MQA Off-Topic Spinoff

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

Being intelligent and understanding how records are made, are discrete.  I don't see a lot of understanding here.

 

Sorry to YELL yet YOU ALL SEEM DEAF TO THE REALITY.  Maybe it's a matter of ignorance, so I am sharing.

 

DR as a number on an island means nothing.  Those measuring have no idea what is going on in the production team. We are given a set of mixes.  The artist signs off.  The article describes my aims, and Neil agrees.

 

DR as a main priority in mastering is not correct.  It's a factor, yet a record that moves air can measure with less dynamics than a flat sounding one.  Listen, don't measure.  That is #1.

 

My work is always more punchy than the mixes, always.  Even when it's louder.  How is this possible?  Transients = emotion not just overall DR.  

 

I will simply push if asked, until it breaks, to my taste.  Which is obviously shared by many.

When I try to send dynamic work ... it is rejected ... 99% of the time.   1 in 100 or 200 asks for a more dynamic record.

 

 

You’re projecting a reality that doesn’t exist. In your mind nobody here understands anything and nobody listens to you. We are all deaf to the reality in your world. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

 

We we are a bunch of people who love music, great sound, and information. 

 

if you don’t see a lot of understanding here, feel free to help people rather than project some strange reality on a large group of people. 2 million people will visit The site this year. Not sure you should pigeon hole every one based on the comments of one or two.

 

Of course DR numbers by themselves mean nothing. I don’t see anyone here that would disagree. Just like your Model 2 by itself means nothing. It’s capable of great sound in the right hands. DR in the right situation can make something really great.  

 

I haven’t seen anyone say “DR [is] a main priority in mastering.” Your putting words in people’s mouths, projecting. 

 

You'd probably have many fans here if you’d take everyone seriously and as individuals, without projecting some weird audiophile stereotype on us. 

 

We all understand the company paying the bills has the final say with respect to the sound of a record. If they didn’t they’d move on to the next engineer. 

 

We like dynamic range. That’s not a bad thing. We own many versions of the same recordings, all with different DR values. For the most part, those with higher DR sound better. We love music. Better sounding recordings help us love music even more. We feel closer to the artist. When Miles Davis, Jack Johnson, or Eddie Vedder sound like they are in our rooms, it’s an amazing experience. 

 

 

[Brian Lucey]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 I love hearing real instruments sound like real instruments. Drums sound like drums rather than sticks hitting paper. 

 

Your taste is stuck in time

 

We are "old" when we are stuck.

 

That's sad.

 

I like all eras of music.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, Fair Hedon said:

It is rather presumptuous to tell current bands like Cage The Elephant, Ray Lamontagne, The Black Keys, and hundreds  of others that their records should sound like Led Zeppelin II or Hotel California.

I’d never tell that to anyone. 

[Brian Lucey]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

I haven’t seen anyone say “DR [is] a main priority in mastering.” Your putting words in people’s mouths, projecting. 

 

You'd probably have many fans here if you’d take everyone seriously and as individuals, without projecting some weird audiophile stereotype on us. 

 

We all understand the company paying the bills has the final say with respect to the sound of a record. If they didn’t they’d move on to the next engineer. 

 

We like dynamic range. That’s not a bad thing. We own many versions of the same recordings, all with different DR values. For the most part, those with higher DR sound better. We love music. Better sounding recordings help us love music even more. We feel closer to the artist. When Miles Davis, Jack Johnson, or Eddie Vedder sound like they are in our rooms, it’s an amazing experience. 

 

 

 

Someone was spouting DR numbers as if that was a common thing ere, and I didn't see a lot of countering him.  So I did.  Stop measuring.  It's just dumb.

 

Modern music is DISTORTED and NOT DYNAMIC.  Sorry, had to yell.   Seems so obvious.

 

Having said that, it can sound great.  My records sound great.  Defined as the best positive compromise of all parties in the process.

 

If you need more dynamics, listen to older records. 

