Off the shelf fanless low power computers

[ElviaCaprice]

HDD's are far different from SSD's concerning electrical noise.  Although it would be nice to filter the SATA DATA connection, it isn't all that critical when using a 2.5" HDD, besides the point that a SATA III data filter doesn't exist, unless special ordered from SOtM.   So the data filter is a mute point, it doesn't commercially exist for SATA III drives.

Better if using a sCLK-EX server, I doubt you could tell the difference.  I can't, even between a dirty USB to a clean 2.5" 5V SATA. 

If really concerned about it, the best solution is a tXUSBexp pcie card modified with a sCLK-EX point, then you get reclocking and filtering.

[zackthedog]

15 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

HDD's are far different from SSD's concerning electrical noise.  Although it would be nice to filter the SATA DATA connection, it isn't all that critical when using a 2.5" HDD, besides the point that a SATA III data filter doesn't exist, unless special ordered from SOtM.   So the data filter is a mute point, it doesn't commercially exist for SATA III drives.

Better if using a sCLK-EX server, I doubt you could tell the difference.  I can't, even between a dirty USB to a clean 2.5" 5V SATA. 

If really concerned about it, the best solution is a tXUSBexp pcie card modified with a sCLK-EX point, then you get reclocking and filtering.

 

So you think that if the tx-USBexp card is used, that goes a long way to filtering out the noise?  I've considered getting the SOtM SATA filter for my SSD system drive (the storage drives are HDD).  I can also power the SSD separately from the HD Plex, but since I switched from Linux to Windows on my server, Windows will not boot from the SSD unless I power it from the motherboard.  Anyone have a clue about that?

[ElviaCaprice]

17 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

 

So you think that if the tx-USBexp card is used, that goes a long way to filtering out the noise?  I've considered getting the SOtM SATA filter for my SSD system drive (the storage drives are HDD).  I can also power the SSD separately from the HD Plex, but since I switched from Linux to Windows on my server, Windows will not boot from the SSD unless I power it from the motherboard.  Anyone have a clue about that?

Lee at SOtM said it's his best filtering component and he designed it.  Best you can power the tXUSBexp card with clean power which in turn with it's 5V output will power your HDD 2.5".  You just need an extra PCIe lane or mini Pcie with adapter to a PCIe lane.   Not sure if this will work for OS?  Hummm, well find out soon enough.

 

No clue why you can't?

I power a hard drive separately and connect it via SATA port for Windows 10, it's what I do.  Just make sure you power the OS HDD before booting up the PC.  I partitioned my 2.5" 5V 5TB HDD for OS and data.

[zackthedog]

4 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Lee at SOtM said it's his best filtering component and he designed it.  Best you can power the tXUSBexp card with clean power which in turn with it's 5V output will power your HDD 2.5".  You just need an extra PCIe lane or mini Pcie with adapter to a PCIe lane.   Not sure if this will work for OS?  Hummm, well find out soon enough.

 

No you can power a hard drive separately and connect it via SATA port for Windows 10, it's what I do.  Just make sure you power the OS HDD before booting up the PC.  I partitioned my 2.5" 5V 5TB HDD for OS and data.

 

Ah, interesting, thanks!  

[nbpf]

I have meanwhile compared an external HDD connected via a standard unfiltered USB enclosure 

(https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00KW4T69A/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)  against the same HDD connected via https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B005GNP72M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and powered by a 5V ifi PSU plugged into a separated mains spur. I cannot perceive any difference in sound quality. Best, nbpf

[ismewor]

1 hour ago, nbpf said:

I have meanwhile compared an external HDD connected via a standard unfiltered USB enclosure 

(https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00KW4T69A/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)  against the same HDD connected via https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B005GNP72M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and powered by a 5V ifi PSU plugged into a separated mains spur. I cannot perceive any difference in sound quality. Best, nbpf

You would be better compare it with net drive or access data even through other computer.

[R1200CL]

On 12.11.2017 at 4:39 PM, ElviaCaprice said:

It's all about building your own SOtM component server with the sCLK-EX

 

Can you give me an example of what this actually is ? 

Componet list, what need to be ordered, and how much must I expect to pay ?

Could such a PC be build around what http://atechfabrication.com/ product line ?

[GUTB]

4 hours ago, nbpf said:

I have meanwhile compared an external HDD connected via a standard unfiltered USB enclosure 

(https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00KW4T69A/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)  against the same HDD connected via https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B005GNP72M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and powered by a 5V ifi PSU plugged into a separated mains spur. I cannot perceive any difference in sound quality. Best, nbpf

 

You've taken some pains to clean up your power situation, although you have a pretty low end system so I'm not positive you'd notice much of a difference.

[ElviaCaprice]

6 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Can you give me an example of what this actually is ? 

Componet list, what need to be ordered, and how much must I expect to pay ?

Could such a PC be build around what http://atechfabrication.com/ product line ?

If it has a motherboard, it has clocks.  The sCLK-EX is a clocking board with a capability of replacing 4 different clocks.  Romaz (Roy) does a good job here of listing options.  But you can freely choose add ons as needed.  It's $850 plus 10 percent discount to activate all 4 clocks/points.  For extra $50 per clock, SOtM will modify any clock you want replaced.   I spent about $1300 for everything, mods, nuc used, txUSBexp pcie card used, and all 4 clocks, modification by SOtM, shipping, master clock input.  Power supplies will be another matter.

 

[GUTB]

26 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Can you give me an example of what this actually is ? 

Componet list, what need to be ordered, and how much must I expect to pay ?

Could such a PC be build around what http://atechfabrication.com/ product line ?

