What are my rights here in Ontario canada ? ​​​​​​​

[PeterSt]

34 minutes ago, RoseKloud666 said:

But i need to ask you , maybe i did not mention this , i was told that i over drove the speakers , i damaged the speakers while listening to music , never heard it occur ,

 

In my opinion it can very well happen (have happened) that you don't notice anything of it, if only you smelled something (from the amp, not the speakers) so it really went bad in there.

 

36 minutes ago, RoseKloud666 said:

turned amp on hours later , and then the damaged speakers damaged my amp

 

Maybe it is a bit far-sought (from me) but if the amp "just" made it during the playback session and is switched on the next day (all cold) there will be this extra boost of current required and that could kill the amp. Speakers are not related in this scenario.

 

I suppose it did not happen like this for real ? I mean, when did the amp stop working ? during playing music ?

Point is : this scenario I just wrote is too coincidental to be true for the two times it happend. So I would not dig that scenario for that reason.

Fact seems to be that something is slowly killing "it" instead of at once. This should also be the "reason" for fuses not breaking.

 

It seems that there's more going on than an incapable amp.

I hope I don't sound like your dealer !

 

On another note, it is quite easy to imply this damage by doing something odd at the input side of the amp, hence output of the source (like preamp or DAC) and a high current emerging via the backdoor. But then you should recognize something of this ... (like changing interlinks)

[GUTB]

28 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

That amp will be rated at a certain Wattage. In layman's terms this is because of the "power" it provides, and/but merely because of the heat dissipation it can handle ("do"). This latter is 100% related to the impedance of the loudspeaker and this impedance varies. It varies per frequency (you could say it depends on the music) and it is also a reactance to the amp itself. Say that both talk to each other.

 

That impedance can be looked at as a resistance. This resistance applies between the two poles of the loudspeaker (cable).

If your speaker is rated at 4 Ohms, it means that the resistance between the two poles should not dive under 4 Ohms.

If it is rated at 8 Ohms - same story but then for 8.

 

The amp has such a rating just the same, although this will be more vague. If it is rated as 400W into 8 Ohms, and nothing else, no speakers should be connected with 4 Ohm impedance. Still the amp may be able to "do" this. But now notice that the 4 ohms is less resistance than 8 ohms, and the resistance determines the heat (dissipation required) in the amp.

Or :

When you play "strange" music with relatively many and high frequencies, the loudspeaker may drop to a resistance (impedance) of 2 Ohms. Or 1 Ohm. Or less.

 

If that supplier tells you that shortcut occurred, he actually means (and hopefully understands himself) that the resistance went too low. So 0 Ohms is a real shortcut, but 1 Ohm is that just the same for an amp which can only dissipate heat for the power it delivers into 4 Ohms resistance.

 

Stupidly the lesser (powered) amp may easily deal with the same speaker; if it can dissipate heat better, or just delivers less power so it is not required to dissipate much heat (and you have softer playing music).

 

So the dealer can be right ...

 

Maybe this helps you with a different (more positive) vision ?

Regards,

Peter

 

Haha, sorry you don’t make any sense

 

Amps see speakers as a load — the lower the speaker’s resistance, the more the speaker will demand from the amp. Here is an example of a random Dynaudio impedance curve:

 

This Emit M10 is rated for 6 Omhs but it dips below that in a few places, and spends most of its time way above that. A properly designed amp should never burn out over this kind of periodic dip in impedance. As I said I bet your others amps will be just fine.

 

Consider Modwright on the used market. Oddesy is probably the cheapest of the boutique builders. Oh, the new Schiit monoblocks (Vidar?) are competitive. You can pick up a huge 600W Accuphase clone from AliExpress for around $3K. Oh, I just remembered Musical Paradise, Canada-based seller of China-based hi-fi for really cheap.