 

I don't smash like a Vlado Meller and some others, and my loud records move air which is key to emotion, not DR.    I am happy with that middle ground.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said:

 

Your taste is stuck in time

 

You are old.

 

That's sad.

 

I like all eras of music.

I’m 41. Your ageism is pretty sad. I have a preference for real sounding instruments. That’s got nothing to do with age. 

 

I’ve had the new Taylor Swift on repeat for days. I love it. Gaga’s Joanne record is amazing, can’t stop listening. Big fan of Nicki Minaj and Kendrick Lamar. Earlier today I was listening to Billie Holliday and reading as much as I could about her life. Being at Capitol Studios a few weeks ago was an amazing experience because Nat King Cole is one of my all time favorites. 

 

Pigeon holing me only shows your ignorance Brian. 

[Fair Hedon]

18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’d never tell that to anyone. 

Understood. From your posts I am aware you do listen to a lot of modern music, which is great.

 

I come across too many audiophiles who have not bought a single album released after 1985 and time does not stand still. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Fair Hedon said:

Understood. From your posts I am aware you do listen to a lot of modern music, which is great.

 

I come across to many audiophiles who have not bought a single album released after 1985 and time does not stand still. 

I try to consume as much music as possible. Music makes me feel good. I expose my 5 year old daughter to everything from 1940 to today. 

 

On on the way to the store this evening she was singing The Killers newish track The Man. We love that song. Great stuff. 

 

 

 

[Fair Hedon]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I try to consume as much music as possible. Music makes me feel good. I expose my 5 year old daughter to everything from 1940 to today. 

 

On on the way to the store this evening she was singing The Killers newish track The Man. We love that song. Great stuff. 

 

 

 

Nice!!! They and their contemporaries...Interpol, Editors, Keane, etc forged a new sonic path, and it either get on board or stick to Dark Side Of The Moon...hah....

[lucretius]

12 minutes ago, Fair Hedon said:

Nice!!! They and their contemporaries...Interpol, Editors, Keane, etc forged a new sonic path, and it either get on board or stick to Dark Side Of The Moon...hah....

 

I'll stick to the latter!

[Rt66indierock]

52 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said:

 

Your taste is stuck in time

 

We are "old" when we are stuck.

 

That's sad.

 

I like all eras of music.

 

There are times on this thread when I need to cleanse my soul and this one of them. I'm going put the top down, turn up the volume on Live at a Flamingo Hotel and drive home in a  beautiful Phoenix evening. That ought to do it.

[Mordikai]

What is the "move air" thing Mr Lucey keeps mentioning? I'm not being a smart- alec. 

[Brian Lucey]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m 41. Your ageism is pretty sad. I have a preference for real sounding instruments. That’s got nothing to do with age. 

 

I’ve had the new Taylor Swift on repeat for days. I love it. Gaga’s Joanne record is amazing, can’t stop listening. Big fan of Nicki Minaj and Kendrick Lamar. Earlier today I was listening to Billie Holliday and reading as much as I could about her life. Being at Capitol Studios a few weeks ago was an amazing experience because Nat King Cole is one of my all time favorites. 

 

Pigeon holing me only shows your ignorance Brian. 

 

Look brother, you started this with your dynamic range elitism, now you listen to modern music that's at -5? 

 

I won't reply to you further.  You are talking in circles just to win an argument.

 

 

 

[Brian Lucey]

2 hours ago, Mordikai said:

What is the "move air" thing Mr Lucey keeps mentioning? I'm not being a smart- alec. 

 

 

If drivers, specifically larger low end drivers, "move air" then the kick and bass are not overly smashed.   This is not about the overall dynamic range ... it's more about the way the instruments maintain transients at any level of limiting or compression.  Louder records with less dynamic range can actually have more punch, if you do it right. 

[kumakuma]

Deleted

[mansr]

Stop it already. This bickering is distracting from the real conversation. Brian delivers what his clients desire, as should any professional. If you happen to not share those tastes, then don't listen to that music. Now get back to exterminating MQA.

