wgscott Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 After seeing a thread titled No More Computer Hassles (in which a computer was replaced by a physical media player with a computer), it got me wondering how much of a performance hit one might take if one replaced all of the audiophile-oriented features with decent-quality consumer-grade options. Let's say for example 99% of my music files are either redbook, AAC/mp3, or 24/48 or 24/96 PCM. How much of a performance hit would I take if I just used iTunes and set Audio MIDI setup to 24/96 output, so that coreaudio would just upsample everything to that and send it to my DAC? How much of a performance hit would be entailed in using, for example, a $1K consumer-grade TEAC DAC (which is the best I have, fwiw)? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using a well-engineered, well-measuring, but moderately-priced generic amplifier (pick your favorite "topology")? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using well-behaved speakers that cost $100s of dollars rather than multiples of $1K, especially if these used room/speaker correction and/or active monitors? In other words, would we really lose all that much by forgoing all the audiophile expense and angst in favor of carefully-selected quality mainstream consumer-grade alternatives and focused more on enjoying music? Could we actually gain anything just by simplifying the signal path? tmtomh 1 Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, wgscott said: Let's say for example 99% of my music files are either redbook, AAC/mp3, or 24/48 or 24/96 PCM. How much of a performance hit would I take if I just used iTunes and set Audio MIDI setup to 24/96 output, so that coreaudio would just upsample everything to that and send it to my DAC? My experience with moving from "vanilla" coreaudio to direct/integer mode was a substantial and somewhat unmistakable increase in sound quality. This is what's keeping me locked to El Capitan, which I think is the last Mac OS release to support (mostly?) bypassing coreaudio. Link to comment
GUTB Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Huge downgrade. The DAC might be decent. I don’t know of any sub-$1000 amp you could consider "good" — the ones I tried were all inferior. I don’t think there’s such a thing as quality speakers in that price range. I wish upsampling to high rate DSD via HQPlayer into balanced DACs wasn’t such a large SQ improvement. I wish dedicated audio PCs didn’t improve SQ so much. I wish I didn’t have to spend hundreds on a speaker cable, and so on. The 1.5k I spent on room treatments alone seem worth thier price in SQ gains. The only upgrades I’m not sure did anything was a $250 AC socket and various footers. Link to comment
Popular Post witchdoctor Posted October 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, wgscott said: After seeing a thread titled No More Computer Hassles (in which a computer was replaced by a physical media player with a computer), it got me wondering how much of a performance hit one might take if one replaced all of the audiophile-oriented features with decent-quality consumer-grade options. Let's say for example 99% of my music files are either redbook, AAC/mp3, or 24/48 or 24/96 PCM. How much of a performance hit would I take if I just used iTunes and set Audio MIDI setup to 24/96 output, so that coreaudio would just upsample everything to that and send it to my DAC? How much of a performance hit would be entailed in using, for example, a $1K consumer-grade TEAC DAC (which is the best I have, fwiw)? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using a well-engineered, well-measuring, but moderately-priced generic amplifier (pick your favorite "topology")? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using well-behaved speakers that cost $100s of dollars rather than multiples of $1K, especially if these used room/speaker correction and/or active monitors? In other words, would we really lose all that much by forgoing all the audiophile expense and angst in favor of carefully-selected quality mainstream consumer-grade alternatives and focused more on enjoying music? Could we actually gain anything just by simplifying the signal path? I think you are asking the right question. To build a high impact budget system I would use one of the new active speaker systems where all you need is a source. If your budget is tight you could just stream via bluetooth from your phone. Klipsch Powered Monitors, the Dynaudio XEO speakers and the Kef Active LS-50 come to mind. esldude and tmtomh 2 Link to comment
Norton Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I suspect the TEAC DAC is fine (I'm currently "reduced" to using my Oppo 105 as a DAC and its pretty good), can't comment on iTunes ( but JRiver 23 on cheap fanless PC is great), $1000 amp could be OK, but going down to cheap speakers would be the big hit on SQ. Link to comment
witchdoctor Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I agree about cheap PASSIVE speakers being a downgrade. But I think your dollar goes a LONG way with active speakers for so many reasons. https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-reference-r-15pm-powered-monitor-reviewed/ or if you want to spend more: https://www.whathifi.com/kef/ls50-wireless/review In either system I don't think you could top it using the same budget going the traditional route. Link to comment
GUTB Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Active speakers suck because they use Class D amplification. Our lives would be so much cheaper, lighter and cooler if Class D didn't suck, but alas the technology just isn't there yet. Link to comment