[RoseKloud666]

6 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Haha, sorry you don’t make any sense

 

Amps see speakers as a load — the lower the speaker’s resistance, the more the speaker will demand from the amp. Here is an example of a random Dynaudio impedance curve:

 

This Emit M10 is rated for 6 Omhs but it dips below that in a few places, and spends most of its time way above that. A properly designed amp should never burn out over this kind of periodic dip in impedance. As I said I bet your others amps will be just fine.

 

Consider Modwright on the used market. Oddesy is probably the cheapest of the boutique builders. Oh, the new Schiit monoblocks (Vidar?) are competitive. You can pick up a huge 600W Accuphase clone from AliExpress for around $3K. Oh, I just remembered Musical Paradise, Canada-based seller of China-based hi-fi for really cheap.

Thank you 

I will check those names out All new to me

Names ive considered for at least 250 w RMS are Hegel (i shoulda got the H300 when it was still available.Im interested if a reputable person or dealer still has one for sale) , bryston , Krell , and a new name to me is Classe . Is Classe in same league as these others?

In all my searches at 250W all those are out of my bank roll , unless i can find a good used one from a reputable source 

Are there any reputable dealers in Ont or even Canada who carry hi end used like this ?

Does Hegel have authorized service in Canada or Ontario ? 

I may even go USA if they are reputable enough and can do warranty in the cold north 

One other thing , i keep hearing about how this or that is possible , but doesnt stand to much reason or even likely 

Is that an out for a dealer who made a claim about damage , but cant prove it?

Is there some level of reasonable doubt either myself or the dealer should adhere to ?

 

Thanks again

[PeterSt]

15 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Amps see speakers as a load — the lower the speaker’s resistance, the more the speaker will demand from the amp.

 

Apparently you have the idea I wasn't telling that ? 

What I did was making it practical and turned it into the net effect : heat (assumed the power supply can handle all).

[PeterSt]

18 minutes ago, GUTB said:

This Emit M10 is rated for 6 Omhs but it dips below that in a few places, and spends most of its time way above that. A properly designed amp should never burn out over this kind of periodic dip in impedance. As I said I bet your others amps will be just fine.

 

And another thought :

"Logically" (ahum) we see the audio band only :

 

19 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

But there's a whole world beyond that. And depending on the source, there may be high frequency distortion at fair levels. And in that area the impedance may drop more than we see here. Btw, I have no idea whether at these really higher frequencies a lower impedance can exist for real. But that assumed :

All it would require is a bandwidth of the amp which allows these high (distortion) frequencies to be amplified, so the speaker reacts with a too low impedance.

[Norton]

To get back on topic.  You bought a (presumably)  new $5k amp just a few months ago. It's failed twice already and you're being asked to foot the repair bill by the manufacturer.

 

Write to the manufacturer detailing the situation and asking them to provide you with a replacement unit or a full refund by a reasonable date you specify, noting the terms of any warranty provided by the manufacturer.

 

if still no joy simply get a lawyer to write to them and post feedback on various sites.

 

I don"t know about Canada but in the UK goods  have to be fit for the purpose intended regardless of the terms of the manufacturer warranty offered.  For example, if a $5k amp with a 6 month warranty failed after 7 months, a U.K. court would likely rule in your favour as 7 months isn't a reasonable service life for a $5k product.  There are similar provisions concerning whether a manufacturer is expected to replace rather than offer to repair a product. I find it hard to believe that similar law doesn't exist in Canada.  Re your opening question,  better to get some expert  Canadian consumer advice rather than going down the chart-posting rabbit hole of a CA thread....

 

The notion that your (mainstream) speakers somehow damaged the amp just sounds like bullsh** to me.  

 

 

 

 

[lucretius]

5 hours ago, Norton said:

Write to the manufacturer detailing the situation and asking them to provide you with a replacement unit or a full refund by a reasonable date you specify, noting the terms of any warranty provided by the manufacturer.

 

This will help with the document trail, should the OP decide later to go to small claims court.  (So here it is key to keep it in writing.)

