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Okay, well, that was interesting. Very nice indeed. Heard both the Maximus+ and the Aragorns, the latter with the Omnis and the bass stands. Have to say, I'm impressed. I'm even more curious as to the pair of subwoofers-as-a-stand option for the Maximus+. Throw in the Omnis, and you have sub-$6k speaker system that goes spelunking. Can you say it with me: "Hmmmm ...."

 

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Scot, yep I live in Richmond, VA and I'd be happy to have you over to hear them.

 

Ideally you would be able to hear them in your own room with your own equipment. I think that's where the bricks and mortar retailers add value today - letting you take home equipment to try it before buying it. Many e-tailers offer a 30 day right of return to level the playing field. That's easy to do with electronics, but more difficult with speakers, although I know the USA Emerald Physics dealer offers this option - but you pay for it.

 

I drove up to Michigan to meet Dr. Earl Geddes and hear his speakers for myself. Perhaps Earl will offer this option someday.

 

Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire & USB > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Hypex NCORE 400 > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo & Geddes Band Pass Subs // DH Labs Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B

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Both the Aragorns/Bass Stand and Maximus+/Subwoofer stand is what I would be interested in for quality audio and HT. While they are low in sensitivity, I think they'd pair well with Wyred4Sound amplification.

 

BPT 3.5 Ultra/Reference 3A Reflectors/MSB Technology S201 Amplifier/MSB Technology Analog DAC/MSB Technology Network Renderer/Audirvana +

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I'm having a very hard time crunching the numbers in a way that doesn't favor the M&D "solution". No, it doesn't do tubes. AT ALL. I suppose if I feel compelled, I could add a tube pre. But they sure are interesting. And yeah, Wyred was my first thought -- especially when they release their Reference amps, supposedly at some point in the next 30 days or so. Their pre is, to all reports, outstanding. Going that route I think brings the whole kit in at just about $10k, which is something of a miracle. LOL.

 

@Earflappin -- might have to take you up on that! I'm up here in Redneck (I mean Frederick), MD and I travel down to Richmond about 1/month on business. If you could spare an hour in March, I'd be much obliged.

 

Oh, forgot to add this:

 

My M&D dealer also mentioned having 2 pairs of Aragorns and 2 pairs of Bel Canto Ref1000m's in his studio at one point. For kicks, he ran a y-cable out of his DAC3 into both sets of amps and set up all 4 speakers, two toed-in and two straight-on. Not being present to have witnessed this monstrosity, I can only report the look of wondrous awe that spread over his face as he described the scene. I figured, hey, well that's one way to solve a dispersion issue!

 

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Scot, I sent you a private message with my contact information. Be glad to host you in March when you're in Richmond.

 

Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire & USB > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Hypex NCORE 400 > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo & Geddes Band Pass Subs // DH Labs Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B

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Scot

 

Over the weekend i listened to a pair of Audio Note An-E Spe and came away impressed. It was an all audio note system and just drew you into the music. Forget about the claimed 18hz (-6db) which is based on corner placement. But these were very good....worth a listen. Also heard the AG Duos ; again, impressive - had to stop listening - didnt want to spoil my ears !

 

I also found a circa 1989 pair of Stax (!) ELS-F83X. No bass below 40, pathetic sensitivity (78), cant go loud, not very dynamic....couldn't resist and bought them for how they did everything else.

 

[br]Mac Mini > Lio-8 > Graaf Gm-20 > Stax ESL-F83x[br]Ipod / Wadia Dock / Wadia 830 > ULN-2 > Krell KAV400xi > B&W 805

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I am a bit jealous you had the evidence temptations. I heard those speaker about 10 years ago at a demo in Berlin with Dynaudio´s own electronic (what were they called? dynaudio arbiter?) and a Linn front-end. The sound was so real that I just couldn´t believe it. That was my start as an audiophile. Chasing that sound since then.

 

Earflappin, how did you connect multiple subs to the Lynx / Berkley? Don´t you need a multichannel pre-amp to do so? Or am I missing smth? I read 4 subs is the optimal setting to get rid of room nodes if they are set-up properly. I would be very interested how such a setup would look like on the electronics side.

 

Best!

