Is bass management required for all-music 5.1 system?

[jjkale]

I'm curious if anyone has a take on whether bass management is really required for music only 5.1 tracks.  My files are sourced either from Bluray, DSD, DVDA or download.
My mains (Revel F208) are flat to below 40 and are also bi-amped; plenty of power from a MCH amp.  The room is decent and I am proficient with JRiver DSP and REW.
For bluray and television, I employ a separate all-digital chain.
Is bass management really required for my music chain?
Thanks very much, good weekend.

[mansr]

If the main channels of your music tracks contain frequencies that are better handled by your sub, you'll benefit from bass management, otherwise not.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

My system sounds better with music and measures better with a sub and bass management.  Therefore, I use it all the time, together with DSP room EQ.

[anwaypasible]

you wanna run the mains in full range to get more nuance from the lowest frequencies, unless there's distortion leading you to trim the low end.

you also abide the stereo effect of bass 41hz & higher - then when audio effects are used, such as adding very low notes to fill the room with an atmospheric effect the sound will be more full & richer with value.

otherwise you are trimming the low end & needing a vst plugin such as maxxbass to get good lows from the mains.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

5 minutes ago, anwaypasible said:

you wanna run the mains in full range to get more nuance from the lowest frequencies, unless there's distortion leading you to trim the low end.

you also abide the stereo effect of bass 41hz & higher - then when audio effects are used, such as adding very low notes to fill the room with an atmospheric effect the sound will be more full & richer with value.

otherwise you are trimming the low end & needing a vst plugin such as maxxbass to get good lows from the mains.

Floyd Toole and many others put the frequency at which bass localization occurs at 80 Hz or even slightly higher.  Also, there is no listener preference for stereo bass below that frequency in his scientific studies.  He advocates use of a mono deep bass channel, even if multiple subs are used.

 

There will likely be differences between a single sub, multiple subs, woofers in the main channels used with/without a sub, a sub plus no HPF on the mains, etc.  The choice is yours. A good sub, even in mono single sub configuration works extremely well for me with music using xovers in the 60-80Hz range.  Lower does not work better for me.  Multiple subs or subs plus mains in the bass are trickier to synchronize in set up, particularly in phase.

 

Since the thread is about bass management, many Mch discs have a mono .1 or LFE channel for the deep bass.  This includes Mch SACDs, some of which are 5.0, others 5.1.  Even if you do not use a sub, that .1 input channel needs bass management to mix it into the deep bass in  the main channels, setting them as "large" or "full range" in an AVR or prepro.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[anwaypasible]

yeah well good ol' floyd isn't better than the math dictating 40 as the foes, and i say foes because their ability to be localized is none.

if you want mono bleeding into your soundstage from the bottom up, that is your restraint & certainly your soundstage can't be as clean & clear as it could be while your overall nuance is going to be phase shifted at the top & achieving a signal to noise ratio that appears to be darkness is going to start good at the top (though off as i said), then grow increasingly worse as you get lower in the frequencies.
you can't be close to confused about in phase or still combing., it isn't possible based on where your crossover is set to.

it probably sounds like a diaper pad in the midbass with forward-casted (outward) top end.

 

what satisfies a real time analyzer doesn't guarantee sonic bliss.

 

for what it is worth,

it's 40hz longways in a very rectangled room & 80hz the way the seats normally face in a theater.

but that only applies to zero effort to build a sweet spot.

[wgscott]

On 10/20/2017 at 7:00 PM, jjkale said:

I'm curious if anyone has a take on whether bass management is really required for music only 5.1 tracks.  My files are sourced either from Bluray, DSD, DVDA or download.
My mains (Revel F208) are flat to below 40 and are also bi-amped; plenty of power from a MCH amp.  The room is decent and I am proficient with JRiver DSP and REW.
For bluray and television, I employ a separate all-digital chain.
Is bass management really required for my music chain?
Thanks very much, good weekend.

 

Turn the sub off.  Does the music sound better or worse?  If it sounds worse, then bass management should be able to help (or just keep the sub turned off).  If the crossover is set high, such that signal higher than 80Hz is being reproduced (measure the output of the sub only, with the mains turned off), the sub might be degrading the stereo effect.  Jim Smith advocates two subs, run in stereo, or none.

[anwaypasible]

8 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

Turn the sub off.  Does the music sound better or worse?  If it sounds worse, then bass management should be able to help (or just keep the sub turned off).  If the crossover is set high, such that signal higher than 80Hz is being reproduced (measure the output of the sub only, with the mains turned off), the sub might be degrading the stereo effect.  Jim Smith advocates two subs, run in stereo, or none.

why do you assume the room is long & rectangled like a theater & they are sitting the same way the theater seats normally are?

is this some sort of insight prior to the thread being created?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

16 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

Turn the sub off.  Does the music sound better or worse?  If it sounds worse, then bass management should be able to help (or just keep the sub turned off).  If the crossover is set high, such that signal higher than 80Hz is being reproduced (measure the output of the sub only, with the mains turned off), the sub might be degrading the stereo effect.  Jim Smith advocates two subs, run in stereo, or none.

Not a Jim Smith fan, myself. I am an ex-subscriber. But, I expect he is focused on stereo rather than Mch systems. Stereos typically have no bass management and few subs have good or complete xover capability internally.  So, stereo subs may be the best choice for typical stereo systems, but not necessarily for Mch systems with bass management.  In my system, one excellent JL Audio f113 via bass management is unquestionably and without doubt superior to running my large Martin Logan Prodigys full range with no sub, even on stereo material.

