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SMPS and grounding


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25 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

Actually it is not RF, leakage current is primarily line frequency harmonics (60, 120, 180 etc) which fall directly in the audio range. Standard shielding is hardly effective at all at these frequencies, my shielding techniques radically improve this.

 

Standard audio line interconnects run at a high impedance which make it much easier for this leakage radiation to be picked up. A headphone cable is a MUCH lower impedance system which picks up a lot less of this.

 

Leakage at the DAC itself is much worse because it can modulate the phase noise of the clock, this just doesn't show up as some low frequency noise, it modulates everything coming out of the DAC. So leakage current through the DAC is priority number one, everything else is way down on the hit list.

 

John S.

Is this why DAC’s being powered by an ultra capacitor power supply (like an LPS-1.2 or Vinni Rossi Mini Pure DC4Ever, etc) with the USB input going through an ISO-Regen also powered by an LPS-1.2 sound so good? (Due to much less likelihood of AC Line Leakage Current)?

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On ‎21‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:14 PM, Superdad said:

 

Good idea! I just made a note to myself to ask Martin (VortexBoxUK/Audiostore) if he would like us to include a half-dozen extra chargers in with his next dozen shipment of UltraCap LPS-1.2 kits at the end of the month.

Did he say yes?

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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Or, just a DAC with good, well done, linear power supplies.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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Getting back to the use of a Netgear switch and the choice of RJ45 cables: would it make sense to  wrap cables with RFI shielding tape (ex: copper tape)  UTP cables going to and out of the switch, or is this complete overkill ? In general, does it make sense to use shielding tape on any type of cable around an audio system ?

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3 hours ago, hopkins said:

Getting back to the use of a Netgear switch and the choice of RJ45 cables: would it make sense to  wrap cables with RFI shielding tape (ex: copper tape)  UTP cables going to and out of the switch, or is this complete overkill ? In general, does it make sense to use shielding tape on any type of cable around an audio system ?

Shielding has had a big impact on DC power and digital signal carrying cables here.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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On 9/26/2017 at 7:03 AM, Ryelands said:

 

As what follows is a bit off-topic wrt Sonore thread, I'm chipping in here. I hope that's OK but move/delete as appropriate.

 

I've been powering the downstream end of a music-system-only LAN with an LPS-1 for several months now. I have neither the wit nor the kit to replicate John's fascinating measurements but I'd be surprised if an SMPS, however well configured, were to better the LPS-1. As I experimented over months to get where I am now, I'll describe my setup. It might be of wider interest.

 

A TP-Link FMC feeds music data from a remote server (OK, an old XP box in the back room) and passes it through an EMO EN-70 LAN isolator to a Zytec ES105A switch. That switch connects to a second switch which connects to a third which connects via another EN-70 to the elderly Fit-PC2 I now proudly call my Network Audio Adapter.

 

The LAN devices connect to the LPS-1 via home-made, 24awg quad-core cables. The Fit-PC2 has its own LPS-1 and connects to an Intona USB isolator also powered by its own LPS-1. I think I can honestly describe my digital "front end" as off-grid.

 

The LAN cables are made from decent (Excel) CAT5 stock and Telegartner connectors. The system runs at 10MB/sec, allowing cable pairs 3 & 4 to be omitted. That tweak definitely matters. The cables are screened using self-adhesive Cu sheet, each with a JSSG-style drain wire. (My wife says that all that shiny copper makes the rack look like a tart's dressing table. I can't say.)

 

The lesson for me was that if I change ANY part of the above almost absurdly elaborate chain I lose sound quality (SQ). If I swap in even a decent LAN cable, remove one of the isolators, by-pass even one of the Zyxel switches, I lose SQ. The Meanwell SMPSs that run the LPS-1s are powered via an isolating transformer. If remove the transformers, SQ falls. If I leave all four pairs in the LAN cables, SQ falls. If I run the LAN at 100MB/sec, SQ falls sharply.

 

Worse, though I already knew that Zyxel switches typically sounded better than other makes and that all the 10/100 switches I tried sounded better than a Netgear Gigabit switch, when by chance I swapped one of the Zyxel v3 switches for a Zyxel v1, SQ improved sharply. (Different controller chips.) It also improved when I made the cases "sort-of Faraday shields" by filing away paint so the metal base made proper contact with the lid.