 

Those would work because they have the option to run filtered SSDs, but they are awfully expensive. These are much cheaper:

https://www.quietpcusa.com/Search.aspx?m=45

 

 

[nbpf]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

You've taken some pains to clean up your power situation, although you have a pretty low end system so I'm not positive you'd notice much of a difference.

That of course possible, let apart my bad hearing! What do you think could be the weakest link in my current system? Thanks, nbpf

[nbpf]

7 hours ago, ismewor said:

You would be better compare it with net drive or access data even through other computer.

I can try that out easily and will report back, thanks for the suggestion! 

[foodfiend]

15 hours ago, GUTB said:

Lol, everyone is just looking for excuses not to properly manage noise.

 

SSDs dump a huge amount of electrical noise into thier 5V power rail. It doesn’t matter if it’s the 5V USB line or the 5V SATA line — it’ll end up in the rest of your computer. You have to filter the noise, or get it off your audio circuit. In the case of a USB-powered external drive, you are powering the SSD off your computer’s 5V rail and so you’ve accomplished nothing. If the drive is externally powered, the SSD noise is being dumped into the same circuit as your PC and other audio equipment — even if you do the right thing and keep your non-audio gear off the audio circuit or use a mains filter, the dirty power of the external enclosure is still going to get into your computer via the USB line.

 

SSD noise can’t be allowed to get into your PC, and you don’t want it on the audio circuit at all.

 

Some people use mains conditioners or regenerating AC supplies to make sure clean power components are secure from noisy ones on the same circuit. Another valid way is to run your audio gear from another room’s unused circuit. There’s medical-grade isolation transformers.

That is why there have been patents and applications on controlling electrical noise from SSDs: US 9553483 B2 (for Toshiba) and JP2012016139A and CN102315762A and TW201230605A (for Buffalo/Melco). This is how some companies claim to have audio-optimised SSDs.

[nbpf]

8 minutes ago, foodfiend said:

That is why there have been patents and applications on controlling electrical noise from SSDs: US 9553483 B2 (for Toshiba) and JP2012016139A and CN102315762A and TW201230605A (for Buffalo/Melco). This is how some companies claim to have audio-optimised SSDs.

Interesting but, if the OS can be kept on a microSD card, there is actually no need to use SSDs for data storage. Am I missing something?

[Miska]

1 hour ago, nbpf said:

Interesting but, if the OS can be kept on a microSD card, there is actually no need to use SSDs for data storage. Am I missing something?

 

Regardless of the storage, OS can be small enough to entirely fit in RAM and the SSD/microSD/USB-flash can power down.

 

I have not seen any problems when using M.2 SSD for OS on my Linux-based computers. My smaller ARM-based NAA's boot from microSD.

 

I prefer to keep media on a network share and access content through gigabit ethernet from SMB share.

 

[Miska]

On 11/12/2017 at 3:54 PM, nbpf said:

When it comes to off the shelf computers for running dedicated music servers, players or integrated server + renderer solutions, many users appear to opt for a mac mini. Mac minis are relatively power hungry, come with an electrically noisy internal fan and are rather expensive. Is there a particular reason to prefer mac minis to fanless, low-power devices like those of the Fitlet ranges (https://www.tinygreenpc.com/computers/fitlet.html, https://www.tinygreenpc.com/fitlet2-unique-intel-apollo-lake-micro-pc-for-iot), NUC devices or, for even lower power, Raspberry Pi devices?  

 

This is COTS computer I've been using:

https://www.logicsupply.com/eu-en/products/industrial-computers/cl100-series/

 

For more processing power, there's:

https://www.logicsupply.com/eu-en/products/industrial-computers/ml600-series/

 

[jriver]

On 11/12/2017 at 9:53 PM, nbpf said:

@zackthedog, @GUTB Thanks for the links! I am mainly interested in low-power fanless devices and do not need/want Roon or HQPlayer. My current server+renderer is a fitPC3 (https://www.tinygreenpc.com/computers/fit-pc/fit-pc3-3i.html). It is rated at 6.5W TDP and is powered by a Teddy Pardo PSU. I would be happy with a similar mobo, ideally with the possibility of booting from a microSD card. The Streacom cases look very nice but seem to be designed for far more power-hungry motherboards. What is the advantage of a DIY solution in the 6W TDP power range if one does not add the sCLK-EX board? 

We have a line of low power media devices:

https://jriver.com/Id/

 

The IdPi is a bootable microSD card for the Raspberry Pi.

 

With a HiFiBerry Amp2, you can just about make the equipment between the media and the speaker disappear.

 

It's about 4 watts on standby and 20 watts playing to bookshelf speakers.

[plissken]

Just did a J3455 Intel NUC $129, 8GB RAM $62, 120GB SSD $45, 8TB WD Personal Cloud NAS for $299, JRiver (they didn't like the subscription model with ROON) and JRiver Remote is great for them. 

 

Everything is over SMB. All audio is Flac'd and DVD's are transcoded to H.264 and MKV'd. HDMI out to their AVR.

 

Great ultra small form factor computer. 

 

 

[nbpf]

3 hours ago, jriver said:

...

 

With a HiFiBerry Amp2, you can just about make the equipment between the media and the speaker disappear.

 

...

Thanks, interesting but ... why would I want to do so? For the time being I prefer the Naim DAC and the SN2 not to disappear!

[nbpf]

22 hours ago, ismewor said:

You would be better compare it with net drive or access data even through other computer.

I have compared 1) streaming over wireless from a Raspberry Pi connected to my router and with music collection on externally powered HDD, 2) streaming from a local music collection (either on the internal SSD of the fitpc3 or on an external USB HDD) and I cannot hear any differences. I do not find this particularly surprising: in both cases the data are buffered in RAM and then sent to the nDAC (via the USB to SPDIF bridge) using the same protocol and under very similar conditions. Why should they sound differently?