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MQA Off-Topic Spinoff


Abtr

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10 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

...

These are VERY loud records, to be sure.  They are also loved by both artists, both labels ...  and both are Billboard #1s.

 

When you do 200 records a year there is no time to be an a$$hole or a snob, it's a service job and we can only make dynamic records when that is what the client wants.   Tell me, what do you do for a living?   Do you ignore your clients or do you serve them?

 

Hi Brian. My apologies if I offended you. The dynamic range of your masterings says nothing about your capability to detect euphonics and harmonic distortion in MQA. I see you use tube amps..
 
Regarding some of your work, Lucinda williams: Sweet old world has DR11, which is fine, but that was 1992. Ray Lamontagne: Supernova has DR6 in 2014, and Cage The Elephant: Tell me I'm pretty, has DR5! (2015). These last two albums are unlistenable to me. They shout at me, it hurts my ears. Quite the opposite of what you call: "enhancing the connection between artist and audience."

 

So you say that you as mastering engineer are not responsible for excessive compression and that this is done in the mixing stage. Does this mean you have to work with material that is already severely dynamically compressed? That must be horrible. I don't think I could do it and probably would refuse the job. Luckily I only have to keep my boss happy and as a programmer I fully control how to make software user friendly. :)

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1 hour ago, Abtr said:
2 hours ago, PeterSt said:

...

b)  you don't like the dynamical range

 

Now what ?

(challenge)

 

There is a version of Crime Of The Century (MFSL 1987) that has on average DR16, which may be a bit too much of a good thing. Are you perhaps referring to that release? (Other releases have DR13 or DR9.)

 

Very correct !

(but you were a little bit pre-informed 9_9)

 

Notice that the MFSL could be a little bit faked (pumped up somehow) as the "original" (I have) carries about 2/3 of the maximum digital headroom while the MFSL utilizes 100% of it. But have the same average "SPL", so the MFSL is even more dynamic and with that unlistenable. I am serious. You can't play this album at any level where you "hear something" without exploding a few minutes later from the loudness.

It is the one and seriously only album which IMO completely failed on CD, especially because it is one of the top albums ever (again IMO of course).

All of the others fail to because you can hear they did something to it to make it right, which includes the MQA version which could be one of the better (but still not right).

 

Thank you Abtr.

 

PS: I should add to this that my "system" doesn't help with this because it is highly dynamical itself (like 118dB sensitive horns with thus "super speed" might it tell something to someone). It is the only album my wife time after time complains about, never mind I play it only once per 6 months or so and never mind I each time start out with it more softly. It is just the sudden difference in level which startles (in each of the tracks).

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3 hours ago, Abtr said:

 

Hi Brian. My apologies if I offended you. The dynamic range of your masterings says nothing about your capability to detect euphonics and harmonic distortion in MQA. I see you use tube amps..
 
Regarding some of your work, Lucinda williams: Sweet old world has DR11, which is fine, but that was 1992. Ray Lamontagne: Supernova has DR6 in 2014, and Cage The Elephant: Tell me I'm pretty, has DR5! (2015). These last two albums are unlistenable to me. They shout at me, it hurts my ears. Quite the opposite of what you call: "enhancing the connection between artist and audience."

 

So you say that you as mastering engineer are not responsible for excessive compression and that this is done in the mixing stage. Does this mean you have to work with material that is already severely dynamically compressed? That must be horrible. I don't think I could do it and probably would refuse the job. Luckily I only have to keep my boss happy and as a programmer I fully control how to make software user friendly. :)

 

User friendly software = easier to use = encouraging laziness right?  lol

 

I am never offended by a stranger, especially an insulting audiophile.  Yes the mixes are compressed and no you couldn't do anything I do.  I serve music and artists and production teams, it's not a Kingdom of Power.

 

Neil Young has replied to my post that you dismissed, in the positive, and yes that is him.  Maybe he can persuade you to show respect.

 

P.S.  DR=nothing to me.   

 

I'm sure your system sounds great FOR YOU and is set up to be favorable FOR YOUR STYLES of production.   That is not a standard for all, however. There is no perfection only connection.  If you are not connecting with modern music that is not the fault of one party, it's just a bad marriage, move on.

 

P.S.  Lucinda was just released, I did her last two records.   They are as dynamic as modern pop music gets.   Sweet Old World was rerecorded from scratch.  Maybe you will  like that one.  Or try Chet Faker - 'Built on Glass' it has some loud bits yet a ton of range for modern music. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said:

   HF details are not the prime currency of music, they are only one form of ear candy in a cocktail of musicality.

Hi,

 

Is it me, or does anyone else have the vision of the Spitting Image character for Mick Jagger, smoking something dubious, inhaling, and saying the line above as he exhales.... man.

 

image.png.453a35e28afbd6945cb1d5e948dc49df.png

 

Regards,

Shadders.

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34 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said:

When multiple rates are sold of the same master, we get into PREFERENCE.   This makes the audiophile invest not only in the playback system as a form of creativity, yet also in the results of each format ... this last step is unreal and unhealthy.   The definitive master exists.  Always.   And if we are not ABing the ACTUAL MASTER to the OTHER format, we CANNOT say anything definitive, ever ... nothing except I like it, or I don't like it.   More personal investment and pseudo creativity.

 

P.S. MQAs harmonic distortion and slight brightess are two very old tricks to make people "like" something subjectively.

