One and a half Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, MrDerrick said: Is this adequate? MANUAL-SNR.PDF Thanks for the manual which has the curves. Hmm. Don't make much of an impact below 100kHz do they? The money is better invested in a LPS for audio purposes. AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
One and a half Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 On 11/21/2017 at 4:35 PM, octaviars said: My Asus router runs on 19V. I use 5V to ISP, 19V to router, 12V to switch and 19V to NUC with Roon ROCK. For each 0V of each power supply, bring them to a common point, and from that common point, ground that connection, if you haven't completed this already. AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
octaviars Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 3 hours ago, One and a half said: For each 0V of each power supply, bring them to a common point, and from that common point, ground that connection, if you haven't completed this already. I dont think I will do that I will only ground the 12V to the GS108 switch and keep the other ones floating as the PSU is linear and the only place I need a ground is at the switch to shunt away leakage on the ethernet. I talked to Paul Hynes about connecting all -0V to ground and he thougt that was not something he recommend as all groundplanes from the equipment would be shared and also noise from each component could spill over to another. I also think @JohnSwenson wrote somewere that only grounding at one place could be a good thing. And as I have no SMPS the only ground I need is at the switch to shunt out leakage from the ethernet. So my HD Plex will get one grounded output to my switch GS108 and the other 3 outputs will be floating. My Paul Hynes SR4 feeding my SOtM SMS Ultra will also be floting. Main system TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D-TC, Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> Uptone etherREGEN -> dCS Network Bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, etherREGEN and NUC) Second system Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree Link to comment
One and a half Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, octaviars said: I dont think I will do that I will only ground the 12V to the GS108 switch and keep the other ones floating as the PSU is linear and the only place I need a ground is at the switch to shunt away leakage on the ethernet. I talked to Paul Hynes about connecting all -0V to ground and he thougt that was not something he recommend as all groundplanes from the equipment would be shared and also noise from each component could spill over to another. I also think @JohnSwenson wrote somewere that only grounding at one place could be a good thing. And as I have no SMPS the only ground I need is at the switch to shunt out leakage from the ethernet. So my HD Plex will get one grounded output to my switch GS108 and the other 3 outputs will be floating. My Paul Hynes SR4 feeding my SOtM SMS Ultra will also be floting. Understand where you are coming from. If all the 0V are tied to ground at one point, the 0V are guaranteed to be the same potential. If any load creates an impedance leakage (high or low), that current returns to the source that's supplying it. Each current from the 19V or 5V supply will always travel back to the source, that's the way it works. There won't be a spill from one component to the other, of course if everything floats, now spill is a very likely event. The main problem is, to treat each component, a switch, DAC, power supply, PC as an island and look at the specs to say, there's no noise from these, must be somewhere else. In today's complex connected spaghetti, the island concept needs a serious going over and it shouldn't be up to the end user to figure it all out. Resolution down to very small levels is measurable and listenable these days especially for a DAC, so every effort to stop leakage currents needs more attention than the music itself Less noise = more signal but getting there is a LOT of work. For example, my Internet is not working, so I can't control Jriver, so I listened to CDs of the same music I've been playing from Jriver lately. Wow, where did the bass come from, and the depth. For a CD player, paths and power supplies are short and linear. For a computer playback system they are a dog's breakfast (all over the place), no wonder noise gets in via unshielded power cable, DC unshielded, SMPS, low cost high noise switching regulators, filters...that's just the power supplies, haven't begun to grapple the mess from a computer where power supplies are multiplied by 20. asdf1000 1 AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
