Abtr Posted November 7, 2017 Author Share Posted November 7, 2017 10 hours ago, Brian Lucey said: ... These are VERY loud records, to be sure. They are also loved by both artists, both labels ... and both are Billboard #1s. When you do 200 records a year there is no time to be an a$$hole or a snob, it's a service job and we can only make dynamic records when that is what the client wants. Tell me, what do you do for a living? Do you ignore your clients or do you serve them? Hi Brian. My apologies if I offended you. The dynamic range of your masterings says nothing about your capability to detect euphonics and harmonic distortion in MQA. I see you use tube amps.. Regarding some of your work, Lucinda williams: Sweet old world has DR11, which is fine, but that was 1992. Ray Lamontagne: Supernova has DR6 in 2014, and Cage The Elephant: Tell me I'm pretty, has DR5! (2015). These last two albums are unlistenable to me. They shout at me, it hurts my ears. Quite the opposite of what you call: "enhancing the connection between artist and audience." So you say that you as mastering engineer are not responsible for excessive compression and that this is done in the mixing stage. Does this mean you have to work with material that is already severely dynamically compressed? That must be horrible. I don't think I could do it and probably would refuse the job. Luckily I only have to keep my boss happy and as a programmer I fully control how to make software user friendly. MrMoM 1 Current audio system Link to comment
Abtr Posted November 7, 2017 Author Share Posted November 7, 2017 1 hour ago, PeterSt said: ... b) you don't like the dynamical range Now what ? (challenge) There is a version of Crime Of The Century (MFSL 1987) that has on average DR16, which may be a bit too much of a good thing. Are you perhaps referring to that release? (Other releases have DR13 or DR9.) PeterSt 1 Current audio system Link to comment
PeterSt Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Abtr said: 2 hours ago, PeterSt said: ... b) you don't like the dynamical range Now what ? (challenge) There is a version of Crime Of The Century (MFSL 1987) that has on average DR16, which may be a bit too much of a good thing. Are you perhaps referring to that release? (Other releases have DR13 or DR9.) Very correct ! (but you were a little bit pre-informed ) Notice that the MFSL could be a little bit faked (pumped up somehow) as the "original" (I have) carries about 2/3 of the maximum digital headroom while the MFSL utilizes 100% of it. But have the same average "SPL", so the MFSL is even more dynamic and with that unlistenable. I am serious. You can't play this album at any level where you "hear something" without exploding a few minutes later from the loudness. It is the one and seriously only album which IMO completely failed on CD, especially because it is one of the top albums ever (again IMO of course). All of the others fail to because you can hear they did something to it to make it right, which includes the MQA version which could be one of the better (but still not right). Thank you Abtr. PS: I should add to this that my "system" doesn't help with this because it is highly dynamical itself (like 118dB sensitive horns with thus "super speed" might it tell something to someone). It is the only album my wife time after time complains about, never mind I play it only once per 6 months or so and never mind I each time start out with it more softly. It is just the sudden difference in level which startles (in each of the tracks). Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Abtr said: Hi Brian. My apologies if I offended you. The dynamic range of your masterings says nothing about your capability to detect euphonics and harmonic distortion in MQA. I see you use tube amps.. Regarding some of your work, Lucinda williams: Sweet old world has DR11, which is fine, but that was 1992. Ray Lamontagne: Supernova has DR6 in 2014, and Cage The Elephant: Tell me I'm pretty, has DR5! (2015). These last two albums are unlistenable to me. They shout at me, it hurts my ears. Quite the opposite of what you call: "enhancing the connection between artist and audience." So you say that you as mastering engineer are not responsible for excessive compression and that this is done in the mixing stage. Does this mean you have to work with material that is already severely dynamically compressed? That must be horrible. I don't think I could do it and probably would refuse the job. Luckily I only have to keep my boss happy and as a programmer I fully control how to make software user friendly. User friendly software = easier to use = encouraging laziness right? lol I am never offended by a stranger, especially an insulting audiophile. Yes the mixes are compressed and no you couldn't do anything I do. I serve music and artists and production teams, it's not a Kingdom of Power. Neil Young has replied to my post that you dismissed, in the positive, and yes that is him. Maybe he can persuade you to show respect. P.S. DR=nothing to me. I'm sure your system sounds great FOR YOU and is set up to be