 

I could have tried one of those "audio grade" switches but it seems they all use Gigabit-speed devices and are not cheap.

 

All that said, SQ has very much improved. I'm not talking "more inner micro-detail in the singer's mid-range" or the like: what I got was a Wham-Bam in your face improvement. The system came alive even though in essence all I'd changed was the network cable between a server and a NAA. It suggests to me that the signal quality is markedly better than what I've been used to for several years now or, put a different way, LAN links are almost as pollutant as KVMs.

 

BTW, when I replaced the decent linear PS that drove the server end of the link (3 more Zyxel v1 switches and FMC but no isolators) with a USB charger thingie, SQ again improved. I plan to try an LPS-1 there when funds permit.

 

I'm not suggesting the chain could not be simplified, only that I don't at present know where to begin despite John saying "you will have to use something like the LPS-1 which will get rid of it all". The LPS-1 is superb at powering LAN devices but IME it's only a start.

 

Could you be more specific to the model # of the Zyxel "v1 switch?"  Thanks!

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On 11/1/2017 at 2:32 PM, Superdad said:

 

 

Chill guys.  I know it is confusing.  On my call with John last night I brought this up because it seemed at first glance that he was contradicting himself.

First off:

His comment about unshielded CAT cable radiating common-mode leakage was based on actual experience on his test bench where his specialized leakage measurement set up was picking up a large amount of stuff that he could see on his scope as he moved the UTP around.  

Yet of course a normal shielded CAT cable (6A) that has the shield tied at both ends (metal shel around the RJ45) is undesirable for our purposes because it reduces isolation by joining grounds between boxes and giving a path for both other leakage--and potentially noise.

 

The BlueJeans/Belden CAT6A does not tie its shields at all, but that shield may not be doing much for us.  It would be very effective if John's external shield wire loop trick was applied to that (external wire running between the shield ends).

 

But ALL the above is a moot point if one is using an Ethernet switch (such as the Netgear FS/GS units) that have been confirmed to shunt high-impedance leakage (from both an SMPS powering it and from the gear/cables feeding it).  

And that is where John's recommendation to put the Netgear switch at the end with your computers/router/etc.--and just run a single long cable to your hi-fi renderer.  Since the leakage will then not be on the cable (due to blocking by the Netgear), it then does not matter if the CAT cable is UTP or STP!

 

Hope that clears this up.  9_9

My set up is ethernet coming from a distant Router to a Switch.  Because I am using an expensive ethernet cable from Audioquest ( and yes, after much testing, it sounds like it's worth the money) I chose to use a very SHORT version of this cable thus locating my switch only 1 meter from my Nucleus+ Server and another 1 meter from my Dac.

 

If I understand correctly, the advice, if I want to take advantage of using a switch with 

low leakage, it needs to be located much father away from the Server and Dac? (twenty feet?).

 

The problem for me is that this already expensive network cable would then be whole lot more expensive at 20' long.

 

Do I have this conundrum right?

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6 hours ago, wwc said:

My set up is ethernet coming from a distant Router to a Switch.  Because I am using an expensive ethernet cable from Audioquest ( and yes, after much testing, it sounds like it's worth the money) I chose to use a very SHORT version of this cable thus locating my switch only 1 meter from my Nucleus+ Server and another 1 meter from my Dac.

 

If I understand correctly, the advice, if I want to take advantage of using a switch with 

low leakage, it needs to be located much father away from the Server and Dac? (twenty feet?).

 

The problem for me is that this already expensive network cable would then be whole lot more expensive at 20' long.

 

Do I have this conundrum right?

No this is not true. The situation is:

 

IF there is leakage coming into something with Ethernet, it should not be right in next to your audio equipment, the Ethernet cable will radiate EMI from the leakage current which MAY be picked up by your audio cables or equipment.

 

IF you use one of the specific switches and properly ground the supply, there will be no leakage current flowing through the Ethernet cable thus no EMI from the cable, so no concern about picking up noise from it.