octaviars Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 28 minutes ago, One and a half said: Understand where you are coming from. If all the 0V are tied to ground at one point, the 0V are guaranteed to be the same potential. If any load creates an impedance leakage (high or low), that current returns to the source that's supplying it. Each current from the 19V or 5V supply will always travel back to the source, that's the way it works. There won't be a spill from one component to the other, of course if everything floats, now spill is a very likely event. Well I can only refer to what Paul Hynes told me regarding his floating multirail PSU that he would not connect togheter all -0V as the whole meaning of having seperate windings on the transformer would be lost. As I dont have any SMPS at all in my system the high impedance leakage is not something that I would need to worry about and as I got the GS108 smitch grounded all my network equipment is connected to that so the low impedance leakage will be shunted out that way to the grounded 12V at my HD Plex. I am not arguing that this is the best solution and I might ground all my PSU rails but my understanding reading what @JohnSwenson have written about a system only having linear PSU and the right switch to shunt out the leakage the need for grounding all PSU is perhaps not so critical. I will start of with just one ground when I rebuild my network but that might change over time. I will use Ghent sheilded (JSSG loop) networkcables and my AC powercables are sheilded using Johns sheilding JSSG loop. Main system TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D-TC, Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> Uptone etherREGEN -> dCS Network Bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, etherREGEN and NUC) Second system Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 29 minutes ago, One and a half said: so I listened to CDs of the same music I've been playing from Jriver lately. Wow, where did the bass come from, and the depth. For a CD player, paths and power supplies are short and linear. Your CD player isn't a normal one though Gary ! That wonderful Playback Designs SACD transport/DAC is quite special 31 minutes ago, One and a half said: For a computer playback system they are a dog's breakfast (all over the place), no wonder noise gets in via unshielded power cable, DC unshielded, SMPS, low cost high noise switching regulators, filters.. Too true. Link to comment
One and a half Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, Em2016 said: Your CD player isn't a normal one though Gary ! That wonderful Playback Designs SACD transport/DAC is quite special Too true. A good sound out of computer audio is just getting harder, the spend is limitless Very, very tempted to toss the USB Chain and DAC and end up with a streamer to analog converter (STAC ) , like a Pioneer N-70A, Lumin D2, Chord Code X (along those lines) and be resigned to accept with what comes out of it, end of story. No need to route through a switch(es), there's a direct wired CAT5e, direct from a computer than can be used. Another topic though! asdf1000 1 AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
JohnSwenson Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 6 hours ago, MrDerrick said: Would this product be useful? SFE_SNR (2).pdf These devices are designed to cut down on the ripple on the output of SMPS, this is a differential output (between - and + DC), which is COMPLETELY different than the leakage current which this thread is all about. They do NOT decrease leakage current in ANY way, and may actually INCREASE leakage current in the process of decreasing the ripple voltage. If the ripple voltage from an SMPS is causing a problem, this MAY prove useful, but you may find that it is fixing the wrong thing. This type of differential noise is well known and many designs will already have taken measures to deal with it, so it is usually the not well known or understood leakage current which is frequently the problem, so increasing leakage current while attempting to fix something that is frequently not a problem, is usually not a good thing to do. John S. Link to comment
Popular Post JohnSwenson Posted December 10, 2017 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 10, 2017 On the subject of grounding LPS output, the grounding output is the shunt high impedance leakage, LPS in general don't have that, so gounding an LPS doesn't help it. This means that even if you do ground the LPS, the low impedance leakage may still be coming from that PS and into other devices, remember that leakage loops go between power supplies through interconnects EVEN if there are no grounds, that is the whole thing about leakage loops. An insulated DC output protects against one type of problem, but does nothing for another type of problem. Grounding the the output of the LPS doesn't help either, so you are probably better off not grounding an LPS output, although, if yours is, don't worry about it. As I have said probably the best system looks like this: no SMPS, just LPS, all outputs not grounded. ONE place in the system where the connected shields (signal shields, negatives of LPS