favorable FOR YOUR STYLES of production. That is not a standard for all, however. There is no perfection only connection. If you are not connecting with modern music that is not the fault of one party, it's just a bad marriage, move on. P.S. Lucinda was just released, I did her last two records. They are as dynamic as modern pop music gets. Sweet Old World was rerecorded from scratch. Maybe you will like that one. Or try Chet Faker - 'Built on Glass' it has some loud bits yet a ton of range for modern music. MikeyFresh 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Brian Lucey Posted November 7, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, beetlemania said: Yes, I didn't use the sarcasm font 'cuz I thought it was plainly silly. I mostly agree . . . if there's a 24-bit file of the same master I find a small but worthwhile sonic difference compared to CD resolution - not so much "more information" but "more relaxed and musical". Thanks for stopping by. Many insiders end up getting flamed around here (and on other fora) and quit visiting after too much abuse . . . Best wishes. I have thick skin, thanks though Yes 24 is better than 16 ... yet very system dependent. People with gear and ears can hear it of course. We need to sell the 24 bit files at the native rate and call it a day. So simple and so difficult. People who do not make music put their "creativity" into other places in their psyche that are less benevolent. Manipulation and/or Force of Will most often result. When multiple rates are sold of the same master, we get into PREFERENCE. This makes the audiophile invest not only in the playback system as a form of creativity, yet also in the results of each format ... this last step is unreal and unhealthy. The definitive master exists. Always. And if we are not ABing the ACTUAL MASTER to the OTHER format, we CANNOT say anything definitive, ever ... nothing except I like it, or I don't like it. More personal investment and pseudo creativity. P.S. MQAs harmonic distortion and slight brightess are two very old tricks to make people "like" something subjectively. beetlemania, esldude and MikeyFresh 2 1 Link to comment
Shadders Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 39 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: HF details are not the prime currency of music, they are only one form of ear candy in a cocktail of musicality. Hi, Is it me, or does anyone else have the vision of the Spitting Image character for Mick Jagger, smoking something dubious, inhaling, and saying the line above as he exhales.... man. Regards, Shadders. Link to comment
#Yoda# Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 34 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: When multiple rates are sold of the same master, we get into PREFERENCE. This makes the audiophile invest not only in the playback system as a form of creativity, yet also in the results of each format ... this last step is unreal and unhealthy. The definitive master exists. Always. And if we are not ABing the ACTUAL MASTER to the OTHER format, we CANNOT say anything definitive, ever ... nothing except I like it, or I don't like it. More personal investment and pseudo creativity. P.S. MQAs harmonic distortion and slight brightess are two very old tricks to make people "like" something subjectively. Unfortunately, the labels usually withhold the "definitive master" to their and the artists customers because of comprehensible commercial reasons. Today, the vast majority of new "HiRes" albums are published only in 24/44.1 or /48 and not in the original master resolution. Maybe, we will see this masterings as MQA "deflection" to support this unfortunate fraud. Link to comment
beetlemania Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Brian Lucey said: We need to sell the 24 bit files at the native rate and call it a day. Well, you've got my vote for King of the Music Industry. 1 hour ago, Brian Lucey said: MQAs harmonic distortion and slight brightess are two very old tricks to make people "like" something subjectively. It appears to be working on much of the audiophile media. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
beetlemania Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 49 minutes ago, labjr said: There's a lot of crap being sold over and over again. I'll probably buy Sargent Peppers for the 5th or 6th time, at least it's not crap Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
