SMPS and grounding

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Wow!  If you were to evaluate an ISO REGEN, I would ask that you do so with the removal of 12(!) items (devices, cables, PS) from your present chain.  

So you see, we ARE trying to simplify things...

 

Cheers to you,

--Alex C.

 

On the USB Chain, I would like to clarify, since ridicule and ignorance befuddle the intent to overcome USB limitations. The Icron and associated gear stays, to isolate an electrically and noisy computer from the listening room.

The USB chain changes from day to day, sometimes less even to the barest bones, so it is under constant review.

 

It appears that the ifi Galvanic3.0 won't be the saviour, due to either design or manufacturing flaws, we'll see. Certainly after your post Alex, a ISORegen won't be on the shopping list either. Daniel from Intona is working on a newer model USB Isolator, so will definitely put this design on the short list. It may take some time, there's lots of music to listen to.

 

Cheers,

 

[Superdad]

6 minutes ago, One and a half said:

 

On the USB Chain, I would like to clarify, since ridicule and ignorance befuddle the intent to overcome USB limitations. The Icron and associated gear stays, to isolate an electrically and noisy computer from the listening room.

The USB chain changes from day to day, sometimes less even to the barest bones, so it is under constant review.

 

It appears that the ifi Galvanic3.0 won't be the saviour, due to either design or manufacturing flaws, we'll see. Certainly after your post Alex, a ISORegen won't be on the shopping list either. Daniel from Intona is working on a newer model USB Isolator, so will definitely put this design on the short list. It may take some time, there's lots of music to listen to.

 

Cheers,

 

Very sorry if I offended you Gary, that certainly was not my intent.  You simply confused me with your indictment of the ISO REGEN as something that adds cables and complexity, when it does the reverse.  And when I went to look at your set up I was stuck by the irony of it.

Also I notice that you have the ICRON Ranger USB extender at the far end--as the last piece into your DAC.  From the standpoint of sonics I am convinced that is holding your entire system back and that with the ICRON as the last element you will never realize the benefits of improved USB signal integrity, impedance match, or clocking.  Might I suggest that you put a nice USB regenerator AFTER your ICRON--as the last piece before your DAC?  You should achieve a better result.

Best,

--Alex C.

[Speed Racer]

@One and a half

 

This is your chain:

 

USB chain (2017-11-11)
Computer USB 3.0 Port

-> Generic USB3 cable 1m

-> ifi Micro USB 3.0 Powered with iPower 9V 1.5A, 230V AC balanced powered]. Acoustic Revive RUT-1 USB filter

>  Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable 1m

-> Wyred 4 Sound Recovery [powered with iPower 9V 2.5A, 230V AC balanced powered]

-> SAEC SUS480 USB Cable 

-> Intona Standard Galvanic Isolator

-> Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable 1m
-> Icron Ranger 2212 USB Extender LEX 24VDC Powered with Acopian 3A, 24VDC Linear PSU 0V earthed

 -> 25m CAT5e 
 -> Icron Ranger 2212 USB Extender REX 
 -> Acoustic Revive USB-1.0SPS (Separate power and signal lines) (1m) 
-> DAC

 

I started down that path too. Luckily, I snapped out of it before it get too out of hand. Rob "Tubelover2" is really into that craziness and I think he does a disservice to the entire community.

 

I realized that complexity was not the answer but I also knew that USB was flawed and that had to be addressed. At first, my goal was to eliminate USB entirely. In fact, I would still like to do that. But the streamer/endpoint product I want does not seem to exist yet. My solution was to get a Ethernet-based streamer/endpoint with the cleanest USB output and upgrade my DAC so it had and excellent galvanically isolated USB input.

 

My chain is as follows:

 

iMac Roon Core

-> Cat6 UTP Ethernet cable

-> Netgear GS-108 switch (with SMPS DC "-"  tied to AC ground)

-> Cat6 UTP Ethernet cable

-> ultraRendu (iFi iPower 9v with DC "-"  tied to AC ground)

-> Straightwire USB cable (1 meter)

-> Yggdrasil (USB Gen 5)

 

That's it. Very simple and very clean. The audio system is galvanically isolated by Ethernet and the Yggdrasil is galvanically isolated from the ultraRendu by the Gen 5 USB board.

 

If the pull the network and the cables out of the chain, I have this:

 

iMac Roon Core

-> ultraRendu

-> Yggdrasil (USB Gen 5)

 

I will eventually get a much better power supply for the ultraRendu and I may play with the USB cable a bit to see if I find something better. But the my nervosa has been cured! 