 

But, again, there is no scientific evidence that we can hear or prefer stereo in the deep bass fundamental tones.  YMMV, and unfounded beliefs abound, but physics and acoustics tell us that the directional cues from the bass tones are actually conveyed by the harmonics of the fundamental, which lie mostly above the sub xover frequency.

 

My sub is on the right, and I have taken note on some symphonic recordings of the location of the tympani or bass drum or double basses.  I hear no problem at all if those bass instruments are actually located in the center or to the left on the recording.  The imaging is just as good as when they are recorded on the right or in the center, as is more usual in the orchestral layout.

 

Two subs, or more even, can be a very good thing if properly set up and synchronized.  They can add some headroom, if needed.  I don't need it.  More importantly, they can help minimize the effects of room modes, as can DSP room EQ, though those approaches are not necessarily equivalent, particularly in filling in nulls which may be present in the bass response. Fortunately, in my room, there are no measurable nulls which cannot be corrected by DSP EQ.

[wgscott]

1 hour ago, anwaypasible said:

why do you assume the room is long & rectangled like a theater & they are sitting the same way the theater seats normally are?

is this some sort of insight prior to the thread being created?

 

Why are you suggesting I have made any assumptions about the shape of the room?  Are you mistaking me for a different person, or are you just overcome with expectation bias?  I haven't said a goddamn thing about the "room being long and rectangled like a theatre".  WTF?

[wgscott]

37 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Not a Jim Smith fan, myself.

 

I'm not suggesting you have, but some people miss what Jim Smith is suggesting, because it is so contrary to "common knowledge."

 

The main points, assuming I have understood them correctly, are

 

1.  Run the main speakers with their full range, as low as they go, with no cutoff applied.

2.  Run the subs using speaker-level input in parallel with the mains.  (Rel, B&W, Velodyne and others offer this option).

3.  Hook up one sub to the left speaker channel, and the other to the right speaker channel.

4. Dial in the crossover on the sub (not the mains) empirically.  (It may well be above, or tail off, above 80Hz.)

 

As for home theatre LFE, you need N.2, not N.1, in order to have stereo subs, so that is a different question.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

18 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

I'm not suggesting you have, but some people miss what Jim Smith is suggesting, because it is so contrary to "common knowledge."

 

The main points, assuming I have understood them correctly, are

 

1.  Run the main speakers with their full range, as low as they go, with no cutoff applied.

2.  Run the subs using speaker-level input in parallel with the mains.  (Rel, B&W, Velodyne and others offer this option).

3.  Hook up one sub to the left speaker channel, and the other to the right speaker channel.

4. Dial in the crossover on the sub (not the mains) empirically.  (It may well be above, or tail off, above 80Hz.)

 

As for home theatre LFE, you need N.2, not N.1, in order to have stereo subs, so that is a different question.

Yup.  Understood.  I prefer a digital domain HPF on the main channels, myself, rather than running them full range, but stereos generally lack that as do many subs.  It can be better for power handling and dynamics by offloading more bass to the sub.  Also, phase synchronization may be easier with the HPF and deep bass going only to the sub or subs.

 

There is always a good, valid theoretical argument about two subs being better than one, even with a mono bass channel.  I let measurements be my guide, as well as my ears.  Right now, I find single sub to be more than adequate, but others might see or hear the benefit of more.

[anwaypasible]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

 

Why are you suggesting I have made any assumptions about the shape of the room?  Are you mistaking me for a different person, or are you just overcome with expectation bias?  I haven't said a goddamn thing about the "room being long and rectangled like a theatre".  WTF?

getting vengeance for wrongful truth is what i did & you're considering it expectation bias is merely antagonistic attitude.

if i had nearly 14,000 posts & was giving bad advice, i would want somebody to stop me - however, you seem to be different.

also,

i edited my post - perhaps the answer you are looking for is there.
 

[wgscott]

6 hours ago, anwaypasible said:

getting vengeance for wrongful truth is what i did & you're considering it expectation bias is merely antagonistic attitude.

if i had nearly 14,000 posts & was giving bad advice, i would want somebody to stop me - however, you seem to be different.

also,

i edited my post - perhaps the answer you are looking for is there.
 

 

All I said was turn the sub off and see if it sounds better or worse.  

 

 

I don't think there is anything in your bizarre reply except a bunch of crazy nonsense and non-sequetors, and the rantings of another anonymous psycho on the internet.  I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and have already wasted far too much time trying to find out, so welcome to my ignore list.  Bye!

[wgscott]

<double post>

[PorkChop]

I try to avoid making generalizations, but after experimenting for years with subwoofers and high-quality satellites, I think that any #.1 system benefits from well-executed bass management. 

 

[anwaypasible]

17 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Yup.  Understood.  I prefer a digital domain HPF on the main channels, myself, rather than running them full range, but stereos generally lack that as do many subs.  It can be better for power handling and dynamics by offloading more bass to the sub.  Also, phase synchronization may be easier with the HPF and deep bass going only to the sub or subs.

 

There is always a good, valid theoretical argument about two subs being better than one, even with a mono bass channel.  I let measurements be my guide, as well as my ears.  Right now, I find single sub to be more than adequate, but others might see or hear the benefit of more.

it goes on the principle of vehicle stereos & the bass coming from the back causing people to desire more bass fill in the front.
as front to back can be demonstrated arguing for stereo bass, it's only a matter of twisting the situation until it becomes left & right.

it sounds like there's more dynamics with a hpf on the mains because there's less atmospheric nuance to contrast, leaving basically only brown & pink noise at most.
it is expected to lose spectral density when using a hpf because all of the .001hz & such doesn't make it to the speaker since the hpf cuts 'em out.
the goal is to make it to beyond grey & white noise (*simulated atmosphere).
violet & brown are the maximum amplitude
blue & pink are the transients
white & grey are the nuances