What are my rights here in Ontario canada ? ​​​​​​​

[RoseKloud666]

What are my rights here  in Ontario canada ? 

I ve had this amp i paid 5k for , since mid spring 2017

 

It has popped 2xs already 

 

I sent in for diagnosis Im told it was a dead short , my dynaudios were id as the likely culprits 

 

The dyns have been thoroughly tested and are working fine , so no dead short 

The problem begins with the dealer now who has presented me with a 700.00 repair bill , while telling me he is being completely fair with me , since this cost him parts and labour (Im still very well within my warranty)  He is also the builder company   of this amp

 

The dealer is willing to absorb that cost , if i trade down to a lesser amp , a 1k dollar loss , and a lesser amp for me

The amp would be  way under poweing my speakers btw which can never be a good move 

 

I wanted to go Bryston  originally for the no hassle 20 year warranty , as i questioned this mere 2 year warranty on a 5k amp , and was assured he does not hide behind warranties ,and that i would never have an issue 

 

This entire scene smells fishy to me

 

Originally there was no other amp he could sell me when i 1st called saying ive lost confidence in this product , i asked him to advise me on another comparable amp and now suddenly up pops another lesser amp , at a loss to me 

 

I never authorized such a expensive repair , and would have refused it if i would have been given the chance (And i still feel im within my warranty since ive eliminated what i was told was the culprit).

 

Can this dealer simply hold my property hostage , of which i ve already lost confidence in 

 

Even if i pay  the 700.00 I will never trust this wont be a continuing problem 

 

Please advise 

 

Thanks

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, RoseKloud666 said:

What are my rights here  in Ontario canada ? 

I ve had this amp i paid 5k for , since mid spring 2017

 

It has popped 2xs already 

 

I sent in for diagnosis Im told it was a dead short , my dynaudios were id as the likely culprits 

 

The dyns have been thoroughly tested and are working fine , so no dead short 

The problem begins with the dealer now who has presented me with a 700.00 repair bill , while telling me he is being completely fair with me , since this cost him parts and labour (Im still very well within my warranty)  He is also the builder company   of this amp

 

The dealer is willing to absorb that cost , if i trade down to a lesser amp , a 1k dollar loss , and a lesser amp for me

The amp would be  way under poweing my speakers btw which can never be a good move 

 

I wanted to go Bryston  originally for the no hassle 20 year warranty , as i questioned this mere 2 year warranty on a 5k amp , and was assured he does not hide behind warranties ,and that i would never have an issue 

 

This entire scene smells fishy to me

 

Originally there was no other amp he could sell me when i 1st called saying ive lost confidence in this product , i asked him to advise me on another comparable amp and now suddenly up pops another lesser amp , at a loss to me 

 

I never authorized such a expensive repair , and would have refused it if i would have been given the chance (And i still feel im within my warranty since ive eliminated what i was told was the culprit).

 

Can this dealer simply hold my property hostage , of which i ve already lost confidence in 

 

Even if i pay  the 700.00 I will never trust this wont be a continuing problem 

 

Please advise 

 

Thanks

 

I don't know what Ontario Law is, but this doesn't just smell fishy, it IS fishy. First thing to do is look through all the paperwork that came with this amp when you got it (you did keep it all, did you not?). Look for the warranty info. Read the warranty thoroughly. It should say that the amp is guaranteed to be free of defects in both parts and workmanship for some period of time (you say it's 2 years). If the warranty is for 2 years, and you bought the amp in 2017, then it's still in warranty, and the manufacturer is obligated to repair or replace the unit at no cost to you as long as that course of action is clearly stipulated in the warranty paperwork that came with the unit.  If you find that have fulfilled all of your warranty responsibilities (such as filling-out and mailing the enclosed warranty card [if any]). Then call the manufacturer and threaten him with going to the Better Business Bureau and complaining (I believe that Canada has those). If your local newspaper or broadcast media has a consumer help line or column, threaten the manufacturer with that as well. In my experience, most high-end equipment makers are quite small and can't afford any negative publicity. Most honest companies will bend-over backwards to correct a problem when threatened that way. If that doesn't work, and you are sure that you are legally in the clear with your warranty demands, then threaten a lawsuit. But if you are wrong about what your rights are in this case, and don't really know where you stand, legally (believe me, the manufacturer knows his!) don't play this last card, as it could backfire. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS THOROUGHLY before threatening any legal action!

