No More Audiophile Hassles

[cjf]

The poster throwing the carpet statement saying Class D sucks is obviously oblivious. You say you've heard the Mola Mola Kaluga at a show and were unimpressed says it all.

 

I own the Kalugas now, I've owned the Veritas and I still own the DIY NC400's built with my own hands. In all these cases, the speakers used were well into the 5 digit range. These amps are great for probably 90% or better of all the options available in terms of speakers. For the remaining 10%, those as hard to drive as a Mule, then your best to look elsewhere.

 

To say otherwise is to admit being an oblivious fool with old school biases towards version 1 Class D concept amps you may have heard 10years ago. Wake up Dude!

 

 

[wgscott]

On 10/20/2017 at 7:14 PM, cjf said:

The poster throwing the carpet statement saying Class D sucks is obviously oblivious.

 

You are being extremely charitable. 

[GUTB]

I listened to a bunch of class D at AXPONA this year — and they all SUCKED.

 

I bought a D-Sonic (latest Pascal + input board) — soundstage fatally flawed, lacked euphonics.

 

I bought a Teac (old ICEPower) — unlistenable garbage. 

 

So, are you guys saying I need to get a NCore like a Nord or Red Dragon? Or must I find some way to fund a $10-15k product like what you guys are mentioning?

[witchdoctor]

17 minutes ago, GUTB said:

I listened to a bunch of class D at AXPONA this year — and they all SUCKED.

 

I bought a D-Sonic (latest Pascal + input board) — soundstage fatally flawed, lacked euphonics.

 

I bought a Teac (old ICEPower) — unlistenable garbage. 

 

So, are you guys saying I need to get a NCore like a Nord or Red Dragon? Or must I find some way to fund a $10-15k product like what you guys are mentioning?

No, get a second hand Carver A series or AV Series amp for around $300 on Ebay. This thread is about less audiophile hassles not more. I scored a Carver AV 505 on CL for around $150 and it is magic.

 

[wgscott]

4 hours ago, witchdoctor said:

No, get a second hand Carver A series or AV Series amp for around $300 on Ebay. This thread is about less audiophile hassles not more. I scored a Carver AV 505 on CL for around $150 and it is magic.

 

It is extremely unlikely he could even tell any class D amp from anything else gain-matched if he was blindfolded.

[AudioDoctor]

It's only a hassle because we make it much more complicated than it needs to be.  The only "hassle" I have encountered due to this hobby is setting up a new cartridge on a turntable.  That's a hassle I would happily avoid if I didn't love vinyl so much, practically eliminating all hassle from my listening.

[Jud]

17 hours ago, GUTB said:

I listened to a bunch of class D at AXPONA this year — and they all SUCKED.

 

I bought a D-Sonic (latest Pascal + input board) — soundstage fatally flawed, lacked euphonics.

 

I bought a Teac (old ICEPower) — unlistenable garbage. 

 

So, are you guys saying I need to get a NCore like a Nord or Red Dragon? Or must I find some way to fund a $10-15k product like what you guys are mentioning?

 

We are saying get whatever you personally like at whatever price point you feel appropriate.

[firedog]

20 hours ago, GUTB said:

soundstage fatally flawed, lacked euphonics.

Maybe that is the key: you are looking for euphonics. In other words, lack of accurate reproduction, a type of "nice sounding" distortion. That's fine if that's what you like.

But it probably doesn't mean that "All Class D sucks" - it means that it is more accurate, and with less euphonic distortion, that what you like. 

[Ralf11]

no way to tell unless he posts what he heard & gives the listening test methodology

 

despite the Constitution, not all Class-D is created equal

[wgscott]

Can anyone give an example of a standard middle to high-end consumer-grade (or better) class D amplifier that is measurably inferior?

[witchdoctor]

1 minute ago, wgscott said:

Can anyone give an example of a standard middle to high-end consumer-grade (or better) class D amplifier that is measurably inferior?

It will be better if you give a price range instead of standard middle to high end.

[fas42]

10 hours ago, firedog said:

Maybe that is the key: you are looking for euphonics. In other words, lack of accurate reproduction, a type of "nice sounding" distortion. That's fine if that's what you like.

But it probably doesn't mean that "All Class D sucks" - it means that it is more accurate, and with less euphonic distortion, that what you like. 

 

I suspect he just wants to listen to the recording ... competent reproduction, which is something very different from what is produced from a system of plugged together components which tick all the boxes as far as a nice set of figures from conventional measurements is concerned, provides both accuracy and a deeply moving emotional experience.

 

"Nice sounding" distortion is boring, because everything sounds the same - 'clinical accuracy' is actually another type of distortion but is more acceptable to many people because they can pull up a set of numbers which vindicates their preference.

 

Class D and other types of amplifier architecture will all have signature styles of distortion, and the better the implementation the more that signature becomes inaudible - if engineered properly, they should all "sound the same"; only the qualities of the recording are heard. And, recordings have enough information on them to fully convey the experience of being with the musicians doing their thing - most of the time, the playback gets in the way of achieving that sense; altering the component types is usually just playing with an effects box, very few combos just deliver the recording, naked.

[GUTB]

The best class D I've spent real time with (ie in my home not in atrocious show conditions) is the D-Sonic. Very high driver control, quiet and resolving. Fast. Its flaws were few but very fatal: dry/empty sound and a comprrssed, shallow soundstage.