new_media Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, wgscott said: How much of a performance hit would be entailed in using, for example, a $1K consumer-grade TEAC DAC (which is the best I have, fwiw)? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using a well-engineered, well-measuring, but moderately-priced generic amplifier (pick your favorite "topology")? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using well-behaved speakers that cost $100s of dollars rather than multiples of $1K, especially if these used room/speaker correction and/or active monitors? In other words, would we really lose all that much by forgoing all the audiophile expense and angst in favor of carefully-selected quality mainstream consumer-grade alternatives and focused more on enjoying music? Could we actually gain anything just by simplifying the signal path? Veils being lowered. esldude 1 Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 54 minutes ago, GUTB said: Active speakers suck because they use Class D amplification. Our lives would be so much cheaper, lighter and cooler if Class D didn't suck, but alas the technology just isn't there yet. Gallium Nitride Class D is coming... Link to comment
kumakuma Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said: Gallium Nitride Class D is coming... Gallium Nitride Class D amplification sucks. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
witchdoctor Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, GUTB said: Active speakers suck because they use Class D amplification. Our lives would be so much cheaper, lighter and cooler if Class D didn't suck, but alas the technology just isn't there yet. My active speakers don't use class D. Some do. Just buy speakers with a 30 day return policy, no big deal. I think you should be specific, this specific speaker sucks, instead of all class D powered speakers suck. Link to comment
kumakuma Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 13 minutes ago, witchdoctor said: My active speakers don't use class D. Neither do mine. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
davide256 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 3 hours ago, wgscott said: After seeing a thread titled No More Computer Hassles (in which a computer was replaced by a physical media player with a computer), it got me wondering how much of a performance hit one might take if one replaced all of the audiophile-oriented features with decent-quality consumer-grade options. Let's say for example 99% of my music files are either redbook, AAC/mp3, or 24/48 or 24/96 PCM. How much of a performance hit would I take if I just used iTunes and set Audio MIDI setup to 24/96 output, so that coreaudio would just upsample everything to that and send it to my DAC? How much of a performance hit would be entailed in using, for example, a $1K consumer-grade TEAC DAC (which is the best I have, fwiw)? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using a well-engineered, well-measuring, but moderately-priced generic amplifier (pick your favorite "topology")? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using well-behaved speakers that cost $100s of dollars rather than multiples of $1K, especially if these used room/speaker correction and/or active monitors? In other words, would we really lose all that much by forgoing all the audiophile expense and angst in favor of carefully-selected quality mainstream consumer-grade alternatives and focused more on enjoying music? Could we actually gain anything just by simplifying the signal path? Enjoy your "hotdog" . I'll keep struggling to master cooking "steak". After 30 years of cooking "steak", I both enjoy the "taste" and the knowledge that it can be made even better. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
PhilR Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, GUTB said: Active speakers suck because they use Class D amplification. Our lives would be so much cheaper, lighter and cooler if Class D didn't suck, but alas the technology just isn't there yet. This perfectly explains why the KEF LS-50 wireless speakers are generating so many great reviews from respected websites & audiophiles. I think this speaker could well be the heart of a sub $2500 set-n-forget system, especially if purchased on the used market. Amp/Speaker/DAC all in one. The OP can feed his iTunes into the back of the speaker and have Tidal as musical backup. Lots of time and $$ left to enjoy the music if one can give up chasing that last 10%. But that last 10% is just the nature of this hobby. If you are active on this website, you probably enjoy chasing that last 10% just as much as you enjoy listening to music. Just like how the automotive tuning culture enjoys modifying and tweaking their cars just as much as they enjoy driving them. Solstice380 1 Synology DS1515+ > PS Audio P10 > Innuos Zenith Mk II running Roon Core > IsoRegen/LPS-1 > Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 > Tekton Double Impact Speakers Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, kumakuma said: Gallium Nitride Class D amplification sucks. Is it mature enough to dismiss already? Honest question. Link to comment
kumakuma Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 37 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: Is it mature enough to dismiss already? Honest question. No idea. I was simply trying to save GUTB some time. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 minute ago, kumakuma said: No idea. I was simply trying to save GUTB some time. What percentage of contemporary "audiophile" music do you suppose is being mixed/mastered on active Class D studio monitors? Link to comment