labjr Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 12 minutes ago, beetlemania said: I'll probably buy Sargent Peppers for the 5th or 6th time, at least it's not crap I'm not talking about the content. But rather the mastering job or digital transfer. There's a lot of great albums which are not done justice in the transfer to digital formats. I think Sgt Pepper is about as good as it gets. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted November 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2017 20 hours ago, Brian Lucey said: P.S. DR=nothing to me. That's really too bad. Removing dynamic range can make a recording sound nothing like the artist and recording engineers heard in the studio. Lack of DR can make all the time spent on perfecting one's sound, worthless. I hope DR stills means something to the front of house engineers. I can't imagine going to a concert that sounded as bad as some records. Teresa, Abtr and Pure Vinyl Club 1 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Abtr Posted November 8, 2017 Author Share Posted November 8, 2017 22 hours ago, Brian Lucey said: User friendly software = easier to use = encouraging laziness right? lol I am never offended by a stranger, especially an insulting audiophile. Yes the mixes are compressed and no you couldn't do anything I do. I serve music and artists and production teams, it's not a Kingdom of Power. Neil Young has replied to my post that you dismissed, in the positive, and yes that is him. Maybe he can persuade you to show respect. P.S. DR=nothing to me. I'm sure your system sounds great FOR YOU and is set up to be favorable FOR YOUR STYLES of production. That is not a standard for all, however. There is no perfection only connection. If you are not connecting with modern music that is not the fault of one party, it's just a bad marriage, move on. P.S. Lucinda was just released, I did her last two records. They are as dynamic as modern pop music gets. Sweet Old World was rerecorded from scratch. Maybe you will like that one. Or try Chet Faker - 'Built on Glass' it has some loud bits yet a ton of range for modern music. Well, I generally like to relax a bit when I listen to music. A DR below 7 or 6 makes that impossible. Everything shouts equally for attention and nothing is subtle, even if the music genre is laid-back. I cannot 'connect' with a flat wall of sound, and somehow low DR impairs SQ. Neil Young seems to understand this. His albums all have decent DR and sound good to me. I do respect you and your work. I believe you're doing the best you can with the material you have to work with. But why insist that DR = meaningless? I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. (Overly) compressed music simply isn't as interesting and involving as less compressed music, and that is *not* an artefact of my audio system.. Current audio system Link to comment
Shadders Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 29 minutes ago, Abtr said: Well, I generally like to relax a bit when I listen to music. A DR below 7 or 6 makes that impossible. Everything shouts equally for attention and nothing is subtle, even if the music genre is laid-back. I cannot 'connect' with a flat wall of sound, and somehow low DR impairs SQ. Neil Young seems to understand this. His albums all have decent DR and sound good to me. I do respect you and your work. I believe you're doing the best you can with the material you have to work with. But why insist that DR = meaningless? I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. (Overly) compressed music simply isn't as interesting and involving as less compressed music, and that is *not* an artefact of my audio system.. Hi, I suppose there is a limit. A DR = 1 to 3 will sound rather poor. I checked the database and some albums that sound very good - vocals clear and precise etc, have a DR on average of 6 to 8. I agree with the wall of sound statement - i have some albums like that - no realistic distinction between instruments. Regards, Shadders. Link to comment
Fair Hedon Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: That's really too bad. Removing dynamic range can make a recording sound nothing like the artist and recording engineers heard in the studio. Lack of DR can make all the time spent on perfecting one's sound, worthless. I hope DR stills means something to the front of house engineers. I can't imagine going to a concert that sounded as bad as some records. But you do understand that Brian and other mastering engineers receive mixes that already have lowish DR..and that IS what the artist intended. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, Fair Hedon said: But you do understand that Brian and other mastering engineers receive mixes that already have lowish DR..and that IS what the artist intended. I understand that completely, notice the difference between what the artist heard in the studio (my words) and what the artist intended (your words). Dr is an artistic decision, as is the selection of microphone and guitar. However, when someone says DR = nothing to me, that's very concerning. I'd love to know if artists had to listen to their own dynamically compressed music every night on the road if they'd think twice about it. If they still like it, maybe they need to get instruments and microphones with far less dynamic range, to reduce what is necessary in the DAW. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post labjr Posted November 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2017 When new re-masters have a large reduction in dynamic range compared to older masters or the same albums, how is this what the artist intended? Teresa and esldude 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Brian Lucey Posted November 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2017 28 minutes ago, labjr said: When new re-masters have a large reduction in dynamic range compared to older masters or the same albums, how is this what the artist intended? That is a different topic. Remastering is often done by the label for $. Not approved by the artist. However even when the artist is involved they might want it loud. Why is that? BECAUSE THEY ARE INSECURE. No matter who they are, when it's time to release the baby into the teeth of the world, most artists are insecure about being too old, too quiet, not cool, too this or too that ... basically ... fear of being IGNORED. And they are competing for attention in a world of louder and louder work since the 50s. Some artists get it more than others, yet when they are listening on a playlist they need a certain something. Demos are loud today, mixes are competing with demos, masters are competing with mixes. ALL LOUD thanks to cheap or free limiters in the hands of anyone. THIS IS REALITY not some blame the ME bullshit. FACTS: 1. Everything I do is approved by the artist and GUIDED by the artist. 600 a year. The aim is to MOVE AIR when loud, get my work net to OTHER WORK and let me know. I move air and have low end at volumes that no one else can do. 2. There is a line that I don't like to cross, and yet I will cross it to SERVE THE ARTIST. I have at times spoken up, and will do so again if needed, YET IT'S USUALLY IN VAIN. 3. The loudness trend is MOSTLY fading. There are always POP records from MAJOR LABELS who will succumb to fear, and those records are so well done that they sell anyway, so it's not going away soon. But you think the ME is responsible? No. 4. I am responsible for UPGRADING THE MIXES at ANY DR. Thus DR=nothing. And I am responsible MOSTLY increasing the musicality ... for MOST people ... SERVING the PRODUCTION TEAM. 5. If you don't like modern levels in records there is no pleasing you Fair enough.. 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I understand that completely, notice the difference between what the artist heard in the studio (my words) and what the artist intended (your words). Dr is an artistic decision, as is the selection of microphone and guitar. However, when someone says DR = nothing to me, that's very concerning. I'd love to know if artists had to listen to their own dynamically compressed music every night on the road if they'd think twice about it. If they still like it, maybe they need to get instruments and microphones with far less dynamic range, to reduce what is necessary in the DAW. I am the studio also, you have it all wrong. DR = nothing means that I'M NOT A DOGMATIC ASSHOLE. I am interested in the most MUSICAL result GIVEN THE SITUATION. My louder records are ALL BETTER SOUNDING THAN THE MORE DYNAMIC MIXES. Dynamics iS NOT THE MAIN THING in music. Maybe it is to you? Ok. 1 hour ago, Fair Hedon said: But you do understand that Brian and other mastering engineers receive mixes that already have lowish DR..and that IS what the artist intended. Thank you. 1 hour ago, Shadders said: Hi, I suppose there is a limit. A DR = 1 to 3 will sound rather poor. I checked the database and some albums that sound very good - vocals clear and precise etc, have a DR on average of 6 to 8. I agree with the wall of sound statement - i have some albums like that - no realistic distinction between instruments. Regards, Shadders. This is all very subjective. Again my role is to IMPROVE the mixes and SERVE THE ARTIST. STC, Pure Vinyl Club and mansr 2 1 Link to comment
Shadders Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 10 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: This is all very subjective. Again my role is to IMPROVE the mixes and SERVE THE ARTIST. Hi, OK - thanks. Was the low DR/Loudness War due to the record labels or artists targeting the music for Mid-Fi or Low-Fi products, or radio ? Since audio enthusiasts are in the extreme minority, then what we prefer will be ignored. Regards, Shadders. Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted November 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2017 15 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: a world of louder and louder work since the 50s We haven't seen the worst of it yet: http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Disaster_Area 4est, esldude and Confused 2 1 Link to comment