outputs etc) are earthed. AC mains connections of the PS's are plugged into a single strip which does not have any form of filtering or "power conditioning" between outlets. Note that the grounding the special switch (in order to shunt the high impedance leakage from network SMPS) does NOT count as the one earth connection above. This ground IS galvanically isolated from the rest of the system by the Ethernet transformers, you should have a different single earthing point. Note that this is just a general guideline and not meant to say that any deviation from this automatically means your system will sound awful, I am NOT saying this!!!!! It is something that in many systems will give a high probability of countering some of the leakage problems that cause problems for many systems. There are other configurations that can also work. If properly dealt with SMPS can also still work well in a system, it is just more difficult to get it right. This stuff is definitely shades of gray, not black and white. You can still have a very good sounding system even if you still haven't fixed all possible leakage sources, it just won't sound quite as good as it ultimately could. So please don't feel that your system is going to be horribly broken if you don't get all of this perfect. Using things like this is a way to steer your system towards getting the best sound possible out of it, nothing more. John S. R1200CL, Speed Racer, auricgoldfinger and 3 others 3 2 1 Link to comment
octaviars Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 26 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said: Note that the grounding the special switch (in order to shunt the high impedance leakage from network SMPS) does NOT count as the one earth connection above. This ground IS galvanically isolated from the rest of the system by the Ethernet transformers, you should have a different single earthing point. My system is a HD Plex linear PSU that feeds my ISP fiberconverter, router, GS108 switch and NUC with Roon ROCK. Ethernet goes to Sotm SMS Ultra that is feed by a coming Paul Hynes linear PSU, from Sotm SMS Ultra I go to my dac that is double isolated so no ground and only linear PSU inside. From dac to amplifier with balanced xlr the amp is also double isolated so no ground. I have two 230Vac feeds, one to the network stuff and one to my audio stuff (PSU for Sotm, dac and amp). No filters or anything like that in the powerstrips. My plan was to only ground the 12v feeding the GS108 at the outlet that feeds the HD Plex PSU but perhaps a second ground in the audiorack so that I have one groundconnection and I suppose grounding the PSU feeding the SOtM would work if the -0V in that is connected to USB ground. Then the DAC and amp would se that ground or am I wrong here? The only connection between the two 230v systems (network and audio) is the ethernet cable from switch to Sotm SMS Ultra. This is a jungle Main system TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D-TC, Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> Uptone etherREGEN -> dCS Network Bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, etherREGEN and NUC) Second system Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree Link to comment
sandyk Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 39 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said: As I have said probably the best system looks like this: no SMPS, just LPS, all outputs not grounded. ONE place in the system where the connected shields (signal shields, negatives of LPS outputs etc) are earthed. AC mains connections of the PS's are plugged into a single strip which does not have any form of filtering or "power conditioning" between outlets. Hi John Is this close enough to your ideal earthing set up, or can it be further improved ? My 15W Class A amplifier has 2 separate dual regulated PSUs in a separate 2U rack case, with the 0 volts of both regulator PCBs connected to mains earth. It uses a 160VA 21-0-21 screened toroidal with 2 sets of secondaty windings. There are also 2 X 18-0-18 30VA toroidals in the same case with their secondary windings feeding A.C. to each channel of the Class A Preamp. The secondary windings are not earthed, but the C.Ts are connected to the Preamp's chassis. The DIY DAC PSUs are floating, but only the case itself is earthed.The Outputs are DC coupled into the Preamp via decent quality coax interconnects. The input selector of the Preamp switches through both Signal and "earth" leads. The "earth"side of the DC coupled outputs from the Preamp are connected to 10 ohm earth lift resistors in the 15W Class A. I also have a banana plug lead which connects both Preamp and P.A. cases together, but it doesn't appear to make much difference. The output from the speakers is dead quiet in front of the speakers at max. preamp gain with no signal. Regards Alex How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Lobbster Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Thanks