 

5 hours ago, Norton said:

if still no joy simply get a lawyer to write to them and post feedback on various sites.

 

The OP is currently looking at $700.00 out-of-pocket.  The expense of a lawyer doesn't appear feasible.

 

5 hours ago, Norton said:

I don"t know about Canada but in the UK goods  have to be fit for the purpose intended regardless of the terms of the manufacturer warranty offered

 

This is also the law in Canada.

[lucretius]

From the little information I see here, I'd say it's likely that the amp in question is poorly designed. I would take the vendor's offer of a replacement amp, so long as it's from a different and respected manufacturer.  Post your experience on websites like Canuck audio mart and do name names.  Consider it a learning experience.

[Indydan]

11 hours ago, RoseKloud666 said:

In mean time can i please ask for any reputable dealers , preferred in Ont ( or canada )

who deal in Hegal (Im also open to other equally good amps of similar quality)

Im particularly interested in Hegel 300 , but its discontinued , yet very affordable on Ie canuck audio mart

Private sellers at that price point concern me tho 

I cant picture sticking with this present amp as all confidence has expired , a good reputable dealer ,esp. in Hegel used gear would be pleasing 

Im in need of 250W RMS or more And when i speak of Hegel , the quality im in for is obvious 

Thanks 

 

 

RoseKloud, can you tell us which model of Dynaudio speakers you have? Are they difficult to drive? 

 

I don't mean to question your needs, but do you really need 250 watts? Unless your speakers are very difficult to drive, you have a huge room, and you listen at extremely high volume levels, I don't understand why anyone would need this kind of power.

 

I have also found through experience, that watts are not always a good indicator of an amplifier's true power and ability to drive speakers. I once had a NAD 375 BEE integrated amp (worse thing I ever bought reliability wise...). It weighed a heavy 34 pounds, and had 150 watts per channel. When I got tired of it breaking down, I bought a tiny 12 pound Naim 5i V2, 50 watt per channel integrated. Back then I had big Paradigm Studio 100 V5 tower speakers. Not only is the tiny Naim more musical, fun and refined than the NAD, it plays easily as loud, has more bass, slam and guts. It beats the NAD easily. You would think the Naim was the 150 watt model.

 

For about 3800$ canadian, you could get a Naim XS2 integrated rated at 70 watts. I would be surprised if it could not properly drive your speakers. If you look at its internals, it has a very large and high quality transformer and caps. Naim puts a lot of emphasis on the power supply. 

 

[RoseKloud666]

@Indydan

Thank you 

Dynaudio focus 340s and  my speakers 250 w 4 ohm

Im thinking being use to the power i had that satisfied me , less power , all else being equal , wont satisfy me

I also picture a scenario where i may get carried away and being un satisfied may crank the dial too high on a 150 W amp too much and clip(?If thats the word) my speakers
 

Im still taking in all the kind replies here and will respond asap , my grand kids are about to show up so things will get busy

 

Thank you all
 

[Indydan]

Just to let you know, a Montreal dealer is selling a floor model demo of the Hegel 300 for 3600$ canadian. I have dealt with this dealer and he is very courteous and reliable.

 

https://www.codellaudio.com/en/pre-owned

[Indydan]

5 minutes ago, RoseKloud666 said:

@Indydan

Thank you 

Dynaudio focus 340s and  my speakers 250 w 4 ohm

Im thinking being use to the power i had that satisfied me , less power , all else being equal , wont satisfy me

I also picture a scenario where i may get carried away and being un satisfied may crank the dial too high on a 150 W amp too much and clip(?If thats the word) my speakers
 

Im still taking in all the kind replies here and will respond asap , my grand kids are about to show up so things will get busy

 

Thank you all
 

 

Nice speakers! They shouldn't be that difficult to drive at 87db. I know that from experience, Naim can easily drive 4 ohm speakers. My Paradigm Studio 100s went down to 4 ohms, and they were easily driven by my Naim 5i.