 

 

[RoseKloud666]

Nice fast reply

Thank you ,

 

im likely not sleeping tonight

 

Music is my 1 escape in life , and since retiring ( semi , i may have to go back at this rate) Ill play music 12 to 16 hours a day , and my dealer knows this .It may also be a desperation(ME) card he knows will rush me 

My amp is a custom build (small Canadian company , i dont wish to mention its name until im 100% certain on everything . Im a fool , i felt over last near 2 years we had established a friendship , man im embarrassed) .

I did not get a receipt as it was a cash deal , pay no taxes ( likely illegal for him to do) . But i do believe i paid a portion on a credit card , a small remaining amount , so that may evidence something 

May 2017 sounds about right 

 

i dont think he can deny i bought it from him , i got a ride there and back , so there is a witness , and several texts between us also 

The warranty is 2 years , so Im well within the warranty period , the issue is Im told its a dead short (From Dynaudios) that caused the dead short , then im told its not a warranty claim anymore 

How was that decided/proven you may ask , well i ve not received that answer 

But heres the issue , they speakers have been tested thoroughly , and no dead short . Speakers are running now , on a much cheaper , and unsatisfying amp 

I would love to hear more input and appreciate all I have so far

 

 

[RoseKloud666]

PS

 

The trade amp i was offered was the hegel 160 , not near enough power for me

But since he has hegel connections , i would love to own the H 300 , the 360 has too many extras i donot need so 300 looks perfect . i left him a message asking for that one , but no reply 

I would pay the difference just to get rid of this situation

 

Does hegel make the H 300 anymore ?

 

i seen one for 3200.00 used , but it was gone as soon as i came back to re read the ad 

[zackthedog]

Does the dealer have a Facebook page?  In my experience, nothing gets action faster than a negative post to a company's Facebook page.

[RoseKloud666]

Unfortunately no

No social media atall

He is a member of canuck audio mart and maybe audiogon tho

[GUTB]

Canada does not favor the consumer, sorry. If the guy isn't trash he should accept a return at a loss as a sign of good faith. If he doesn't, you have two options:

 

1. Swallow it, sell at a loss and move on. Canadian hi-fi manufacturers are ripoff artists, so consider high end Chinese copies (Accuphase, Goldmund, etc) if you want to save money. It's not fair, but if it was me I might just do that because listening is a key part of my lifestyle and in the end it's about me and not anyone else.

 

2. Keep it, and work on saving up for a new amp while your small claims procedure works its way through the process. I'm pretty sure the court doesn't care if you bought it grey market / under the table.

 

Don't bother seeking support from your fellow Canadians, you will receive none. The BBB does nothing. Consider American manufacturers from whom you will receive fair dealing at non-ripoff prices.

[lucretius]

Start here:

 

https://www.ontario.ca/page/consumer-protection-ontario

 

And don't forget to report the issue here (at least for the benefit of others): 

 

https://www.bbb.org/en/ca/

[RoseKloud666]

@GUTB

Damn that blows mate 

Are you speaking as a fellow canuck , thats how you know this ?

I ve always had great luck buying here , this may be my 1st bad rip

I ve always had sellers tripping over them selves to please me

I would never be satisfied with a stereo from best buy , but i buy all my PC gear , TVs etc there , and their return policy is anti business its so damn good

I shoulda waited a year for more cash and gone Bryston i heard they do no questions or blame returns/repairs

[RoseKloud666]

Thank you all

[GUTB]

1 minute ago, RoseKloud666 said:

@GUTB

Damn that blows mate 

Are you speaking as a fellow canuck , thats how you know this ?

I ve always had great luck buying here , this may be my 1st bad rip

I ve always had sellers tripping over them selves to please me

I would never be satisfied with a stereo from best buy , but i buy all my PC gear , TVs etc there , and their return policy is anti business its so damn good

I shoulda waited a year for more cash and gone Bryston i heard they do no questions or blame returns/repairs

 

Well, yes I'm Canadian, but currently residing in the US. You have different classes of Canadian -- the international government workers who live for their mortgage, weddings and visiting their home countries and don't care about anything else, and the rural types who love to rip you off so they don't have to drum up more business than they have to, and I bet your amp maker is from this set. Screwing you on repairs because he thinks he can blame it on something else sounds like that kind of attitude.

 

Canadian manufacturers love to price  their products for an affluent American consumer base, and chow down on the dollar difference instead of offering a competitive product for less -- typical Canadian attitude. But, since they sell to Americans the Classes and Brystons are probably forced to deal fairly with you.