 

You still have this:

 

Computer USB 3.0 Port

-> ifi Micro USB 3.0 Powered with iPower 9V 1.5A, 230V AC balanced powered]. Acoustic Revive RUT-1 USB filter

-> Wyred 4 Sound Recovery [powered with iPower 9V 2.5A, 230V AC balanced powered]

-> Intona Standard Galvanic Isolator

-> Icron Ranger 2212 USB Extender LEX 24VDC Powered with Acopian 3A, 24VDC Linear PSU 0V earthed

 -> Icron Ranger 2212 USB Extender REX 
-> DAC

 

By the sounds of it, your nervosa is running rampant still as you look for more and more pieces to add to the puzzle.

[MikeyFresh]

2 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

points 1 and 3 of my post are irrefutable.

 

That maybe true, however point 3 is no big surprise or revelation. Of course a JS-2 is better, we'd all like to have one I'm sure but sometimes a lack available funds or other considerations make that impossible or just very delayed.

 

As for point 1, I don't dispute your personal experience, but I do offer my own which is very different. I have 7 different iPower units, (3) 5 volt, (3) 9 volt, and (1) 12 volt, and they have all worked flawlessly for at least a couple of years now.

 

So if the funds for a JS-2 or other quality LPS are just not available, a decent stop-gap measure exists in the iPower, I used the 9 volt version with my microRendu for many months until the LPS-1 became available, and the sound didn't suck.

 

Ditto the 12 volt version I used initially on a DSPeaker Anti mode 2.0, not bad until such time as I could afford to buy a proper LPS for it.

 

Would I like it better if it were $25 instead of $50? You bet.

 

 

 

 

[Superdad]

Okay guys, let's not give @One and a half too hard a time.  And let's not divert this thread into a discussion of power supply performance. (Lots of fine choices on the market these days.)

 

Back to SMPS and grounding for network switches, etc. 

[MikeyFresh]

7 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Okay guys, let's give @One and a half too hard a time.  And let's not divert this thread into a discussion of power supply performance. (Lots of fine choices on the market these days.)

 

Back to SMPS and grounding for network switches, etc. 

 

Except that my post was not directed at @One and a half at all (he wasn't quoted), and the iPower is on-topic to the extent that it does benefit from the JSGT shunt method.

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

iMac Roon Core

-> Cat6 UTP Ethernet cable

-> Netgear GS-108 switch (with SMPS DC "-"  tied to AC ground)

-> Cat6 UTP Ethernet cable

-> ultraRendu (iFi iPower 9v with DC "-"  tied to AC ground)

-> Straightwire USB cable (1 meter)

-> Yggdrasil (USB Gen 5)

 

Did you find adding JSGT to the iFi in addition made a difference in your system ?

(As I understand the main rule is to do the switch when used the way you have done).

 

If you haven’t done/tried yet, spend $35 on a USPCB ?

[Speed Racer]

51 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Did you find adding JSGT to the iFi in addition made a difference in your system ?

(As I understand the main rule is to do the switch when used the way you have done).

 

If you haven’t done/tried yet, spend $35 on a USPCB ?

 

I have not directly compared it yet. It just made sense to do so I did it.

[jamesg11]

So, take away on the usb cabling - what should I use for my music files hd into macmini?

/& do Ghent have an off-the-shelf equivalent?

[One and a half]

@Speed Racer, thanks for the breakdown of your system using Ethernet. When the xRendu were available, I compared Ethernet to USB, the the fixes and components are much the same, much more if FOC is involved. The relentless provisioning of power supplies and their leakage paths are the same for USB components, and I already have USB parts to use, why complicate things even more.

 

At the moment, the configuration is without the MicroUSB so PC | Intona | Icron | DAC.

[One and a half]

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

Also I notice that you have the ICRON Ranger USB extender at the far end--as the last piece into your DAC.  From the standpoint of sonics I am convinced that is holding your entire system back and that with the ICRON as the last element you will never realize the benefits of improved USB signal integrity, impedance match, or clocking.  Might I suggest that you put a nice USB regenerator AFTER your ICRON--as the last piece before your DAC?  You should achieve a better result.

Best,

--Alex C.

 

No apology required.

 

The Icron is transparent, it shows all the attributes, good and bad of USB, warts and all.

