Build a SOA Immersive Audio System for Less Than $10K

[witchdoctor]

The MQA thread is boring beyond all hope. What a bunch of nonsense arguing over a format available for $10 a month extra. 

I started this thread so you can enjoy SOA sound reproduction at home, in a high WAF low budget system.

If you are a dedicated two channel hobbyist and COMPLETELY satisfied you will not like this thread. This thread will challenge the current status and push the boundaries of the SOA.

Immerisive audio is the future, two channel is ancient beyond all repair. Check out what they are learning over at the AES:

http://www.aes.org/blog/2017/10/youre-surrounded-aes-new-york-2017s

 

So their are two ways to get started in immersive audio, with active speakers or passive. Passive systems can't carry the jock strap of an active system and are preferred. If you MUST go passive so be it. I will discuss both. You first decision is a speaker layout. You can do Atmos or Auro/Ambeo layouts. If your primary interest is movies Atmos has more content available hands down. Use an atmos setup as shown here:  https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/index.html

 

IMO Atmos sucks for music reproduction. Have you ever attended a concert that had speakers above you firing down? It would only make sense if your ears were on top of your head IMO. howver it works great for thunderstorms and helicopters in movies.

 

If your interest is movies and music or primarily music auro 3d is the layout that's better. Here is the auro 3d setup guidelines:

 

https://www.stormaudio.com/media/auro3d_home_theater_setup_guidelines_v8_20170531__049790400_1458_13062017.pdf

 

Once you decide on a layout you need to choose equipment.

[witchdoctor]

If you are going Atmos you need to choose between upfiring atmos speakers or down firing ceiling speakers. I think down firing ceiling speakers are preferred and upfiring speakers are a last resort. There are tons of receivers offering atmos and dts x. I recommend one that has the ability to offer all 3 formats auro 3d, atmos and dts-x. To do that for less than $10K you need to select denon or marantz such as this one if you are using passive speakers:

 

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4300h/denon-avr-x4300h-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html

 

If you are going with active speakers try the Marantz 8802:

 

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marav8802a/marantz-av8802a-11.2-ch-networking-a/v-preamp/processor/1.html

 

 

[witchdoctor]

Now if you are going atmos and already have 5.1 or 7.1 contact your speaker vendor and see if you can get the same brand for your atmos speakers. If you are starting from square one and going passive speakers for atmos look at RSL:

 

https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg3-5-1-4-dolby-atmos-home-theater-speaker-system/

 

 

If you are going passive auro 3D look at SVS:

 

Prime Satellite 5.1  https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-satellite-5-1

 

plus

 

4 Prime elevation speakers:

 

https://www.svsound.com/pages/prime-elevation

 

Go with a sat/sub system. You don't need monster tower speakers for immersive audio. You want high WAF? Scrap the towers and use a sub/sat system which can be eye candy for the living room when installed sensibly.

[witchdoctor]

Now for the active system. If you are doing active speakers you will want to go with an auro 3D layout. Active speakers need power cords so you will need long power cords and long interconnects. I use a wireless adapter for my rear speakers and skipped running long interconnects from the front to the back of the room. If you are on a tight budget go with JBL LSR 308's as your bed channels and 305's for your height channels. You can pair them with the JBL LSR 310 sub:

 

https://www.amazon.com/JBL-LSR305-Powered-Studio-Monitor/dp/B00DUKP37C/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1508505005&sr=1-1&keywords=lsr305

 

https://www.amazon.com/JBL-LSR310S-Powered-Studio-Subwoofer/dp/B00I08RT3U

 

if you have more budget go with the Neumann KH 120A monitors all around:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Neumann-KH-120-Active-Monitor/dp/B004OA84DM/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1508505048&sr=1-1&keywords=neumann+monitor

 

and the sub:

https://www.amazon.com/Neumann-KH-805-Active-Subwoofer/dp/B017HSA6GA/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1508505098&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=neumann+subwoofer

[witchdoctor]

So if you want SOA on a low budget/ high waf system I hope you have enough info to get started. These setups will blow away a 2 channel system of up to $50K for movies and most music reproduction. 
 

