SMPS and grounding

[octaviars]

16 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Is it a Gophert you have ? (Yes, I see now from answer below)

I have one myself. Have not used it yet. The plan is to test it on my SonicTransporter i5, as two LPS-1 in series didn’t manage. 

 

 

Yes I have a Gophert but only bought it to have as a PSU to test equipment what volt and amperage they work with. Tested my NUC with ROON ROCK the other day and that worked well between 19-12vdc and 0,5-0,8A I will use linear PSU on my equipment. 

[octaviars]

On 2017-11-11 at 8:52 PM, JohnSwenson said:

Note that this is from leakage, if you stop the leakage from flowing through the cable, all this cable stuff above makes no difference.

 

Just some more food for thought.

 

John S.

 

So if you put a Netgear GS108 in the middle of the network and router, NUC with Roon ROCK and endpoint is connected to the GS108 with grounded PSU solve all leakage in the system?

 

My question is based on my thoughts about grounding more than one PSU (I have a 4 rail PSU that have separate ground for each output) and grounding all 4 will make all connected equipment have the same ground and no isolation between the connected equipment on the DC voltage.

 

As you write if leakage is stoped the used ethernetcable will have less impact and the use of ordinarie UTP cable is ok?

 

What are your thoughts on this @JohnSwenson? 

[tapatrick]

On 09/11/2017 at 1:27 AM, Superdad said:

 

[That story is not near as interesting as my turning down a job offer from Paul Allen/Bill Gates in 1981--because I had just moved back to L.A. to do audio with my Hovland buddies and had a serious girlfriend.  I was just 20 years old and Gates had more pimples than me!] 

Glad you didn’t take the job Alex, we wouldn’t have the Regens and LPS1 ...?

[Superdad]

14 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

I would imagine the iFi iPower would be an excellent power supply if you tied the negative DC output to ground as suggested by John in this thread. Does anyone have measurements of the iFi thusly grounded?

 

Please remember that shunting an SMPS unit's zero-volt output ("ground") to the AC mains ground only takes care of the high-impedance leakage that John has measured. All SMPS (including the iFi iPower) still have copious amounts of low-impedance leakage which this trick does not take care of (but which is blocked by an LPS-1 and of course is not even there with an LPS or a battery).

[Monge]

On 11/11/2017 at 8:52 PM, JohnSwenson said:

Note that this is from leakage, if you stop the leakage from flowing through the cable, all this cable stuff above makes no difference.

 

Just some more food for thought.

 

John S.

 

I’ve tried the ground shunt on my Netgear GS108 V.4 and it works like a charm. Thank you very much 

Are you saying, that if the Netgear are grounded and we use GS 108 port 1 for Audio Edpoint and port 3 for router. Then we don’t have to worry about the ethernet cable we use. We Can use Supra Cat8 with shield connected In both ends if we want?

Thanks for all your work.

[R1200CL]

9 minutes ago, Monge said:

Supra Cat8

 

Is those plugs really connected to the shield ? Did you measure ? The Vodka is not.

[Monge]

41 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Is those plugs really connected to the shield ? Did you measure ? The Vodka is not.

No I did NOT messure it. So I’m not sure. But the point was if we could use any Ethernet cable cat 6 UTP or cat7 STP or cat8 STP, (Supra), when the Netgear GS108 v4 is grounded? 

Sorry for not being clear.

[octaviars]

40 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Is those plugs really connected to the shield ? Did you measure ? The Vodka is not.

 

The old Supra CAT7 have the shield connected to the plugs so I think it is the same on the new CAT8.

[R1200CL]

16 minutes ago, Monge said:

No I did NOT messure it. So I’m not sure. But the point was if we could use any Ethernet cable cat 6 UTP or cat7 STP or cat8 STP, when the Netgear GS108 v4 is grounded? 

Sorry for not being clear.

 

I think the correct question is more if a shielded cable with metal plugs connected to the shield

vs not the shield connected  ?

 

As the type of Ethernet cable for the JSGT with those switches should not matter, unless if shielded in the connector. (Meaning the cable questions has been answered already) Lets hope we get an answer.

 

But then John would need to know if that metal of the connector is connected to the chassis or not. You may have to look into that as well for the devices in use. 

You may find answerers in the standards thy claim they comply with. 

 

Don't mix JSGT vs. JSSG ?

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, Monge said:

I’ve tried the ground shunt on my Netgear GS108 V.4 and it works like a charm. Thank you very much 

Are you saying, that if the Netgear are grounded and we use GS 108 port 1 for Audio Edpoint and port 3 for router. Then we don’t have to worry about the ethernet cable we use. We Can use Supra Cat8 with shield connected In both ends if we want?

Thanks for all your work.

That is a very good question.

 

In a situation with UTP (or STP with shields not connected) leakage current goes through one transformer to the ground plane which is "earthed". This combination works. If you use shielded cable and connect the shield at both ends you bypass the transformer in the switch. Whether this will still shunt the high impedance leakage from other devices I have no idea. It may, it may not, it depends on the mechanism for how this happens.