kumakuma Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: What percentage of contemporary "audiophile" music do you suppose is being mixed/mastered on active Class D studio monitors? Hard to say. The better studio monitors tend to be Class A/B from what I've seen. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 5 hours ago, wgscott said: In other words, would we really lose all that much by forgoing all the audiophile expense and angst in favor of carefully-selected quality mainstream consumer-grade alternatives and focused more on enjoying music? Could we actually gain anything just by simplifying the signal path? Yes and no. Consumer grade components have their weaknesses because of cost cutting in crucial areas - the core of the gear is certainly good enough, but unless one is prepared to dive inside and sort out some of the poor implementation aspects then it may never reach a good enough standard. Simplifying is an excellent route to better sound - it's the parts used to allow complexity in the whole which frequently are the key weaknesses; stripping out or bypassing those elements can be exactly the right thing to do. The last 10% mentioned above is where the action is - get that last 10% sorted, and the subjective experience is advanced, aww, 200% or so - sorta makes it worthwhile persevering ... 4est 1 Link to comment
Popular Post witchdoctor Posted October 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, PhilR said: This perfectly explains why the KEF LS-50 wireless speakers are generating so many great reviews from respected websites & audiophiles. I think this speaker could well be the heart of a sub $2500 set-n-forget system, especially if purchased on the used market. Amp/Speaker/DAC all in one. The OP can feed his iTunes into the back of the speaker and have Tidal as musical backup. Lots of time and $$ left to enjoy the music if one can give up chasing that last 10%. But that last 10% is just the nature of this hobby. If you are active on this website, you probably enjoy chasing that last 10% just as much as you enjoy listening to music. Just like how the automotive tuning culture enjoys modifying and tweaking their cars just as much as they enjoy driving them. The "last 10%" is for the ADD type hobbyists. What a lot of us like is getting 90% there for a bang for the buck price. Teresa and lucretius 2 Link to comment
witchdoctor Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 57 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: What percentage of contemporary "audiophile" music do you suppose is being mixed/mastered on active Class D studio monitors? Studio monitors are different from the powered speakers that include a dac and a preamp. JBL LSR 305/308 are class D and are getting rave reviews. Link to comment
wushuliu Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 4 hours ago, GUTB said: Active speakers suck because they use Class D amplification. Our lives would be so much cheaper, lighter and cooler if Class D didn't suck, but alas the technology just isn't there yet. Whoa. What is this, 2007? The tech is definitely there. There are some incredible Class D amps out there - at least in the diy world. But you may not find that quality in cheap retail gear. Just because something is Class D doesn't mean you don't get what you pay for. Link to comment
GUTB Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, wushuliu said: Whoa. What is this, 2007? The tech is definitely there. There are some incredible Class D amps out there - at least in the diy world. But you may not find that quality in cheap retail gear. Just because something is Class D doesn't mean you don't get what you pay for. Class D sucks — sadly this is a matter of physics and math and not dependent on implementation. DIY especially sucks. Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 All I can say is that I didn't know how much difference an amp can make, and until I bought a McIntosh, I would have never believed an AMP can make such a big difference...but obviously, speakers are the #1 difference maker....and really the type of music you listen to will dictate what speakers are best more than anything. I do believe that noise on the USB does cause issues, and why i purchased a schiit with the usb gen5...but if you want to do DLNA you can do just as well with any DAC with ethernet port (embedded or otherwise). Speakers, AMP, Good USB isolation, Room Treatments, EQ....and don't sweat the other stuff. I think there are many good Speakers in all budgets, but would not skimp on the AMP. If you want a cheap good amp, get a used Nelson Pass AMP (nakamichi, threshold). I also have heard several CLASS D amps that I do like. JMO Link to comment
4est Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 7 hours ago, wgscott said: After seeing a thread titled No More Computer Hassles (in which a computer was replaced by a physical media player with a computer), it got me wondering how much of a performance hit one might take if one replaced all of the audiophile-oriented features with decent-quality consumer-grade options. Let's say for example 99% of my music files are either redbook, AAC/mp3, or 24/48 or 24/96 PCM. How much of a performance hit would I take if I just used iTunes and set Audio MIDI setup to 24/96 output, so that coreaudio would just upsample everything to that and send it to my DAC? How much of a performance hit would be entailed in using, for example, a $1K consumer-grade TEAC DAC (which is the best I have, fwiw)? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using a well-engineered, well-measuring, but moderately-priced generic amplifier (pick your favorite "topology")? How much of a performance hit would be entailed using well-behaved speakers that cost $100s of dollars rather than multiples of $1K, especially if these used room/speaker correction and/or active monitors? In other words, would we really lose all that much by forgoing all the audiophile expense and angst in favor of carefully-selected quality mainstream consumer-grade alternatives and focused more on enjoying music? Could we actually gain anything just by simplifying the signal path? Itunes upsampling sucks- just run the files, the TEAC is likely fine, a generic amp too if it mates well with your speakers. Speakers are king, and possibly something inexpensive will do it for you if you really look hard and are reasonable. Its like finding the right partner, know the trade offs and deal breakers. Room correction? I'd be putting my best into sorting the room first. I've yet to hear room eq DSP that gave me goose pimples. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now