[Mordikai]

Hey- thanks for doing this. It sounds like a reasonable approach. I'll forever maintain a 2 channel system for my main listening room but I've been thinking of turning half the garage into a home theatre/play room for the kids. Have you listened to many of the current powered monitors? I used to have the Mackie hr824ll and thought they were pretty good. I'm curious how they compare to the kh120 which a lot of people really like. Which monitors are you using?

[witchdoctor]

23 minutes ago, Mordikai said:

Hey- thanks for doing this. It sounds like a reasonable approach. I'll forever maintain a 2 channel system for my main listening room but I've been thinking of turning half the garage into a home theatre/play room for the kids. Have you listened to many of the current powered monitors? I used to have the Mackie hr824ll and thought they were pretty good. I'm curious how they compare to the kh120 which a lot of people really like. Which monitors are you using?

I'm using Paradigm Active Reference speakers. They are out of production but I have been able to find them pre-owned as I added to my system. Today the best place to audition powered monitors is a local Guitar Center if you have one. The sales people are really nice and will let you go back and forth as much as you like. Most of them have user reviews posted online too if you search. If you don't have a Guitar Center near by try an online store called Sweetwater. Call them and they will be able to answer very specific questions. Neumann is now owned by Sennheiser. Everyone knows their mics but their monitors kick ass. They acquired Klein & Hummel when they decided to start offering monitors. They used Neumann monitors at Abbey Road studios to remaster the classic tracks in ambeo immersive audio for the London show so how wrong can those guys be? Here is a review on the 120's (the most accurate speakers the reviewer ever measured):

 

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/neumann/kh-120-a.htm

 

Klipsch just released some new active speakers as well which are insanely priced. These speakers are different than the studio monitors as are fully contained audio "systems". You can hook a source, even a turntable, right up to the speakers and push play. They even have a remote!

http://www.klipsch.com/powered-speakers

 

I would say for the new HT you are building an immersive system using the JBL LSR 305 or Mackies would be fine. You can also get one of the marantz immerisive processors at accessories4less.com at about half off retail. You want to make sure your height speakers can tilt around 15 degrees, here is the type of mount I would consider:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Halter-Adjustable-Mounting-Surround-Rotation/dp/B01HBY4GXO/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1508621821&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=speaker+mounts&psc=1

 

Do you have a good internet connection in the garage?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mordikai]

I'll check out Guitar center. I live in the boondocks so my internet is marginal, it's as good in the garage as anywhere. When we stream we use the lowest quality for video content. I typically just buy blurays.

[witchdoctor]

3 hours ago, Mordikai said:

I'll check out Guitar center. I live in the boondocks so my internet is marginal, it's as good in the garage as anywhere. When we stream we use the lowest quality for video content. I typically just buy blurays.

If you have bad wireless try a powerline adapter, it works great and you can use a wired ethernet connection anywhere in the home that has a wall socket. Netgear is about the best:

 

https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-PowerLINE-Gigabit-Pass-Through-PLP1000-100PAS/dp/B01M2WSIVD/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1508635121&sr=8-5&keywords=netgear+powerline

[esimms86]

The majority of multichannel classical and pop/rock recordings are mixed in 5.1 and are available in DVD, SACD and Blu ray formats, plus DSD downloads from nativedsd.com. FYI, Stephen and Michael Smyth use Yamaha HS8 powered monitors and HS8S powered subwoofers to demo and make personalized virtual PRIRs for their Smyth Realiser A16 system. They use them in an 11.1.4 setup (i.e., including 4 speakers mounted on stands in down firing configurations) and they sound fantastic. Yamaha’s speakers are available at Sweetwater.com and they’re priced similar to  Klipsch powered monitors.

 

Also, Auro3D and Dolby Atmos Blu Ray demo discs can be found at Amazon and/or eBay.

[witchdoctor]

2 hours ago, esimms86 said:

The majority of multichannel classical and pop/rock recordings are mixed in 5.1 and are available in DVD, SACD and Blu ray formats, plus DSD downloads from nativedsd.com. FYI, Stephen and Michael Smyth use Yamaha HS8 powered monitors and HS8S powered subwoofers to demo and make personalized virtual PRIRs for their Smyth Realiser A16 system. They use them in an 11.1.4 setup (i.e., including 4 speakers mounted on stands in down firing configurations) and they sound fantastic. Yamaha’s speakers are available at Sweetwater.com and they’re priced similar to  Klipsch powered monitors.