[mav52]

I like this little spurt of information from veteran engineer of Universal Mastering Studios West, Pete Doell on Dynamic range.

 

" This is probably one of the most discussed topics in modern music mixing circles. Over the past decade or so, the quest for radio airplay has created a battle for attention that has manifested itself in loudness – the perception being that louder the track, the more it will grab the listener. It’s a mentality that started with TV and radio advertisers (notice how a loud commercial gets your attention) and is a direct result of today’s vastly improved compressor technology, which has enabled us to create “radio mixes” where everything is loud, punchy and in your face.

The problem with pumping up the apparent volume on your mix this way is that it works by compressing the dynamic range of your tracks. Dynamic range is defined as the difference between the loudest and softest sounds in your track. Ideally, the tracks you deliver to the mastering house should have peaks of around –3 dB for the loudest material (for example, a snare hit), while the rest of the track should average in the –6 dB to –8 dB area. That would give your peaks somewhere around 3dB to 5dB of dynamic range.

The problem with compressing dynamic range (or, equally hazardous, normalizing a track’s relative volume), is that you effectively rob your mastering engineer of the resources to do their job. A good mastering engineer applies meticulous use of multiband compression – bringing up the punch and presence of the bass, adding clarity and sparkle to the high end – all by using different compression algorithms for different spectral bands.

Many inexperienced mixers will apply a “mastering compressor” plug-in, using a preset that creates a loud but muddy low-end, a bright and aggressive high-end, and little room for the mastering engineer to add — or de-emphasize — anything.

“Sometimes clients desire a ‘loud’ mix, but they have done little or nothing to control the dynamics of their mixes,” says Doell. “I like the analogy of getting a super sexy paint job for your car — asking the mastering engineer to do the entire job with one ‘coat of paint’ is not the smartest move. Layering the limiting (by compressing the vocal, bass, snare, for example) will allow a MUCH more gorgeous detailed, deep shine on the final product!”

https://www.uaudio.com/blog/studio-basics-mastering-mistakes/

 

Doell's credits https://www.allmusic.com/artist/peter-doell-mn0000267230/credits

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

 

Look brother, you started this with your dynamic range elitism, now you listen to modern music that's at -5? 

 

I won't reply to you further.  You are talking in circles just to win an argument.

 

 

 

You sound like a politician using your own facts in the face of the real facts of our discussion right above your very post. 

 

Nobody here is a DR elitist. We like DR when we can get it. We ask questions about why more records don’t have it. That doesn’t make us anything but people with preferences and interested in more information about how records are made. 

 

 

[firedog]

12 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

 

Your taste is stuck in time

 

We are "old" when we are stuck.

 

That's sad.

 

I like all eras of music.

Brian-

I don't expect hip-hop to be mixed and mastered like Jazz or even Rock from the 60's.

 

I do find it sad when an artist like Paul Simon releases an album that is so volume compressed that it is difficult to listen to all the way through and has the subtlety compressed out of the music. He IS using real instruments, even acoustic ones.

It makes no sense to "make everything equally and very loud" in that kind of music. The listener ends up not hearing subtleties that surely at one point were part of the artistic idea of the music.

 

So making the record very loud comes from insecurity, or some idea that the record must sound "modern"? If so I guess that is why modern remasters of older music are also remastered that way. But that modern sound comes at the cost of obscuring some of the information/artistic intent of the artist at the time the record was made. 

[synn]

I am not knowledgeable enough to contribute to this current discussion but I do have a question:

 

Why aren't records mastered twice: i.e. One LOUD version for the casual streaming/ radio type uses and a dynamic version for sale in lossless physical and digital formats? Is it just a cost/ effort thing?

 

 

[firedog]

3 minutes ago, synn said:

I am not knowledgeable enough to contribute to this current discussion but I do have a question:

 

Why aren't records mastered twice: i.e. One LOUD version for the casual streaming/ radio type uses and a dynamic version for sale in lossless physical and digital formats? Is it just a cost/ effort thing?