 

If he seriously won't deal in good faith with you, you can destroy him on Audio Mart and Audiogon forums. Sellers who don't deal in good faith have no place in our hobby.

[RoseKloud666]

Thank you fellow canuck

 

Us canuckleheads gotta stick together

I see he has  FB page , so that will also be a possibility once i am certain

But cant he just delete my post there ?

He certainly cannot on canuck audio mart 

I would not use foul banable language , i would just tell my story and present facts

I hope thats allowed there

 

Cheers

[RoseKloud666]

PS 

Would nt it be simple good customer satisfying service to satisfy the customer still under warranty , just a few months in , with 2 blow ups ,even if it was his fault , just this once , to satisfy the customer ?

 

I mean 2 blow ups in a month ( or slightly more) on a 5k amp

I mean what good is a warranty when its left to the sellers discretion to be able to simply shift the blame as he sees fit

Dynaudio says my speakers are A ok , no dead short , dealer says it was

So i pay 700.00 this time (if its not my dyns , its a problem amp and will likely happen again) , and if theres a next time this just continues 

So can the dealer blame it on something thats proven false ?

Is that not a card in my favour ?

PS i think he sells Dynaudios as well 

[RoseKloud666]

PS to all helping me here 

 I ve been running another , less expensive amp , an old Harmon Kardon tin can , for a few days now , zero issues

Does that evidence anything , ? Same speakers , cables etc ?

[GUTB]

It could very well be the speakers, like some sort of weird impedance issue, or dirty power, or whatever. It really doesn't matter, he SHOULD be willing to accept a loss for the sake of his reputation. I bet you a Bryston or a Classe wouldn't blow up. I bet the Hegel won't. If he doesn't want to deal with these repair issues, he should consider building a better product.

 

Unfortunately you have zero consumer protection. Taking small claims action is fairly inexpensive but it's still a pain in butt -- and you'll probably get back the repair costs at a bare minimum. Hopefully the guy just finally takes the loss and accepts a return, something he should have done by now anyway.

[lucretius]

3 hours ago, RoseKloud666 said:

Can this dealer simply hold my property hostage , of which i ve already lost confidence in 

 

What documentary evidence do you have that he is holding your property?

[GUTB]

3 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

What documentary evidence do you have that he is holding your property?

 

Haha, you're a Canadian aren't you?

[Indydan]

1 hour ago, RoseKloud666 said:

Unfortunately no

No social media atall

He is a member of canuck audio mart and maybe audiogon tho

I am sorry to hear about your situation. If you can, PM the name of the dealer and the product. I sometimes buy gear on Canuck audio mart, and would like to avoid this person. I won't reveal the information publicly.

He does sound dishonest. Selling gear for cash without providing a receipt! Shady business. Don't hesitate to out him on social media if he does not resolve this properly.

[RoseKloud666]

@ GUTB

Wow another canucklehead on here eh @ lucretius 

 

How did you know @ GUTB ?

 

@ lucretius 
Documentary evience ? Now you worried me . Im so paranoid on a 24 hour basis but i never thought of that angle

 

I have none , zero . Except some texts 

 

FFS now im really worried 

 

Im really running this over in my mind this is the picutre i paint (i have never been treated like this as a consumer . Companies always fall over themselves to help , except microsoft , but they never ripped me off)

 

I buy a 5k dollar product from this guy 

 

In about 4 months it badly fails 2xs , this within a month or a tad more 

 

On the 2nd repair its blamed on my speakers ( which are verified as not damaged ,and presently running another amplifier , a cheaper one , no limiter protection atall ) and im expected to swallow the cost of repair , or accept a 1k dollar loss , if i get a much cheaper/less powerful amp from him at 1 for one trade 

 

Add if i pay repair cost , im getting back an amp i have zero confidence in , this could be an endless cycle . i really just want out at this point with minimal loss if any 

 

So he is selling me another amp , so im still profiting his business , as he now has an amp worth 1k more than he paid for , and can now sell at another profit , and i still have to trust him to repair that amp if it faults

 

Since when would a reputable company , name any , that would have their product fail 2xs in such a short period , and charge you for returning it and still try to keep you as a customer , at the customers expense 

I ve returned so much stuff Ie best buy , to ma and pop computer stores after failures etc , full return , why should i lose eturning a faulty product 
 

My brain is really turning now 

 

This is exhausting and i appreciate all support here 

Cheers

[RoseKloud666]

In mean time can i please ask for any reputable dealers , preferred in Ont ( or canada )

who deal in Hegal (Im also open to other equally good amps of similar quality)

Im particularly interested in Hegel 300 , but its discontinued , yet very affordable on Ie canuck audio mart

Private sellers at that price point concern me tho 

I cant picture sticking with this present amp as all confidence has expired , a good reputable dealer ,esp. in Hegel used gear would be pleasing 

Im in need of 250W RMS or more And when i speak of Hegel , the quality im in for is obvious 

Thanks 

 

[PeterSt]

Hi - The shortcut as your dealer tried to talk you into, really can happen (can have happened). I will try to explain in a next post.