 

The dealer selling the demo Hegel 300 is also selling a Naim Supernait 1 at 80 watts for 2700$. He is also a Dynaudio dealer. He could certainly tell you what matches well with your speakers. If you speak to Tod or Isadore, they are both very knowledgeable and helpful. 

[RoseKloud666]

15 minutes ago, Indydan said:

Just to let you know, a Montreal dealer is selling a floor model demo of the Hegel 300 for 3600$ canadian. I have dealt with this dealer and he is very courteous and reliable.

 

https://www.codellaudio.com/en/pre-owned

Thanks mate

 

It sold 

Man they go fast

Id buy a new one if possible

 

[RoseKloud666]

PS

 

Some bad news for me , i found the insert sheet for my amp , its a 90 day warranty ,tho dealer told me its a 2 year warranty . i remember the conversation specifically because i spoke concern for such a wee warranty compared to Bryston , and was told the smaller 2 year warranty was no concern because he/amp builder do not hide behind warranties (seems thats not true).

 

Examples of misuse in warranty is defective speakers . Ie speakers which require more power than the amp can supply ( not even close to the case here ) ,speakers that have extreme phase angle of impedance and low impedance.

 

On my side is that the 1st defect was within 90 days 

 

Im feeling i may have took a shining here

[GUTB]

5 minutes ago, RoseKloud666 said:

PS

 

Some bad news for me , i found the insert sheet for my amp , its a 90 day warranty ,tho dealer told me its a 2 year warranty . i remember the conversation specifically because i spoke concern for such a wee warranty compared to Bryston , and was told the smaller 2 year warranty was no concern because he/amp builder do not hide behind warranties (seems thats not true).

 

Examples of misuse in warranty is defective speakers . Ie speakers which require more power than the amp can supply ( not even close to the case here ) ,speakers that have extreme phase angle of impedance and low impedance.

 

On my side is that the 1st defect was within 90 days 

 

Im feeling i may have took a shining here

 

Contracts don't matter in court if they fall below the acceptable norms. For example, if the industry standard is several years warranty he wouldn't be able to hide behind a 90 day warranty clause because you reasonably expect a certain warranty level. Expectations matter more in court than what's on paper. Likewise, if any regular amp can handle your speakers, but his can't, than that is a design defect and he can't hide behind text in a contract to defeat reasonable expectations of quality.

 

90 days on a $5k product...unacceptable. It should be 30 days for no-questions-asked full refund, and at least 2 years warranty. Classe has 30 day full return and 5 year warranty.  5 years is a pretty standard warranty. 

 

I bought a Schiit Ragnarok last year, and it managed to blow soon after turning it on. I tried to replace the fuse, and it blew again immediately. Schiit straight up replaced it and paid for all shipping, no questions asked, just serviced me properly.

[Tony Lauck]

11 hours ago, RoseKloud666 said:

Thank you

Ill admit im still considering that intelligent reply

But i need to ask you , maybe i did not mention this , i was told that i over drove the speakers , i damaged the speakers while listening to music , never heard it occur , turned amp on hours later , and then the damaged speakers damaged my amp , but consider the speakers still work fine 

Can that be explained ?

Thanks mate

 

You could run the amplifier at a grossly incorrect AC line voltage and damage it.   You could feed it a high input voltage caused by a defective preamplifier.  You could connect the output terminals to a high voltage power source.  However, if you just connect the amplifier outputs to a passive device such as a speaker and this destroys the amplifier, this is an indication of an incompetently designed product.  Whether you are legally entitled to warranty coverage is a separate issue, and would depend on the exact wording of your warranty agreement, which might disclaim usage under certain loading conditions.

[Indydan]

1 hour ago, RoseKloud666 said:

PS

 

Some bad news for me , i found the insert sheet for my amp , its a 90 day warranty ,tho dealer told me its a 2 year warranty . i remember the conversation specifically because i spoke concern for such a wee warranty compared to Bryston , and was told the smaller 2 year warranty was no concern because he/amp builder do not hide behind warranties (seems thats not true).