 

 

I'm sure it is economics. Cut costs where ever possible.

It is an even more glaring issue when we get an "audiophile" hi-res release that has the same DR as the mp3. In other words, the hi-res master was already volume compressed, and the Redbook and mp3 were just downsampled.

Why not leave the hi-res without all the volume compression, and volume compress the lesser formats if we think the marketplace demands it?

Of course, according to Brian, the VC is often done in the mix, so that means the hi-res master is already Volume compressed at the mix, and the dynamics are gone forever. 

[JoeWhip]

Probably because the market for audiophiles is so small that it is just not worth it to the record companies. I have cut down on my purchases of high res files because of the compression and loudness. The artists want their recordings loud in the pop world no doubt about it. If the loudness isn’t there the tracks get lost on services like Spotify. I know from experience. I see it even in jazz the new John Pizzarelli release coming to mind. Loud all the time, Bossa Nova to boot. Totally misses the point. I would love to see new pop and rock given audiophile mastering. Not going to happen  though. SAD.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[synn]

I don't mind the compression in certain genres. For example in heavy metal or types of music that I play in the background as I work on something.

 

But I do mind it for tracks I want to sit down and listen to. Tracks that I know could sound so much more organic if they were not compressed heavily. Lindsey Stirling's albums are a good example. She is phenomenally talented and the music sounds great from a musicality perspective, but I know from listening to enough high res classical music that her violin could sound a lot more organic if the "Audiophile" versions of her tracks were available. I have purchased a CD,and listened to the same tracks on Spotify and there's not much to choose from them. High res downloads are not available (Onkyomusic and Qobuz both sell only 44.1, 16 bit), so I suspect the high res master is already compressed.

It is a sad thing, but something we just have to live with I suppose.

[#Yoda#]

23 minutes ago, synn said:

But I do mind it for tracks I want to sit down and listen to. Tracks that I know could sound so much more organic if they were not compressed heavily. Lindsey Stirling's albums are a good example. She is phenomenally talented and the music sounds great from a musicality perspective, but I know from listening to enough high res classical music that her violin could sound a lot more organic if the "Audiophile" versions of her tracks were available. I have purchased a CD,and listened to the same tracks on Spotify and there's not much to choose from them. High res downloads are not available (Onkyomusic and Qobuz both sell only 44.1, 16 bit), so I suspect the high res master is already compressed.

 

Lindsey Stirling - Warmer In The Winter is available as 24/48 in Europe at Qobuz and HDtracks. ?

[PeterSt]

8 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

If drivers, specifically larger low end drivers, "move air" then the kick and bass are not overly smashed.   This is not about the overall dynamic range ... it's more about the way the instruments maintain transients at any level of limiting or compression.  Louder records with less dynamic range can actually have more punch, if you do it right.

 

I understand this fully. And with the notice that it was my complaint (a couple of pages back) that Crime of The Century has a too high DR, I could tell Chris @The Computer Audiophile that it is exactly that one where drums (kick drum ahead) sound like paper. Odd eh ...

 

But @Brian Lucey, the sort of mistake you may make here (it would be a thinking mistake) is that where higher dynamics will overdrive the (bass) driver and only imply distortion instead of pushed air, this is a fault in the loudspeaker of concern; It is not fast enough.

Now of course you could try to tell us that 99% of even audiophiles don't use fast enough drivers, but that would be a bit of BS IMHO because with a solution like yours we don't even have the opportunity to fix it.

Your solution implies woolly bass, if that would be an English term for the opposite of taut.

 

I'd agree that for many a "slow down" solution could work out for the better, but once you start referring to the smash board top 100 ...

No. And never.

 

Peter

 

 

[synn]

2 minutes ago, #Yoda# said:

 

Lindsey Stirling - Warmer In The Winter is available as 24/48 in Europe at Qobuz and HDtracks. ?

NIce.

I am in Europe, I will check it out. Not sure if it will be mastered any differently from what I heard on Spotify though.

 

I looked high and low for high res versions of her older albums. No luck.