 

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Johniboy, the Berkeley has two sets of analog outputs. I use one of them to go line level into the first servo sub - the other subs have a pass through which allows me to daisy chain them. This works well, but I'm thinking of either getting a active cross over box like the Behringer or something similar OR if I go with a Metric Halo ULN-8 DAC using it to do the multiple subs out. And yes, I think 3-4 small subs (10'12" cone) is optimal. For some people, however, their room aesthetics might not accommodate this set-up.

 

Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire & USB > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Hypex NCORE 400 > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo & Geddes Band Pass Subs // DH Labs Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B

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and this works well? don´t you need some kind of signal processing (like you said, an active crossover) to adjust the phase and everything? my dcs elgar also has a second analog output and i am thinking about experimenting with 2 additional woofers. how did you adjust yours? by hearing or more by measuring the room response curves?

 

oh, and one more question. i just checked the manual of a dynaudio sub. it has a mono line input. which channel do you connect it to? left or right??

 

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I know its probably sacrilege, but couldn't you just use a "Y" connector like the ones Vampire makes from your analog outputs from the Alpha, into the subs?

 

\"It would be a mistake to demonize any particular philosophy. To do so forces people into entrenched positions and encourages the adoption of unhelpful defensive reactions, thus missing the opportunity for constructive dialog\"[br] - Martin Colloms - stereophile.com

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johniboy, each of my subs has phase, crossover, level and even PEQ (which I don't use) - so each sub is adjustable. I tuned them using a handheld frequency analyzer. I connect both left and right channels - although the sub just sums the two channels so you could go mono into either the left or right input of the sub.

 

And, yes, one could use a Y connector as well.

 

Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire & USB > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Hypex NCORE 400 > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo & Geddes Band Pass Subs // DH Labs Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B

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I have listened to quite a few systems as a part of my acoustic design and calibration business. They really are a top flight contender, the only elements I would score them down on would be on imaging - I've never got truly 3D imaging out of them like I've heard from top of the line 2 way monitors. But this isn't to say that they don't do soundstaging. On the contrary they throw a huge left to right soundstage with substantial depth and precision localization of instruments and sounds within the soundstage is phenomenal. They are just by character, slightly diffuse for want of a better word compared to the really solid, 3D, tangible center image created by some speakers.

 

On all other measures of sound quality - dynamics (both macro and micro), response, clarity they are world class. I haven't heard any system yet that can pull as much low level detailing and acoustic signatures (e.g. of different recording spaces) as the Orions can. And the feeling of open-ness and being immersed in the music rather than listening to a pair of speakers has also not been equaled. Something to do with their dipole radiation pattern I feel.

 

I have lived with them for 5 years which should be an indication of how highly I rate them. Some comparisons: Zu Essence, Vandersteen 5s, DynAudio Confidence, Avant Garde Duos, DynAudio Confidennce, Avalon Indra / Eidolon, etc, etc

 

My theoretical best speaker at this time would be a) dipole or omnidirectional b) would be a sat/sub system with 2 or 3 subs c) actively crossed over in DSP d) all channels amplified separately e) have linear phase parametric EQ capability built in somewhere. Note that I also theoretically agree (although have not heard) with the approach taken by builders using constant directivity or controlled directivity approaches: either you eliminate early reflections through controlling dispersion or you ensure that reflections are spectrally equivalent to the direct sound.

 

Nyal Mellor, Acoustic Frontiers LLC.

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@Earflappin -- so, if you're daisy-chaining them, then essentially you're running your dual subs in mono, not stereo, no? If that's correct, have you considered options to actually run them as stereo subs -- each sub getting only one channel of info at a time? Not sure how much this actually helps, but I'm told that it is perceptible, especially as you move out of the subterranean.

 

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Scot, I've experimented a bit with stereo vs mono subs and to my ears I can't tell a difference. Remember I'm crossing over the subs at 40-50hz. If I recall correctly there are studies out there that have proven that human ears are not directionally sensitive to LF below 80hz or so. Perhaps Nyal could comment as he seems to be at a higher pay grade than the rest of us technically speaking anyway.... :-)

 

Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire & USB > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Hypex NCORE 400 > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo & Geddes Band Pass Subs // DH Labs Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B

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Hi Scot:

From reading your original post I gather you want to maintain a critical listening position with a secondary off axis sweet spot, along with an additional lower octave, all on a low budget with full range “non-beaming” speakers which must be highly efficient so you can use tube amps.