 

Also, Auro3D and Dolby Atmos Blu Ray demo discs can be found at Amazon and/or eBay.

Those HS8's look awesome, 8 inch woofer and dig down below 40 HZ. You could do the HS8's as bed channels and the HS5's for height channels. BTW, I think you mean a 7.1.4 setup which would be a total of 11 speakers plus a subwoofer.

If you are not doing Auro 3D and only want Atmos and DTS-X I bet they would be an incredible match with a Yamaha processor:

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamcxa5100/yamaha-cx-a5100-11.2-channel-preamp/processor-w/dolby/1.html

 

I have my height channels on stands too. They don't look as nice as wall mounts but really let you dial in your speaker placement with height as well as being able to move them around. Now you got me tempted to do a system like this in my basement just to compare. Here is a shot of the stands I use for height channels. I needed to get an adapter so I could tilt them down, no big deal.

 

I have an Auro 3D music disc by George McCrae and Roger Water's movie The Wall mixed in atmos. I have the Auro 3D demo disc as well. Both Auro and Atmos have upmixers to convert standard content to immersive content. The upmixed content sounds so similar to natively mixed content in my system I haven't felt the need to go buy more natively mixed content.

 

 

[esimms86]

Yes, I meant to say 7.1.4; I stand corrected. Here are a couple of pictures of the Smyth Realiser A16 demo setup. Note the banner in the 2nd picture in which they mention both Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D.

 

 

[witchdoctor]

35 minutes ago, esimms86 said:

Yes, I meant to say 7.1.4; I stand corrected. Here are a couple of pictures of the Smyth Realiser A16 demo setup. Note the banner in the 2nd picture in which they mention both Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D.

 

 

That pic put a smile on my face, thanks for posting. They are using an auro 3D layout which works great for atmos too to my ear. Those stands are tall, sturdy, but very light. Those active speakers look small compared to towers but because they are active have bass response that are comparable to a lot of towers. You could put a system together like this using the Yamaha processor, the HS sub and in a space that big the HS5's would work fine for less than $5K all in and you already know how it sounds. When I built my system I had the bed channels first. Then I added two height speakers in front. A few months later the addtional two height speakers in back. Eventually I add the VOG above. I was enjoying my system all the while I was adding immersive to it, you don't need to go all in at once. thanks a LOT for posting these pics. 

[witchdoctor]

1 minute ago, witchdoctor said:

bump

 

[Mordikai]

I've not heard the 3D Smyth Realizer demo but I have heard the regular stereo one a couple years ago at Burning Amp and it was pretty amazing!

[esimms86]

56 minutes ago, witchdoctor said:

That pic put a smile on my face, thanks for posting. They are using an auro 3D layout which works great for atmos too to my ear. Those stands are tall, sturdy, but very light. Those active speakers look small compared to towers but because they are active have bass response that are comparable to a lot of towers. You could put a system together like this using the Yamaha processor, the HS sub and in a space that big the HS5's would work fine for less than $5K all in and you already know how it sounds. When I built my system I had the bed channels first. Then I added two height speakers in front. A few months later the addtional two height speakers in back. Eventually I add the VOG above. I was enjoying my system all the while I was adding immersive to it, you don't need to go all in at once. thanks a LOT for posting these pics. 

I’m glad you enjoyed them. As I recall (and you can see in the first picture), the Smyths used two active speakers side by side for the Center channel. This may be what they believe works best for emphasizing dialogue in video set ups.

 

Have you had a chance to hear Bernie Dresel’s “Live’N’Bernin” Blu Ray in Auro3D? It’s said to sound fantastic.

[esimms86]

59 minutes ago, Mordikai said:

I've not heard the 3D Smyth Realizer demo but I have heard the regular stereo one a couple years ago at Burning Amp and it was pretty amazing!

I’m not sure if you heard the A8 or the newer (not yet released) A16 model. I can assure you, the multichannel set up is equally incredible sounding.