 

What I can say is that if the shield is NOT connected the upstream high impedance leakage IS shunted, if you want to use connected shield I cannot say that. You are certainly free to try whatever you want, I just can't guarantee that the connected shield configuration will behave in the same way. 

 

I CAN say that if you use a connected shield cable from the switch to the endpoint, all the leakage will NOT be blocked.

 

John S.

[Monge]

47 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

That is a very good question.

 

In a situation with UTP (or STP with shields not connected) leakage current goes through one transformer to the ground plane which is "earthed". This combination works. If you use shielded cable and connect the shield at both ends you bypass the transformer in the switch. Whether this will still shunt the high impedance leakage from other devices I have no idea. It may, it may not, it depends on the mechanism for how this happens.

 

What I can say is that if the shield is NOT connected the upstream high impedance leakage IS shunted, if you want to use connected shield I cannot say that. You are certainly free to try whatever you want, I just can't guarantee that the connected shield configuration will behave in the same way. 

 

I CAN say that if you use a connected shield cable from the switch to the endpoint, all the leakage will NOT be blocked.

 

John S.

Thanks for a clear answer 

I won’t buy or use Lan cables with shield connected to plugs.

[One and a half]

On 11/13/2017 at 4:58 AM, Superdad said:

 

Of course I am biased, but I own both the above devices, so I can suggest to you that the most musical solution might be to replace both with an ISO REGEN!   Don't know that you have ever tried one Gary.

--Alex C.

Hi Alex,

 

I have not tried an ISOREGEN, since it needs also needs LPS-1, JS-2 (forget the AC unfriendly Meanwell) to work with it, plus quite a few connecting cables, USB connectors of the inverting kind and now shorting to ground links. When you elected to build the units this way, there was little/no choice to include them in the one box, I did ask at the time of the release of the ISOREGEN. That's why there's been no order to Uptone and went to ifi instead, since their one box uses USB3.0 bus power, one cable in and out.

 

What I would appreciate though is to use Uptone technology inside a DAC as a joint venture, where all the cables are hidden and paths are short.

[ambre]

On 13-11-2017 at 12:42 AM, JohnSwenson said:

Yes a separate shield around the existing cable, when properly connected with a wire end to end will block a large amount of the emissions from the existing cable.

 

John S.

 

Dear John S,

 

I have modified my Ethernet cable CAT6 as you suggested.  Disconnected respectively interupted the inside shield wire and aluminium foil at both ends. Soldered  a ground from end to end connecting the shield wires. Sort kind of a "loop"  I suppose?

 

Immediately audible and indeed another SQ -improvement.   Less than grounding my Meanwell SMPS & Sbooster Ultra feeding the Uptone Regen(Amber) and grounding of my Netgear GS105 switch as you suggested earlier thread.

 

Do I ground TOO Much?   Nevertheless my SQ has improved within a week spectacular with very easy DIY tricks!

Ps. More tips and tricks are highly recommended.

 

Best regards, Andreas

 

 

[R1200CL]

5 minutes ago, ambre said:

Ps. More tips and tricks are highly recommended.

 

Did you read this one:

 

[ambre]

Yes I did and all other posts of John Swenson,and Super-daddy  

[Forehaven]

Can the use of these grounding shunts cause ground loop noise?  Or what about one unused ground wire that's attached to the grounding plug, but has no jssg shunt on it?

[tboooe]

I am jumping in late to this thread so please forgive me if I am asking a redundant question (I've only gotten through the first 15 pages):

 

It seems grounding the negative DC output is most effective with SMPS as it greatly reduces high freq noise.  By definition linear power supplies do not have this high frequency noise issue but they have low frequency noise issues.  So John's grounding technique does not have as big of an impact on linear power supplies correct?  I saw some posts that stated little to no improvement was heard grounding the DC output of a linear power supply.

 

There was also mention of this technique benefiting some network switches. If I have a fiber switch (Cisco SG-300) grounding the DC input wont have any benefit?  

[BigGuy]

Just read about this alternative to wall warts...and maybe Gopherts tho' it is not adjustable.

 

https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/

Wonder how it stacks up noise-wise?

[auricgoldfinger]

40 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Just read about this alternative to wall warts...and maybe Gopherts tho' it is not adjustable.

 

https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/

Wonder how it stacks up noise-wise?

 

Junky, and you still need to use the JSGT.  No reason to spend $50 on it. 

[BigGuy]

18 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Junky, and you still need to use the JSGT.  No reason to spend $50 on it. 

Observation or personal experience?  Junky...construction, noise, SQ, all of the above?

 

Sorry, but I cannot justify or afford to use $400-$1000 LPS to power devices such as the IsoRegen...or other LPS.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 minute ago, BigGuy said:

Observation or personal experience?  Junky...construction, noise, SQ, all of the above?

 

1. Bought two units, and one stopped working after a few months.

2. John S has said it is one of the noisiest power supplies he has tested. 

3. When powering a microRendu, the sound quality was horrible compared to a JS-2 linear power supply.

 

I suppose you can mitigate some of the noise with John's grounding technique, but you can use a less expensive SMPS and get the same result.

 

I have a like new unit sitting in a box.  If you really want to buy one, PM me and I'll make you an offer.