It is NOT the routeable device from PSAUDIO, the Icron Ranger 2214 is a 'straight' USB extender with a linear PSU (0V grounded), have it for about three years now. 

If I added a USB fixer closer to the DAC, the PSU is a major drawback as to where it's sourced from as I don't have any more cabling between the computer and the listening room left. 

Been through all combos of using Ethernet cable for AES3 without the Icron from MC3-+USB direct to DAC, all sorts. The DAC works better using USB.

[R1200CL]

8 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

So, take away on the usb cabling - what should I use for my music files hd into macmini?

/& do Ghent have an off-the-shelf equivalent?

 

Are you after a new USB cable between your stored music and your Mac Mini ?

Not sure if that will affect your setup at all.

 

Maybe switch out the mac ?

https://www.audiostream.com/content/intel-nuc-sonictransporter-tale-two-mini-computers-running-roon-core#6DAVgJxI52CrLvlt.97

 

Or at least add:

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk

 

You could of cause externally power your disks, but not sure of that really would help, as you're using network and the UR.

 

Or you could use SATA interface to your disks, which require something else.

Not sure I fully understand your question. If your after a special custom made cable, you can email Ghent.

 

It seems to me you have a very good setup. But do you find adding the Iso Regen after the UltraRendu making things better ?

 

[tboooe]

Guys a question.  I am trying to figure out if its worth trying this grounding technique on my power cables...I use some Synergistic Research power cords which have "active shielding" that requires a SMPS.  Is it possible for SMPS leakage to go through the AC power cord, into my equipment and eventually into the rest of my system?

 

Here is the explanation of active shielding:

Our first experiments with Active Shielding began early in 1996, and involved the placement of batteries in a static circuit, with the positive annode of the battery tied to a conductor running the length of a cable, and the negative annode of the battery tied to the shield. These initial prototypes subjectively improved performance in the high frequencies. However, they also increased the noise floor (especially on long runs), with the positive conductor running the length of the cable (and not being terminated to signal or ground) thus acting like an antenna picking up RFI and EMI.

We then experimented with closed circuits, where the shield carried a DC current, with a buffer circuit between shield and ground and separate conductors carrying the ground signal. This closed circuit design not only improved subjective performance, but also made our cables measureably quieter, thus improving detail with greater frequency extension from top to bottom. Since a closed circuit draws current, we could no longer use batteries, as this would drain a battery in a matter of hours.

[lmitche]

9 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Guys a question.  I am trying to figure out if its worth trying this grounding technique on my power cables...I use some Synergistic Research power cords which have "active shielding" that requires a SMPS.  Is it possible for SMPS leakage to go through the AC power cord, into my equipment and eventually into the rest of my system?

 

Here is the explanation of active shielding:

Our first experiments with Active Shielding began early in 1996, and involved the placement of batteries in a static circuit, with the positive annode of the battery tied to a conductor running the length of a cable, and the negative annode of the battery tied to the shield. These initial prototypes subjectively improved performance in the high frequencies. However, they also increased the noise floor (especially on long runs), with the positive conductor running the length of the cable (and not being terminated to signal or ground) thus acting like an antenna picking up RFI and EMI.

We then experimented with closed circuits, where the shield carried a DC current, with a buffer circuit between shield and ground and separate conductors carrying the ground signal. This closed circuit design not only improved subjective performance, but also made our cables measureably quieter, thus improving detail with greater frequency extension from top to bottom. Since a closed circuit draws current, we could no longer use batteries, as this would drain a battery in a matter of hours.

Given the ease and low cost of implementation, why not give it a try? I suspect you will be postively surprised.

[tboooe]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

Given the ease and low cost of implementation, why not give it a try? I suspect you will be postively surprised.

Agreed, I am going to Home Depot today to pick up an AC plug.

 

But my nerdy side is just curious about the theory so if by placebo I hear an improvement I can point to a reason. 

[Forehaven]

23 hours ago, Forehaven said:

Can the use of these grounding shunts cause ground loop noise?  Or what about one unused ground wire that's attached to the grounding plug, but has no jssg shunt on it?

??

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, tboooe said:

Agreed, I am going to Home Depot today to pick up an AC plug.

 

But my nerdy side is just curious about the theory so if by placebo I hear an improvement I can point to a reason. 