[witchdoctor]

10 minutes ago, esimms86 said:

I’m glad you enjoyed them. As I recall (and you can see in the first picture), the Smyths used two active speakers side by side for the Center channel. This may be what they believe works best for emphasizing dialogue in video set ups.

 

Have you had a chance to hear Bernie Dresel’s “Live’N’Bernin” Blu Ray in Auro3D? It’s said to sound fantastic.

No, I'll order it today, thanks.

[Mordikai]

Must have been the A8 as this was 3 years ago.

[witchdoctor]

7 minutes ago, esimms86 said:

I’m not sure if you heard the A8 or the newer (not yet released) A16 model. I can assure you, the multichannel set up is equally incredible sounding.

The fact that you can replicate that system at home for such a reasonable price is equally incredible. If I want two channel I can just push a button on my remote but it is nice to be able to do both. The active speakers make a nice difference too and saves on space and expense as you don't have to buy a dedicated amp.

[Indydan]

On 10/20/2017 at 9:14 AM, witchdoctor said:

So if you want SOA on a low budget/ high waf system I hope you have enough info to get started. These setups will blow away a 2 channel system of up to $50K for movies and most music reproduction. 
 

 

Wow, I am speechless. But not in a good way... 

 

Have you actually compared those dollar store speakers to a $50k system? 

[Mordikai]

18 minutes ago, Indydan said:

 

Wow, I am speechless. But not in a good way... 

 

Have you actually compared those dollar store speakers to a $50k system? 

Dude- it's obviously hyperbole. He likes 3D audio and the speakers he picked are perfectly fine for that. In a two channel setup you could certainly come up with better speakers. It's apples and oranges. 

[GUTB]

I want SQ, and I centainly would also like to get more immersion. Getting high-quality amplification into 5-7 speaker seems like a very high cost barrier tough. In my listening room I’d have to resort to wall-mounts for the rear channels, which might be optimal for an ATMOS style setup I guess.

 

But...does SQ matter at all in this setup? If all the rear channels are for spacial information I guess it doesn’t matter, but does it really not matter? Will any low end active speaker do?

[witchdoctor]

25 minutes ago, GUTB said:

I want SQ, and I centainly would also like to get more immersion. Getting high-quality amplification into 5-7 speaker seems like a very high cost barrier tough. In my listening room I’d have to resort to wall-mounts for the rear channels, which might be optimal for an ATMOS style setup I guess.

 

But...does SQ matter at all in this setup? If all the rear channels are for spacial information I guess it doesn’t matter, but does it really not matter? Will any low end active speaker do?

Wall mounts will work just make sure you can swivel and tilt the speakers. I hear Emotiva and Outlaw offer pretty good value for multichannel amps. I like Carver amps in the used market. 
The question about SQ is a good one. Immersion does amazing things with a soundstage because it can extend it from floor to ceiling with precision. I was watching James taylor and Carol King at the Trobador on Qello last night and the sense of beeing in the club is uncanny, you are there. As for rear channels in my auro 3d setup I can almost never localize which speaker a sound came from, it just blends together pretty seemlessly. In movies its different as a thunderstorm is defientely overhead but all around you rather than popping out from the speakers. I don't think you would need to buy a low end active speaker when there are so many good ones for reasonable prices so no, I don't think they would do. 

I think that Yamaha setup would be amazing. The active HS8's are $350 a piece and the HS5's around $200 a piece. The HS subwoofer is $400. You could get 5 HS8's for bed channels = $1,750. 4 HS5's for height channels= $800 plus the sub $400. That's $3000 for speakers plus amps are included and the Yamaha top of the line processor is $1750 at accessories4less.com. You would have $250 left for speaker brackets and a kick ass immersive system for around $5000! 

[witchdoctor]

The Yammie 5100 pre/pro review:

 

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5100-surround-processor-review

 

The HS8 review, don't wall mount them though:

http://avproductreviews.com/yamaha-hs8-studio-monitor-review

 

The HS5 review. These are perfectly biamped with for the transducers by the engineer at $176 a piece:

 

http://www.recordingexpert.net/yamaha-powered-hs5-studio-monitor-review/