directly pertinent to the question which didn't tell you what you wanted to hear.  You'll not get the results you are imagining because of a misunderstanding in how this works.  So now you want to delete that so you don't have to see it?  Sorry Snowflake.

still not answering the question, what does it take.

[esldude]

The various Mytek Dacs including the Brooklyn +.

 

Burl B2 Bomber

https://burlaudio.com/products/b2-bomber-dac

 

 

Cary Dac 200TS

https://www.caryaudio.com/products/dac-200ts-digital-to-analog-converter/

 

 

 

 

[plissken]

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

still not answering the question, what does it take.

 

It takes someone to actually understand house sync and when you do and don't apply it.

[GUTB]

Clock quality ranking.

 

King:

1. Cesium Beam

2. Rubidium

 

Good:

3. OCXO

4. TCXO

 

Poor:

5. VCXO

 

Trash:

6. Non-XO timing schemes.

[mansr]

10 minutes ago, GUTB said:

King:

1. Cesium Beam

2. Rubidium

Do you realise that these are merely used to discipline a crystal oscillator? Their raw outputs have far too much jitter to be directly usable. If low jitter is your goal, you're actually better off with a plain OCXO. These can easily achieve frequency accuracy and stability several orders of magnitude in excess of what audio applications require.

[Ralf11]

How do you discipline a crystal oscillator?

 

Whips?

[semente]

41 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

How do you discipline a crystal oscillator?

 

Whips?

 

It's an audiophile thing, you need to be initiated.

[esldude]

50 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

How do you discipline a crystal oscillator?

 

Whips?

It appears some believe you do it with buzz words and money.  Then there are those who understand what is going on.

[Ralf11]

When the crystal's going wrong
You must whip it

oscillate it!

Now whip it
Into shape
Shape it up
Get straight
Go forward
Move ahead
Try to detect it
It's not too late
To whip it
Whip it good

[vortecjr]

 

On 11/16/2017 at 5:17 AM, One and a half said:

With reference clocks becoming a little more affordable these days, which DACs or Renderers have external inputs to make use of them?

 

So far the smallish list (not looking very hard perhaps) stems from the TEAC stable, Esoteric and 'consumer' UD / NT -50x.

 

sOTM have a USB reclocker, regenerative tx-USBultra.

 

Mutec, can accept external clock inputs, example MC-3+USB.

 

Any others to add to the (wish) list?

 

Is there a primer on how to use the clock inputs, mainly with regard to cabling, especially length on cables, terminators, tees, connecting a chain of devices? 

 

 

I'll try to stay on topic, but I'm tempted to pick a fight or two:)

 

One thing that is confusing is some of the clocks you discussed above do different things and it's probably best not to mix and match conversations about them in the same thread because it will just confuse people. For example, some of these use clocks to driver synthesizers, some use clocks to drive computer parts, and some use clocks for audio in your DAC. FYI None of these are at their best when delivered via cables and connectors across several devices.  

 

Anyway, his might not be exactly what you were looking for, but technically most DACs with i2s inputs via a RJ-45 connector accept an external master clock. Some DACs that have a LVDS i2s input via HDMI connector also accept external master clock, but most of these ignore the master clock. For example the PS Audio DS and the W4S both ignore the external master clock. My personal home made Buffalo DAC can work both ways, but currently it's using it's local clock as master.   

 

Here is a link to a data base I worked on a while ago:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h5PMUBkldkpt1rCnAR4ZHYGZNeCe-vwIFyKWYMZWsX0/edit#gid=0 

 

 

   

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, vortecjr said:

 

I'll try to stay on topic, but I'm tempted to pick a fight or two:)

 

One thing that is confusing is some of the clocks you discussed above do different things and it's probably best not to mix and match conversations about them in the same thread because it will just confuse people. For example, some of these use clocks to driver synthesizers, some use clocks to drive computer parts, and some use clocks for audio in your DAC. FYI None of these are at their best when delivered via cables and connectors across several devices.  

 

Anyway, his might not be exactly what you were looking for, but technically most DACs with i2s inputs via a RJ-45 connector accept an external master clock. Some DACs that have a LVDS i2s input via HDMI connector also accept external master clock, but most of these ignore the master clock. For example the PS Audio DS and the W4S both ignore the external master clock. My personal home made Buffalo DAC can work both ways, but currently it's using it's local clock as master.   

 

Here is a link to a data base I worked on a while ago:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h5PMUBkldkpt1rCnAR4ZHYGZNeCe-vwIFyKWYMZWsX0/edit#gid=0 

 

 

   

Thank you Jesus for this valuable information. Very briefly found an I2S chip from Cypress which had provision for a master clock, by looks of this a typical arrangement which is fine. Given the list on googledocs (another thanks) for i2S 'treatment' the clocking arrangements are a conformity of standards of sorts, and there's the problem. Bit of a dog's breakfast to pin outs, or the choice is to stick with one manufacturer so the protocol, connector and pinouts match for the time being. 

 

I'll let the sentence " FYI None of these are at their best when delivered via cables and connectors across several devices." fly through to the keeper for now, since several devices in a chain depend on what they do, and guarding against leakage currents is a paramount issue in that particular scheme.

[One and a half]

14 hours ago, esldude said:

The various Mytek Dacs including the Brooklyn +.

 

Burl B2 Bomber

https://burlaudio.com/products/b2-bomber-dac

 

 

Cary Dac 200TS

https://www.caryaudio.com/products/dac-200ts-digital-to-analog-converter/

 

 

 

 

Thank you, an 'A'.

[One and a half]

11 hours ago, plissken said:

 

It takes someone to actually understand house sync and when you do and don't apply it.

omg, you do?