[Superdad]

10 hours ago, One and a half said:

I have not tried an ISOREGEN, since it needs also needs LPS-1, JS-2 (forget the AC unfriendly Meanwell) to work with it, plus quite a few connecting cables, USB connectors of the inverting kind and now shorting to ground links. When you elected to build the units this way, there was little/no choice to include them in the one box, I did ask at the time of the release of the ISOREGEN. That's why there's been no order to Uptone and went to ifi instead, since their one box uses USB3.0 bus power, one cable in and out.

 

Thanks for your reply Gary.  But to be clear, unlike the larger boxes you use, the ISO REGEN (with included USPCB A>B Adapter and light weight to go right into DAC) does not require an extra USB cable. And it also draws less that half the current (from the bus or from whatever PS is used with it) than the competing product (I have one and have measured).  We put the money into the clock and the ultra-low-noise regs, not into elaborate methods to run from bus power.

And with regards to a PS for the ISO REGEN, nobody says one needs to use a premium UpTone model.

 

Quote

What I would appreciate though is to use Uptone technology inside a DAC as a joint venture, where all the cables are hidden and paths are short.

 

Perhaps, but will you then eliminate all the rest of your spaghetti chain?  Your up-to-date profile lists the following as your chain:

USB chain (2017-11-11)
Computer USB 3.0 Port

-> Generic USB3 cable 1m

-> ifi Micro USB 3.0 Powered with iPower 9V 1.5A, 230V AC balanced powered]. Acoustic Revive RUT-1 USB filter

>  Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable 1m

-> Wyred 4 Sound Recovery [powered with iPower 9V 2.5A, 230V AC balanced powered]

-> SAEC SUS480 USB Cable 

-> Intona Standard Galvanic Isolator

-> Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable 1m
-> Icron Ranger 2212 USB Extender LEX 24VDC Powered with Acopian 3A, 24VDC Linear PSU 0V earthed

 -> 25m CAT5e 
 -> Icron Ranger 2212 USB Extender REX 
 -> Acoustic Revive USB-1.0SPS (Separate power and signal lines) (1m) 
-> DAC

 

Wow!  If you were to evaluate an ISO REGEN, I would ask that you do so with the removal of 12(!) items (devices, cables, PS) from your present chain.  

So you see, we ARE trying to simplify things...

 

Cheers to you,

--Alex C.

[BigGuy]

5 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

1. Bought two units, and one stopped working after a few months.

2. John S has said it is one of the noisiest power supplies he has tested. 

3. When powering a microRendu, the sound quality was horrible compared to a JS-2 linear power supply.

 

I suppose you can mitigate some of the noise with John's grounding technique, but you can use a less expensive SMPS and get the same result.

 

I have a like new unit sitting in a box.  If you really want to buy one, PM me and I'll make you an offer.

Thank you for enlightening me and others, Auric.  Was not aware that JohnS had evaluated this SMPS.

 

Thanks for the offer on the LPS but will treat my SMPS with recommended grounding for now.

[Superdad]

16 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

2. John S has said it is one of the noisiest power supplies he has tested. 

 

No, John never said that!  

He has never tested the output noise of the iFi iPower (properly measuring very low PS output noise--across wide bandwidth is not a trivial procedure) and we do not make broad statements against our competitors.

 

What John did measure and say about the iPower SMPS is that its leakage current profile (both high- and low-impedance as at the time he had not sorted the difference) was one of the wildest he has seen. (I have the graphs to concur but it is not appropriate to post them).  And the iPower benefits from John's ground shunt trick just as other SMPS units do.

 

It is a fact--with no intention to denigrate the good value of their piece--that the iPower is an SMPS wall-wart (with switching noise and leakage just as all others) that iFi has added several parts to produce a unit with much lower output noise than a typical SMPS, though they only state doing so across the audio bandwidth.

 

I am uncomfortable--though partially culpable I see--with this discussion veering into commentary about our competitors' products.  We respect iFi Audio and they seem to respect us.  I would like to keep it that way.

Thanks,

--Alex C.

[auricgoldfinger]

Just now, Superdad said:

 

No, John never said that!  

He has never tested the output noise of the iFi iPower (properly measuring very low PS output noise--across wide bandwidth is not a trivial procedure) and we do not make broad statements against our competitors.

 

What John did measure and say about the iPower SMPS is that its leakage current profile (both high- and low-impedance as at the time he had not sorted the difference) was one of the wildest he has seen. (I have the graphs to concur but it is not appropriate to post them).

 

It is a fact--with no intention to denigrate the good value of their piece--that the iPower is an SMPS wall-wart (with switching noise and leakage just as all others) that iFi has added several parts to produce a unit with much lower output noise than a typical SMPS, though they only state doing so across the audio bandwidth.

 

I am uncomfortable--though partially culpable I see--with this discussion veering into commentary about our competitors' products.  We respect iFi Audio and they seem to respect us.  I would like to keep it that way.

Thanks,

--Alex C.

 

My apologies to both John and you.  Sometimes I get lost amidst all of the technical information.

 

That being said, points 1 and 3 of my post are irrefutable.