 

Examples of misuse in warranty is defective speakers . Ie speakers which require more power than the amp can supply ( not even close to the case here ) ,speakers that have extreme phase angle of impedance and low impedance.

 

On my side is that the 1st defect was within 90 days 

 

Im feeling i may have took a shining here

 

I feel bad for you. This dealer and amp builder seems unethical. I hope you find a satisfactory way out of this. If not, it would be a service to audiophiles if you named this dealer. 

 

I have a close relationship with a dealer here in Montreal (not the one who had the Hegel amp). He sells Ayre, Audio research, Naim, Mcintosh, Boulder, Nagra, etc. I have been a customer there for nearly 15 years. I usually get a good discount on the list price of gear. I know the salesman well, and I trust them. They have customers all over the world, and shipping gear is not a problem for them. If you're interested, I could put you in contact with someone there, and maybe they could find a good amp for you in your price range. 

[NOMBEDES]

1.  tell the thief you will be posting his name and address on this fourm as some one to avoid. 

 

2. get a full refund.

[RoseKloud666]

Thank you everyone 

@Indydan

Yes i would like that name please 

Isodore who you mentioned was a decent hook up and knowledegable 

The desired Hegel was gone tho , im thinking the 70 W Naim wont satisfy me coming from the power i had tho . I will still keep in touch with him , as he does regularly carry used gear and is a dealer .

But your comment on your Naim makes me think im overstating wattage ?

Id like to understand more about how i may not miss the 300+ W (i couldnt use over 250 as Dyns are 250W) so we ll say 250 watts i had , to move to the naim 70 W amp ,seems a huge drop  Or the Hegel 160 (which dealer wants to do a straight trade with  , seems a hose job) at 150 W

Am i not going to miss my 250W +   to move to a Hegel 160W or even lower to a Naim 70 W ? (Thanks for patience)

 

Im feeling if i got my hands on a H300 i would be pleasured

 

 

@NOMBEDES 

No doubt that if this is not settled in a satisfactory manner i will reveal all 

I found his facebook ( tho im sure he can delete posts there ) , he advertises on canuck and maybe audiogon. I wont be rude , just blunt honesty 

 

I hope they allow that 

@GUTB

 

Thats some enlightening facts thank you 

 

@Norton

 

Thank you , alot of our laws are similary to UK , i hope its same call here 

 

 

[GregWormald]

Hmmmm.

The offer of a substitute amp rather than fixing yours for the second time tells me that the dealer doesn't think your amp (his product!) will survive the Dynaudio speakers at 4 ohms.

 

Those speakers don't NEED 250 watts, although they can use that much for very loud transients if played very loud. What they really need is HIGH CURRENT capability and the ability for the amp to work at 4 ohms nominal impedance. This probably means sometimes the impedance will be lower than 4 ohms and this can stress some amplifiers.

 

The Hegel 160 is rated at 250 watts into 4 ohms and may well cope with the speakers--why not ask a reputable dealer or Hegel themselves?

 

The list price of the Hegel is 3000 Euro, I don't know the $Can prices, but it doesn't sound too far off what you've already paid--and at least (if it is suitable), then it is likely to be reliable. And Hegel are represented in Ontario.

 

Name and shame only AFTER you have a deal.

 

Greg

 

 

[jcbenten]

If the speakers are rated at 250 W @ 4 ohms, that is likely the Maximum and they will do fine with less.  What is the rating of the amp for the entire range (20-20K hz)?  Remember that the standard ratings are at 8 ohm...a beefy power supply is required to double the watts into half the ohms.  Generic/low-fi receivers cannot and are usually rated at a single frequency at 6 ohms in an attempt to mislead with a "big" number.