[RoseKloud666]

5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Hi - The shortcut as your dealer tried to talk you into, really can happen (can have happened). I will try to explain in a next post.

Thank you 

I will wait

[PeterSt]

That amp will be rated at a certain Wattage. In layman's terms this is because of the "power" it provides, and/but merely because of the heat dissipation it can handle ("do"). This latter is 100% related to the impedance of the loudspeaker and this impedance varies. It varies per frequency (you could say it depends on the music) and it is also a reactance to the amp itself. Say that both talk to each other.

 

That impedance can be looked at as a resistance. This resistance applies between the two poles of the loudspeaker (cable).

If your speaker is rated at 4 Ohms, it means that the resistance between the two poles should not dive under 4 Ohms.

If it is rated at 8 Ohms - same story but then for 8.

 

The amp has such a rating just the same, although this will be more vague. If it is rated as 400W into 8 Ohms, and nothing else, no speakers should be connected with 4 Ohm impedance. Still the amp may be able to "do" this. But now notice that the 4 ohms is less resistance than 8 ohms, and the resistance determines the heat (dissipation required) in the amp.

Or :

When you play "strange" music with relatively many and high frequencies, the loudspeaker may drop to a resistance (impedance) of 2 Ohms. Or 1 Ohm. Or less.

 

If that supplier tells you that shortcut occurred, he actually means (and hopefully understands himself) that the resistance went too low. So 0 Ohms is a real shortcut, but 1 Ohm is that just the same for an amp which can only dissipate heat for the power it delivers into 4 Ohms resistance.

 

Stupidly the lesser (powered) amp may easily deal with the same speaker; if it can dissipate heat better, or just delivers less power so it is not required to dissipate much heat (and you have softer playing music).

 

So the dealer can be right ...

 

Maybe this helps you with a different (more positive) vision ?

Regards,

Peter

[RoseKloud666]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

That amp will be rated at a certain Wattage. In layman's terms this is because of the "power" it provides, and/but merely because of the heat dissipation it can handle ("do"). This latter is 100% related to the impedance of the loudspeaker and this impedance varies. It varies per frequency (you could say it depends on the music) and it is also a reactance to the amp itself. Say that both talk to each other.

 

That impedance can be looked at as a resistance. This resistance applies between the two poles of the loudspeaker (cable).

If your speaker is rated at 4 Ohms, it means that the resistance between the two poles should not dive under 4 Ohms.

If it is rated at 8 Ohms - same story but then for 8.

 

The amp has such a rating just the same, although this will be more vague. If it is rated as 400W into 8 Ohms, and nothing else, no speakers should be connected with 4 Ohm impedance. Still the amp may be able to "do" this. But now notice that the 4 ohms is less resistance than 8 ohms, and the resistance determines the heat (dissipation required) in the amp.

Or :

When you play "strange" music with relatively many and high frequencies, the loudspeaker may drop to a resistance (impedance) of 2 Ohms. Or 1 Ohm. Or less.

 

If that supplier tells you that shortcut occurred, he actually means (and hopefully understands himself) that the resistance went too low. So 0 Ohms is a real shortcut, but 1 Ohm is that just the same for an amp which can only dissipate heat for the power it delivers into 4 Ohms resistance.

 

Stupidly the lesser (powered) amp may easily deal with the same speaker; if it can dissipate heat better, or just delivers less power so it is not required to dissipate much heat (and you have softer playing music).

 

So the dealer can be right ...

 

Maybe this helps you with a different (more positive) vision ?

Regards,

Peter

Thank you

Ill admit im still considering that intelligent reply

But i need to ask you , maybe i did not mention this , i was told that i over drove the speakers , i damaged the speakers while listening to music , never heard it occur , turned amp on hours later , and then the damaged speakers damaged my amp , but consider the speakers still work fine 

Can that be explained ?

Thanks mate

[RoseKloud666]

Turned amp off , hours later turned back on is what i meant