mansr Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, Shadders said: Was the low DR/Loudness War due to the record labels or artists targeting the music for Mid-Fi or Low-Fi products, or radio ? I always heard it was done to make the songs stand out on radio, thereby generating sales. In these modern times, the same strategy presumably applies to Spotify playlists. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted November 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2017 10 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: DR = nothing means that I'M NOT A DOGMATIC ASSHOLE. I am interested in the most MUSICAL result GIVEN THE SITUATION. My louder records are ALL BETTER SOUNDING THAN THE MORE DYNAMIC MIXES. Dynamics iS NOT THE MAIN THING in music. Maybe it is to you? Ok. Dude, no need to YELL. Despite what you think, audiophiles tend to be a smart bunch, capable of comprehending well structured sentences. Just ask our readers here who are sending rockets to the ISS and operating on people’s brains. Thus, when you say DR = nothing, we must take you at your word. You are the one who mentioned being a dogmatic asshole. Not sure where that came from. When I interviewed Neil Young, he told me “Dynamic Range is king.” When you appealed to his authority earlier in the thread, I thought you may also believe what he says. Who isn’t interested in the most musical result? You say that like it’s a foreign concept to others. I’ll take Pearl Jam on an AM radio over ultra dynamic Scottish nose whistle at 32/284 kHz. It’s aleays about the music. DR can never be the main thing. But it’s something. According to you it’s nothing. That’s sad. I love hearing real instruments sound like real instruments. Drums sound like drums rather than sticks hitting paper. esldude, Shadders, ds58 and 3 others 3 2 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Brian Lucey Posted November 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2017 Being intelligent and understanding how records are made, are discrete. I don't see a lot of understanding here. Sorry to YELL yet YOU ALL SEEM DEAF TO THE REALITY. Maybe it's a matter of ignorance, so I am sharing. DR as a number on an island means nothing. Those measuring have no idea what is going on in the production team. We are given a set of mixes. The artist signs off. The article describes my aims, and Neil agrees. DR as a main priority in mastering is not correct. It's a factor, yet a record that moves air can measure with less dynamics than a flat sounding one. Listen, don't measure. That is #1. My work is always more punchy than the mixes, always. Even when it's louder. How is this possible? Transients = emotion not just overall DR. I will simply push if asked, until it breaks, to my taste. Which is obviously shared by many. When I try to send dynamic work ... it is rejected ... 99% of the time. 1 in 100 or 200 asks for a more dynamic record. Pure Vinyl Club and Rt66indierock 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Brian Lucey Posted November 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2017 20 minutes ago, Shadders said: Hi, OK - thanks. Was the low DR/Loudness War due to the record labels or artists targeting the music for Mid-Fi or Low-Fi products, or radio ? Since audio enthusiasts are in the extreme minority, then what we prefer will be ignored. Regards, Shadders. Fear and Love ... these are the main human motivations. Fear = a need for loudness, for decades. Monkey brain. Fear is millions of years old. I see the trend decreasing, except in major label pop. Yet not to -9. That's over for now at least. Rt66indierock and Pure Vinyl Club 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Fair Hedon Posted November 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2017 3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I understand that completely, notice the difference between what the artist heard in the studio (my words) and what the artist intended (your words). Dr is an artistic decision, as is the selection of microphone and guitar. However, when someone says DR = nothing to me, that's very concerning. I'd love to know if artists had to listen to their own dynamically compressed music every night on the road if they'd think twice about it. If they still like it, maybe they need to get instruments and microphones with far less dynamic range, to reduce what is necessary in the DAW. Steve Guttenberg wrote an interesting piece about DR and current digital production. I took away from it that the sound of modern records is exactly what current artists want. It is THEIR era. I know a lot of people would love studio production to have have been frozen in 1977, and Aja being the way every record should sound. But that is literally like parchment paper to today's artists. In the 60s when rock bands were using fuzz boxes, tape saturation, overdubs, large amps, and massive for the time PA systems, the previous generation was aghast. The Beatles were mercilessly attacked by engineers from the 1950s. In fact, we all know that Dylan going electric caused ripples that were unmeasuralbe and I believe it was Pete Seeger who had to be restrained from cutting the PA wires at Newport when Dylan was onstage. It is rather presumptuous to tell current bands like Cage The Elephant, Ray Lamontagne, The Black Keys, and hundreds of others that their records should sound like Led Zeppelin II or Hotel California. rickca, Rt66indierock and MikeyFresh 2 1 Link to comment
rickca Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Brian Lucey said: When I try to send dynamic work ... it is rejected ... 99% of the time. Really interesting. Thanks, Brian. Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
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