 

Unfortunately, the labels usually withhold the "definitive master" to their and the artists customers because of comprehensible commercial reasons. Today, the vast majority of new "HiRes" albums are published only in 24/44.1 or /48 and not in the original master resolution. Maybe, we will see this masterings as MQA "deflection" to support this unfortunate fraud.

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1 hour ago, Brian Lucey said:

We need to sell the 24 bit files at the native rate and call it a day. 

 

Well, you've got my vote for King of the Music Industry.

1 hour ago, Brian Lucey said:

MQAs harmonic distortion and slight brightess are two very old tricks to make people "like" something subjectively.

 

It appears to be working on much of the audiophile media.

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49 minutes ago, labjr said:

 There's a lot of crap being sold over and over again.

 

 I'll probably buy Sargent Peppers for the 5th or 6th time, at least it's not crap :D

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12 minutes ago, beetlemania said:

 I'll probably buy Sargent Peppers for the 5th or 6th time, at least it's not crap :D

 

I'm not talking about the content. But rather the mastering job or digital transfer. There's a lot of great albums which are not done justice in the transfer to digital formats. I think Sgt Pepper is about as good as it gets.

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22 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

 

User friendly software = easier to use = encouraging laziness right?  lol

 

I am never offended by a stranger, especially an insulting audiophile.  Yes the mixes are compressed and no you couldn't do anything I do.  I serve music and artists and production teams, it's not a Kingdom of Power.

 

Neil Young has replied to my post that you dismissed, in the positive, and yes that is him.  Maybe he can persuade you to show respect.

 

P.S.  DR=nothing to me.   

 

I'm sure your system sounds great FOR YOU and is set up to be favorable FOR YOUR STYLES of production.   That is not a standard for all, however. There is no perfection only connection.  If you are not connecting with modern music that is not the fault of one party, it's just a bad marriage, move on.

 

P.S.  Lucinda was just released, I did her last two records.   They are as dynamic as modern pop music gets.   Sweet Old World was rerecorded from scratch.  Maybe you will  like that one.  Or try Chet Faker - 'Built on Glass' it has some loud bits yet a ton of range for modern music. 

 

 

Well, I generally like to relax a bit when I listen to music. A DR below 7 or 6 makes that impossible. Everything shouts equally for attention and nothing is subtle, even if the music genre is laid-back. I cannot 'connect' with a flat wall of sound, and somehow low DR impairs SQ. Neil Young seems to understand this. His albums all have decent DR and sound good to me.

 

I do respect you and your work. I believe you're doing the best you can with the material you have to work with. But why insist that DR = meaningless? I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. (Overly) compressed music simply isn't as interesting and involving as less compressed music, and that is *not* an artefact of my audio system..

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29 minutes ago, Abtr said:

 

Well, I generally like to relax a bit when I listen to music. A DR below 7 or 6 makes that impossible. Everything shouts equally for attention and nothing is subtle, even if the music genre is laid-back. I cannot 'connect' with a flat wall of sound, and somehow low DR impairs SQ. Neil Young seems to understand this. His albums all have decent DR and sound good to me.

 

I do respect you and your work. I believe you're doing the best you can with the material you have to work with. But why insist that DR = meaningless? I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. (Overly) compressed music simply isn't as interesting and involving as less compressed music, and that is *not* an artefact of my audio system..

Hi,

I suppose there is a limit. A DR = 1 to 3 will sound rather poor. I checked the database and some albums that sound very good - vocals clear and precise etc, have a DR on average of 6 to 8.

I agree with the wall of sound statement - i have some albums like that - no realistic distinction between instruments.

Regards,

Shadders.

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2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That's really too bad. Removing dynamic range can make a recording sound nothing like the artist and recording engineers heard in the studio.

 

Lack of DR can make all the time spent on perfecting one's sound, worthless. 

 

I hope DR stills means something to the front of house engineers. I can't imagine going to a concert that sounded as bad as some records. 

 

But you do understand that Brian and other mastering engineers receive mixes that already have lowish DR..and that IS what the artist intended.

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8 minutes ago, Fair Hedon said:

But you do understand that Brian and other mastering engineers receive mixes that already have lowish DR..and that IS what the artist intended.

I understand that completely, notice the difference between what the artist heard in the studio (my words) and what the artist intended (your words). Dr is an artistic decision, as is the selection of microphone and guitar. 

 

However, when someone says DR = nothing to me, that's very concerning. I'd love to know if artists had to listen to their own dynamically compressed music every night on the road if they'd think twice about it. If they still like it, maybe they need to get instruments and microphones with far less dynamic range, to reduce what is necessary in the DAW. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said:

This is all very subjective.  

 

Again my role is to IMPROVE the mixes and SERVE THE ARTIST.

 

 

Hi,

OK - thanks.

Was the low DR/Loudness War due to the record labels or artists targeting the music for Mid-Fi or Low-Fi products, or radio ?

Since audio enthusiasts are in the extreme minority, then what we prefer will be ignored.

Regards,

Shadders.

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4 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Was the low DR/Loudness War due to the record labels or artists targeting the music for Mid-Fi or Low-Fi products, or radio ?

I always heard it was done to make the songs stand out on radio, thereby generating sales. In these modern times, the same strategy presumably applies to Spotify playlists.

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2 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

When I try to send dynamic work ... it is rejected ... 99% of the time.

Really interesting.  Thanks, Brian.

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