 

Do not underestimate the Naim.  More than likely it is 70 watts into 8 ohms and 140 watts into 4 ohms.  Outstanding gear and will likely sound bigger than the rating.

[RoseKloud666]

@GregWormald

Thanks mate

Esp thanks for helping me get a bit more understanding on wattage and that i dont necessarily need 250W for top performance on 250W speakers

It seems the H 160 may well power my Dyns enough , but still an unfair trade , 5k for 3200.00 ,and its not my failed product

  
"The offer of a substitute amp rather than fixing yours "

No they fixed mine , a 700.00 repair without my authorization tho

I was naive enough to expect the same friendly OTT service as when i went into the store with cash in hand 

Man was i shown a surprise 

I can either pay the repair bill , and get back a product i have lost confidence in , and cant stop wondering how many more 700.00 repairs will i need ,or accept the lesser amp H 160 , which is dropping quickly in price as the H 190 is due in a few weeks , the H 160 dropped to 3200.00 Canadian last i checked

So my position is i spent 5k on an amp , and after being inconvenienced to the tune of likely a month in total , am offered a 3200.00 amp . 

I ve lost my passion(music)  for about 1 month and now pay for it to add insult to injury 

I dont even know whats in that amp box anymore at this point Trust blown 

So as i summarize it this way , not to sound aggressive 

i buy a 5k product , it fails 2xs in 1 to  2 months 

I return it and am confronted not with any fair exchange or refund , but expected to take a large cut(cost to me) because his product failed 

Im losing 1800.00 on a failed product in only a few months 

I honestly cant understand it any other way 

 

 

[Indydan]

1 hour ago, RoseKloud666 said:

Thank you everyone 

@Indydan

Yes i would like that name please 

Isodore who you mentioned was a decent hook up and knowledegable 

The desired Hegel was gone tho , im thinking the 70 W Naim wont satisfy me coming from the power i had tho . I will still keep in touch with him , as he does regularly carry used gear and is a dealer .

But your comment on your Naim makes me think im overstating wattage ?

Id like to understand more about how i may not miss the 300+ W (i couldnt use over 250 as Dyns are 250W) so we ll say 250 watts i had , to move to the naim 70 W amp ,seems a huge drop  Or the Hegel 160 (which dealer wants to do a straight trade with  , seems a hose job) at 150 W

Am i not going to miss my 250W +   to move to a Hegel 160W or even lower to a Naim 70 W ? (Thanks for patience)

 

Im feeling if i got my hands on a H300 i would be pleasured

 

 

@NOMBEDES 

No doubt that if this is not settled in a satisfactory manner i will reveal all 

I found his facebook ( tho im sure he can delete posts there ) , he advertises on canuck and maybe audiogon. I wont be rude , just blunt honesty 

 

I hope they allow that 

@GUTB

 

Thats some enlightening facts thank you 

 

@Norton

 

Thank you , alot of our laws are similary to UK , i hope its same call here 

 

 

 

It is like Greg wrote,  high current capability is very important, more so than watts. The Naims are very good at driving 4 ohm loads because of their high quality power supplies. I will send you a PM in a few minutes with the contact info of my dealer. You can ask him about Naim and other gear with your speakers.

[RoseKloud666]

@jcbenten

 

Thank you 

"what is the rating of the amp for the entire range (20-20K hz)? "

 

Its the Hegel 160 , i looked and dont evidence those specs 

Im slowly understanding that lesser wattage than the speakers rating doesnt mean under powering my speakers , or losing punch/power/volume (Am i correct so far?)

 

Even that 70 watts will satisfactorily power my 250W speakers doesnt make sense to me , but somehow 70W can satisfy 250W Dyns

Thanks to all

 

 

[RoseKloud666]

@Indydan

Thanks Dan 

 

Yes @ GregWormald explained that well

 

Cheers Greg

 

You say "high current capability"

So how do i determine the high current capability in a speaker that in watts appears less powerful?

Cheers