 

The switch itself and/or its power supply may still be emitting EMI, so you still probably do not want the switch right in with the other audio equipment, but that is true of pretty much any network equipment.

 

Let me see if I can put this in more concrete term. Network systems usually have lots of leakage, this leakage traveling over Ethernet cables can radiate and if that cable is close to audio cables and equipment it can cause problems. The special switches can prevent that leakage from getting on the cable going to the digital parts in your audio system. The Ethernet cable going INTO the switch STILL has leakage. If you put the switch right in with the rest of the audio system, you now have the INPUT cable radiating into the audio system. The only way this special switch that blocks leakage is really effective is if the switch is somewhat away from the audio system. There is no hard and fast rule as to how far that distance is, it depends entirely on your system and you. Six inches is too close and twenty feet is definitely far enough. The real threshold for your system will be in between, but there is no way someone else can tell you what it is. In my system it is six feet. In other peoples system it is probably going to be different.

 

If you have some restraint the requires the switch to be close to your audio system , you can either live with it or go to different methods to prevent the leakage current from radiating. This most likely will entail the special shielding methods I have talked about.

 

None of this stuff means that if you don't get this perfect your system sounds terrible, it is all about extracting the last little bit of realism out of your system. If you have other optimizations which preclude the full on optimizations talked about here, it may be a good trade off for you, but you will have to make that decision, I cannot tell you whether a very short piece of super cable and radiating leakage will sound better or worse than longer normal cable and no radiating leakage.

 

John S.

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On 31/03/2018 at 12:16 AM, wwc said:

Could you be more specific to the model # of the Zyxel "v1 switch?"  Thanks!

Humble apologies but I've only spotted this query. It's probably an age thing.

 

Should it still be on any interest, I use ZyXel ES105As and find that the now-hard-to-get V1 sounds better than the more common V3s. But, to get the best from either and all-but eliminate the gap between them, replace the 3.3v regulator at the input with an LT3045-based device. See pic of a v3 box though it's easier to do a neater job with shorter leads with the v1.

 

Neater still, wait until Uptone Audio releases its upcoming audio-grade switch which, I note with interest, is 10/100MB/sec only.

 

HTH

 

Dave

Zyxel v3 w Acko reg.jpg

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On 4/4/2018 at 3:03 AM, Ryelands said:

Humble apologies but I've only spotted this query. It's probably an age thing.

 

Should it still be on any interest, I use ZyXel ES105As and find that the now-hard-to-get V1 sounds better than the more common V3s. But, to get the best from either and all-but eliminate the gap between them, replace the 3.3v regulator at the input with an LT3045-based device. See pic of a v3 box though it's easier to do a neater job with shorter leads with the v1.

 

Neater still, wait until Uptone Audio releases its upcoming audio-grade switch which, I note with interest, is 10/100MB/sec only.

 

HTH

 

Dave

Zyxel v3 w Acko reg.jpg

UpTone switch?

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On ‎21‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:14 PM, Superdad said:

 

Good idea! I just made a note to myself to ask Martin (VortexBoxUK/Audiostore) if he would like us to include a half-dozen extra chargers in with his next dozen shipment of UltraCap LPS-1.2 kits at the end of the month.

I presume he said yes, and this is it?B|

 

https://www.vortexbox.co.uk/PSU_for_Uptone_UltraCap__LPS-12/p317978_17832335.aspx

 

N.B.  I hope that I presume correctly, as I have just ordered one!

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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Cisco SG100D-08 v2 *if* negative is properly shunted

Qnap HS-264 NAS (powered by an HD-Plex 100w LPS) > Cirrus7 Nimbini v2.5 Media Edition i7-8559U/32/512 running Roon ROCK (powered by a Keces P8 LPS) > Lumin U2  > Metrum Acoustics Adagio NOS digital preamplifier > First Watt SIT 3  power amplifier (or Don Garber Fi "Y" 6922 tube preamplifier + Don Garber Fi "X" 2A3 SET power amplifier, both powered from an Alpha-Core BP-30 Isolated Symmetrical Power Transformer) > Klipsch Cornwall III