 

Hi Tommy,

 

The theory is the same: that SMPS is very likely producing "high source impedance" noise. We just don't know how much, unless JS could measure it. So now:

1. If you hear an SQ improvement, you congratulate yourself for whacking another noise mole, because you clearly shunted this SMPS noise.
2. If you hear no improvement, you can attribute it to the fact that the smart folks at Synergistic may have already grounded it - some SMPSes do, after all, already have this.

Either way, you've got a theory to back your findings. QED.  

[ted_b]

So here is a weird one:  I installed a JS shunt on my LPS-1's Meanwell.  A couple days later I am hearing a slight buzz in my speakers (no music), on and off, cycling every few seconds.  I go and find my Meanwell power supply green light is dim and cycling on and off at the same rate as the buzzing.  I unhooked the shunt and the Meanwell green light got brighter and stayed on; buzzing cycle gone.  Then added the shunt back in and all is well...so far.

 

What was that?

[tboooe]

Just now, ted_b said:

I installed a JS shunt on my LPS-1's Meanwell. 

Ted, did you hear any improvement with the shunt for the LPS-1 power supply?

[Superdad]

21 minutes ago, ted_b said:

So here is a weird one:  I installed a JS shunt on my LPS-1's Meanwell.  A couple days later I am hearing a slight buzz in my speakers (no music), on and off, cycling every few seconds.  I go and find my Meanwell power supply green light is dim and cycling on and off at the same rate as the buzzing.  I unhooked the shunt and the Meanwell green light got brighter and stayed on; buzzing cycle gone.  Then added the shunt back in and all is well...so far.

 

What was that?

 

Hmm... (or should I say bzzz?).  We will look into this.  

[JohnSwenson]

36 minutes ago, ted_b said:

So here is a weird one:  I installed a JS shunt on my LPS-1's Meanwell.  A couple days later I am hearing a slight buzz in my speakers (no music), on and off, cycling every few seconds.  I go and find my Meanwell power supply green light is dim and cycling on and off at the same rate as the buzzing.  I unhooked the shunt and the Meanwell green light got brighter and stayed on; buzzing cycle gone.  Then added the shunt back in and all is well...so far.

 

What was that?

Hi Ted,

I think this is a combination of the shunt and what the LPS-1 does under high load. What you are witnessing can happen when the LPS-1 is feeding current right at the edge of what it is capable of. This causes it to bank switch quickly (about 3 seconds between switches). The current the LPS-1 pulls from the Meanwell is not constant. When charging a bank the current is low then quickly ramps up to  a maximum. At the maximum it is drawing close to the maximum the Meanwell can supply.

 

The shunt adds a little bit of extra resistance to the path from Meanwell to LPS-1, dropping the voltage a little bit, which causes the LPS-1 to pull more current which drops the voltage even more. At this point the Meanwell is REALLY struggling to supply enough power to the LPS-1 which is why the LED dims, you get buzzing etc.

 

First off you want to check your shunt, make sure you are using thick wires between the connectors and that the screws on the connectors are really tight. Most likely you just have too much resistance in the path.

 

If you are already using the biggest wire you can fit in the connector and everything is really tight then you might need to switch to something like the Groundhog which clips onto the barrel of the existing plug.

 

I have extensively used the shunt with Meanwell and LPS-1 and not seen this problem, so it is most likely either too high a resistance in the shunt or just some normal tolerances in either the LPS-1 or Meanwell, either the LPS-1 is drawing slightly more current than normal (there is a 1% tolerance on the components determining the current), or your Meanwell can supply just slightly less than others.

 

John S.

[ted_b]

John,

Thanks.  I'm using solid copper 14awg between the connectors, but using thin Silicon green wire as my ground to AC plug.  I may have found the culprit as the green wire soon afterward pulled out of the plug and have since tightened it down much better.  I will report back if the Meanwell huffs and puffs again.  Thx

[Monge]

Now we learned the great Ground shunt by Jonn Swenson og we learned something about dual magnetic boxes in switches.

Now I keep asking myself, which other things in a switch could possible influence "SQ" so to speak.

Clocks, regulators, caps and different chip, Broadcom, Realtek etc.?

I just can't stop wondering.

 

 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Monge said:

which other things in a switch could possible influence "SQ" so to speak.

 

Mu-metal ?

 

Wrap it in...

 

[Forehaven]

John, I too have some buzzing now with the shunts, but I used like Ted, the 24g silicon tinned wire for the shunts.  Are you now saying we should be using something like 12-16g wire instead to help overcome some 'shunt resistance'?