 

Some time after returning the amp, D-Sonic sent out an email saying the input stage has been re-designed to improve SQ and that they'd like to extend a second audition option. I didn't take it as the class D failures seemed linked to the very nature of class D.

 

But then you have guys here claiming up and down about how great these $10-15k amps are. So do I have to find a way to afford a Mola-Mola before I can get good results from class D?

[firedog]

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

I suspect he just wants to listen to the recording ... competent reproduction, which is something very different from what is produced from a system of plugged together components which tick all the boxes as far as a nice set of figures from conventional measurements is concerned, provides both accuracy and a deeply moving emotional experience.

 

"Nice sounding" distortion is boring, because everything sounds the same - 'clinical accuracy' is actually another type of distortion but is more acceptable to many people because they can pull up a set of numbers which vindicates their preference.

 

Class D and other types of amplifier architecture will all have signature styles of distortion, and the better the implementation the more that signature becomes inaudible - if engineered properly, they should all "sound the same"; only the qualities of the recording are heard. And, recordings have enough information on them to fully convey the experience of being with the musicians doing their thing - most of the time, the playback gets in the way of achieving that sense; altering the component types is usually just playing with an effects box, very few combos just deliver the recording, naked.

You're reading way too much into what I wrote. Accurate doesn't automatically go together with "clinical". I don't care about numbers per se. 

But IME, many audiophiles don't want accurate reproduction, they want a certain type of sound. In actuality they want a certain type of color (and being honest, that's a type of distortion) that they like or have been taught that corresponds to "proper" reproduction.  

When they hear reproduction that that actually reflects what is on the recording - they don't like it.

[cjf]

On 10/23/2017 at 8:30 PM, GUTB said:

 

But then you have guys here claiming up and down about how great these $10-15k amps are. So do I have to find a way to afford a Mola-Mola before I can get good results from class D?

IME, the Hypex NC400 DIY Amps and the Merill Veritas are the most neutral offerings of the Hypex lineup. These models ADD/Subtract close to zero in terms of the sound of the original recording.

 

If you are looking to hear a slightly more "enhanced" sound from total neutrality then this is where the Mola's come into the picture. I found them to be more enjoyable over the longer term listening sessions but this is not to say they sound anything like the typical Class A SS offerings on the market of equal caliber. Just a tad more Salt/Pepper added then total neutral sound.

 

IMO, these amps are perfect for those wanting to add their own seasoning elsewhere in the signal chain, like via cables, based on the neutrality level of the other components in the chain. Its actually pretty handy having an amp of such neutral behavior when it comes to picking cables and speakers since you can go into that decision knowing that the amps will play very little role in what your hearing after changing other components.

 

So in summary, I would choose the NC400 DIY offering if budget was a concern and then plan on possibly adding Salt/Pepper via cables to get to the "enhanced" sound you prefer if required.

[fas42]

Sort of curious ... how do people know when they have "neutral sound" ... ?

[AudioDoctor]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

Sort of curious ... how do people know when they have "neutral sound" ... ?

 

They don't...

[fas42]

56 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

They don't...

 

Well, the ones who are confident that they know what "neutral sound" is - what are they hearing, or listening for, that makes them sure about it ...

[GUTB]

"Neutral" is a code word for "it sucks". Usually "neutral" means empty, toneless, ruler flat soundstage and unengaging. So that $300 integrated off of Amazon doesn’t suck, it’s just "very neutral". Some people like "neutral", and some like "colored". So there’s no judgment, no need to aspire for more, just tell yourself you like "neutral".

[Jud]

On 10/24/2017 at 2:42 AM, firedog said:

You're reading way too much into what I wrote. Accurate doesn't automatically go together with "clinical". I don't care about numbers per se. 

But IME, many audiophiles don't want accurate reproduction, they want a certain type of sound. In actuality they want a certain type of color (and being honest, that's a type of distortion) that they like or have been taught that corresponds to "proper" reproduction.  

When they hear reproduction that that actually reflects what is on the recording - they don't like it.

 

Human senses are trained by long experience.  What you hear in certain situations can be a product of the language you speak, your musical culture, or even growing up left handed in a righty-dominated world.  So the fact that what we hear as “right” or “accurate” is affected by what we’ve heard before - our lifelong training - is to be expected.

[wgscott]

6 hours ago, GUTB said:

"Neutral" is a code word for "it sucks". Usually "neutral" means empty, toneless, ruler flat soundstage and unengaging. So that $300 integrated off of Amazon doesn’t suck, it’s just "very neutral". Some people like "neutral", and some like "colored". So there’s no judgment, no need to aspire for more, just tell yourself you like "neutral".

 

I like straight wire + gain, not audiophool sound effects.

[wgscott]

10 hours ago, fas42 said:

Sort of curious ... how do people know when they have "neutral sound" ... ?

 

They measure the frequency response with Audiotools, REW, Dirac, etc. ...  It really isn't that hard.  You just have to learn not to trust your ears.

[wgscott]

On 10/23/2017 at 2:16 PM, witchdoctor said:

It will be better if you give a price range instead of standard middle to high end.

 

So you can't.  

 

Figures.  You are just full of BS and vile bile.

[Jud]

59 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

So you can't.  

 

Figures.  You are just full of BS and vile bile.

 

Is a vial of bile vile?

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

 

They measure the frequency response with Audiotools, REW, Dirac, etc. ...  It really isn't that hard.  You just have to learn not to trust your ears.

 

Have you heard high end audio even once in your life?