 

headphones system:

Cirrus 7 > Lumin U2 > Metrum Acoustics Adagio > Pathos Aurium amplifier (powered by an UpTone Audio JS-2 LPS) > Focal Clear headphones

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FWIW just went from a shunted Netgear with TP-Link FMC’s post into microRendu, to a pair of Cisco 2960-8TC-L’s picked up for $29/ea on ebay, along with a couple of Cisco SFPs for $5/ea and LC-LC fiber cable to connect the two. The Cisco’s are fanless and have internal SMPS’s so was able to rid myself of some linear power supplies/iFi’s as well. Server and internet input (from another switch) into the first one; Ghent JSSG ethernet cable into rendu out of the second. Sound is incredible, full and weighty with deep bass compared to the consumer units. IMO this is the way to go, and has been all the rage over on the Naim forum for some time. These commercial Cisco’s can be picked up cheap as chips. Only issue is the switches have to be near the hifi (as the crow flies) but there will always be payoffs, and I’m pretty sure these leak a lot less than the consumer units. Will be interesting to see if the Uptone beats this.

 

@John Swenson: if you’re ever up Seattle way when the etherRegen is nearing completion and want to test/compare it to the Cisco arrangement stop by and be my guest. We’re centrally located on east Capitol Hill.

 

Best,

 

CP

SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)>

LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. 

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26 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

FWIW just went from a shunted Netgear with TP-Link FMC’s post into microRendu, to a pair of Cisco 2960-8TC-L’s picked up for $29/ea on ebay, along with a couple of Cisco SFPs for $5/ea and LC-LC fiber cable to connect the two. The Cisco’s are fanless and have internal SMPS’s so was able to rid myself of some linear power supplies/iFi’s as well. Server and internet input (from another switch) into the first one; Ghent JSSG ethernet cable into rendu out of the second. Sound is incredible, full and weighty with deep bass compared to the consumer units. IMO this is the way to go, and has been all the rage over on the Naim forum for some time. These commercial Cisco’s can be picked up cheap as chips. Only issue is the switches have to be near the hifi (as the crow flies) but there will always be payoffs, and I’m pretty sure these leak a lot less than the consumer units. Will be interesting to see if the Uptone beats this.

 

Best,

 

CP

@charlesphoto this post really piqued my curiosity.  I looked at the switches you listed and the one thing that bothers me is the AC input.  I have a Cisco SG300-10 that has 12v DC input and 2 SFP ports.  If you haven't you may want to check these out.  I got my used on eBay a while back for about $60. 

 

I am going to compare the SG300 against the shunted Netgear GS105 I have.   This will allow me to remove an FMC.  On a side note, I will say I greatly prefer my system without any switch in it with a direct connection between HQP and NAA but after I switched to Server 2016 in core mode bridging multiple NICs is not possible.  

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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IMO the built in SMPS with grounded AC input (cable quality makes a subtle difference) is a plus, and haven’t noticed anything detrimental about it. More later as I have to run out the door, but check out the comments over on the Naim forum regarding the 2960 for more info. Back later to comment some more. 

SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)>

LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. 

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3 hours ago, charlesphoto said:

IMO the built in SMPS with grounded AC input (cable quality makes a subtle difference) is a plus, and haven’t noticed anything detrimental about it. More later as I have to run out the door, but check out the comments over on the Naim forum regarding the 2960 for more info. Back later to comment some more. 

 

Hi,

 

Only asking out of interest but do we know for sure if the grounded AC input is actually doing what we want (shunting the high impedance leakage)?

 

For example, we know from what John's said that using a grounded DC output SMPS with any old switch is no guarantee to shunt these high impedance leakage currents, so he recommended a few that do work after he tested them.

 

And measuring/testing is not really something that any one of us can do - I did ask if I can just get a digital multimeter to check continuity and John told me that with ethernet switches it's more complicated than that.

 

Of course the fiber will block all leakage between switches but the most downstream switch MAY not shunt the high impedance leakage into the microRendu? Maybe it does.

 

Just thinking out loud. Maybe your switch does work but I'm not sure there's any way to know with certainty, other than trusting your ears.

 

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