for the great info and insight! I’m trying to connect the dots and wondered if I got this correct; Applies to All SMPS somehow connected to the audio system. Ground & SMPS’s must go to the same power strip/outlet; A single ground plug can be used to ground multiple SMPS, as long as they are all powered by the same power strip/outlet; Use a Netgear FS or GS series 105 or 108 Switch as a Last Switch before Audio Endpoints to isolate HF Leakage; Keep the Last Switch “somewhat far” or “some distance” away from Audio Endpoints; Use the first or last port to connect Audio Endpoints and leave the port next to it empty; Do not use grounded STP Ethernet Cables. UTP are recommended. STP with Floating Ground is OK. STP using JSSG technique is best practice; I guess my question, what is “somewhat far” or “some distance” between the Last Switch and Audio Endpoints – a few feet or is there an optimal distance? Link to comment
JohnSwenson Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 The "keep it some distance" is to keep EMI from the "dirty side" Ethernet cable away from analog interconnects. In this context "close" is less than a foot or so, so for these purposes "somewhat far" is probably 5 feet or more. John S. MikeyFresh 1 Link to comment
Lobbster Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Thanks! 4 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said: The "keep it some distance" is to keep EMI from the "dirty side" Ethernet cable away from analog interconnects. In this context "close" is less than a foot or so, so for these purposes "somewhat far" is probably 5 feet or more. John S. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Hi @JohnSwenson If I have the following chain (everything plugged into one single simple powerstrip of course): Netgear GS105 with grounded DC plug > ultraRendu + Uptone LPS-1 (non-grounded 7.5Vdc Mean Well) > iFi iDAC2 USB DAC (bus powered by the ultraRendu) I guess (please correct me) the high impedance leakage has a path from the LPS-1's non-grounded Mean Well to the grounded GS105? This leakage path isn't through the DAC of course, it's through the ultraRendu. Is that ok? Is it really just the DAC we are trying to protect from leakage coming in? Or is it still best to ground the LPS-1's 7.5Vdc Mean Well, even in this setup above? Or is grounding both the LPS-1's 7.5Vdc Mean Well and the Netgear GS105 supposed to achieve something different? Cheers! Link to comment
JohnSwenson Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 The leakage from the un-grounded Mean Well may wind up going through something else, it depends where the DAC goes. If it has an on board headphone amp and you just use headphone, then the leakage can't get out of the DAC, if the DAC drives a preamp or power amp the leakage can go through the DAC to one of those, EVEN IF IT IS NOT GROUNDED. Leakage currents go through power supplies even if they just have two prong plugs. The DAC is probably the most sensitive component to leakage current, but not the only one. A renderer such as the ultraRendu is still susceptible to leakage, so setting up a system which deliberately feeds leakage through it is probably not a good idea. I would at least ground the Mean Well. An LPS-1 after the grounded Mean Well or some other good linear PS is even better. John S. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said: The leakage from the un-grounded Mean Well may wind up going through something else, it depends where the DAC goes. If it has an on board headphone amp and you just use headphone, then the leakage can't get out of the DAC, if the DAC drives a preamp or power amp the leakage can go through the DAC to one of those, EVEN IF IT IS NOT GROUNDED. Leakage currents go through power supplies even if they just have two prong plugs. The DAC is probably the most sensitive component to leakage current, but not the only one. A renderer such as the ultraRendu is still susceptible to leakage, so setting up a system which deliberately feeds leakage through it is probably not a good idea. I would at least ground the Mean Well. An LPS-1 after the grounded Mean Well or some other good linear PS is even better. John S. Cheers John. The DAC is feeding dad’s 70’s Sansui integrated amp. So then I assume it’s best (ideal) to ground BOTH the LPS-1’s Meanwell AND the GS105 which feeds the ultrarendu? No downsides to this double grounding ? Both are on the same powerstrip. RCA interconnects are your recommended Belden’s with the patented JSSG. Link to comment
Forehaven Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Does anyone know what the terminal plug is called (not the 2.5mm x 5mm pin)? Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's. . Link to comment
charlesphoto Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 GX-16 2 pin. Forehaven 1 SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)> LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. Link to comment
Forehaven Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Many Thanks Charles!! Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's. . Link to comment
ecwl Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 I have to say this tweak is very amazing. I ended up asking my audio dealer to make me a few ground cables with DC spades on one end for the SMPS and with banana plugs on the other which I can widen slightly to plug into the ground lead of a power plug. I was quite shocked by the sonic improvement just by grounding my router, NAS and cable modem. I also found out my Oppo BDP-103 SMPS and my TV PVR cable box were also not grounded so by taking the negative lead of an RCA plug, we grounded these components with another banana plug. Amazing. Something I wonder if @JohnSwenson can comment on is this: If some network switches with grounded SMPS can remove the high impedance leakage current noise, is there a way to build this function into our Ethernet to USB devices like UltraRendu. Of course, it creates new problems, like we wouldn't be able to power say UltraRendu with LPS-1 as we would need a grounded SMPS for power supply or we may need a separate cable running the UltraRendu Ethernet ground to a power plug. Or is it possible to build a small powered Ethernet ground filter whose sole purpose is to re-transmit the Ethernet signal onwards but ground the high impedance leakage current noise? Link to comment
sandyk Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, ecwl said: I also found out my Oppo BDP-103 SMPS and my TV PVR cable box were also not grounded so by taking the negative lead of an RCA plug, we grounded these components with another banana plug. Amazing. I obtained a worthwhile improvement with Coax SPDIF out by grounding my Teac STB However, I do not measure any meaningful A.C. voltage between my Oppo 103 and Earth How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
ecwl Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 17 minutes ago, sandyk said: I obtained a worthwhile improvement with Coax SPDIF out by grounding my Teac STB However, I do not measure any meaningful A.C. voltage between my Oppo 103 and Earth Right. The way my dealer showed me is that if you measure AC voltage between the active and the ground (with your device powered off), that means your SMPS is grounded because there's actually a circuit that you completed with your voltmeter. If you don't measure any AC voltage, that means the ground pin is actually not grounding the Oppo so the voltmeter cannot complete any circuit or measure any voltage. Perhaps someone with my expertise can correct me... Link to comment
sandyk Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 ecwl You have well and truly lost me here. I am not sure that your dealer knows what he is talking about, or perhaps he was using an old style Analogue Meter ? By "powered off" do you mean that it is plugged in, but not switched on ? Devices such as the Oppo 103 and Set Top Boxes are always partially switched on , as they need to respond to Remote Control commands. A Digital Multi Meter (DMM) is a high impedance device, and when measuring voltage it will typically have 10Megohm resistance. (depending on the actual meter and the voltage range) This amount of resistance will not affect the leakage voltage reading of an SMPS powered device to any extent. All that you need to do is switch your DMM to a > 100V A.C. range, and connect it between the case / earth side of the device's RCA output sockets, and Mains Earth of a mains socket, or the metal case of a device which is known to be earthed. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
ecwl Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 On 2017-10-05 at 2:51 PM, Superdad said: We are talking about determining if the DC output ground of the SMPS is common to the AC mains safety ground. So all you need do--with POWER OFF please--is put one probe of a continuity checker (the beeping setting of your multimeter) on whichever terminal of the internal SMPS is not the +DC (avoiding calling it "ground" on purpose), and the other probe on the ground pin of the IEC inlet. If you get a beep then the output of the device's SMPS is already grounded. If not, well then it is up to you as to if you wish to ground it (may void warranty, don't blame us for damage, etc.). Cheers, --Alex C. @sandyk I think you're right in saying that I didn't capture exactly what my dealer did. I think my dealer did something like what Superdad described above to check various devices. But we technically never checked the Oppo BDP-103. I just read somewhere that the ground pin is not connected for the Oppo BDP-103. But now that I googled the topic some more, it's clear that most people think Oppo BDP-103 has a grounded power supply so it doesn't need an additional ground wire. I guess it's time to unplug this. Thanks @sandyk Link to comment
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