 

After reading all the speaker advice and your replies I was wondering if everyone is making the situation too complex. Has anyone ever heard of Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) - The principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one.

 

My point being, Scot, have you ever considered the simple solution of moving your desk? Is there some natural law of furniture placement I am not aware of?

 

Over the years I have witnessed a number of stereo systems in long narrow rooms with wonderful sound. It is all a matter of selecting the speakers you like, placement of the speakers and adjusting the acoustical room treatments to enhance the prime listening positions. Now that I have made that statement, the only system I have heard that will meet your listening wants was a 5.1 system using MBL omni-directional speakers (start thinking $60,000 minimum). I actually owned a pair of MBL 101 speakers, and for sound dispersion and 3D effect they were astonishing, but on the bright side and lean on bass, and very power hungry.

 

So, starting with the fixed element of a long narrow listening room with a low ceiling, everything else is a variable. Due to the room size and shape your final solution may require you to compromise on your wish list which brings me back to Occam’s razor.

 

Daphne

 

 

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@Daphne: Damn you and your logic. I will not be swayed! I will not be diverted! Nyah, nyah! Your shoe is untied!!!

 

Actually, I have thought about moving myself around, but the solution is more problematic than the proposal. Not that that is entirely unexpected, no?

 

The room I'm in is a basement, and laid out -- more or less -- as a series of four 13x13 squares, arranged like a capital letter "T". I, and my rack, sit in the top-left square, with the speakers "shooting" down three such, for an ~40' length. In the middle square is a wine bar, pushing out from the "top" of the "T" and into that square approx 6'. A pool table occupies the upper right square. The bottom square is an oddball, a leftover from the previous owner who ran a dance studio out of her home, with a raised vinyl floor (bouncy!) and big mirrors along the side walls. Acoustically, let's just say that that square is a bit lively, and anyway, the treadmill and gym live over there. Ok, way too much info, but the upshot is that I don't have as much flexibility as I'd like. As it is, I'm snug as a bug back in my corner. As my wife says, I'm also "out of the way", so there you go. My only flexibility will be whether or not I move my desk farther away from the speakers -- which is doable. But not sure it'll help me much as I can extend my square into the middle about 2', and that's about it before the bar becomes a complete obstacle. But yes, good thought and bonus points for referencing Occam. Anyone who can drag the roots of philosophical empiricism into a conversation about audio is doing great things, at least in my book. ;-)

 

As for subwoofers, I've mentioned that I'm currently running a single DD-12 with my Merlins. I have not been having a lot of happiness here with this config as the Merlins do produce quite a bit of bass down low (+/- 10dB down is in the 20s), so integration is a challenge. Had them up against the rear wall, 1/4 of the way in from the corner on either side, in the corners, &c, but the "best" sound also seems to be the one where it's physically in phase (right next to the speaker, woofers in line, or even slightly ahead of the speaker main). I think it's a timing thing, honestly. Yes, I can get the sub in phase wherever it is, but ... well, I have no idea what's going on. I like it there. If I get a second, it'll flank the other speaker, I suppose. FWIW, isn't that how "full range speakers" are setup? With the integrated sub right there in phase with (and physically coupled to) the mid/tweeter cabinet? Just curious why that approach is poorly considered. I've also been fiddling with the low-pass filter, setting it as high as 120Hz and as low as 40Hz. Seems I get less bloat the lower I go. But as I might have mentioned, I have some nodes that I simply can't boost or cut around, so room treatments are on the way -- should be here on Monday.

 

I'm also borrowing a pair of Reference 3a MM de Capo II (and stands) to see if I can get them to marry "better" with a sub than my Merlins. I hear the de Capo's are really nice ... and very easy to drive (!).

 

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The only proper way to use subs is cross over the mains not to run them in parallel!

 

Unfortunately this does introduce a bit of additional complexity in the signal path but it means that you are free to place subs where ever they produce the best bass.

 

If you run subs with mains and there is considerable overlap you will suffer from phase related cancellation nulls in the frequency response. The only way to avoid this is either to put subs right next to the main speakers and run them in stereo (so there is little path difference between the sound from the sub and the sound from the mains) or to use a mono sub and put it exactly between the two speakers and the same distance to the listener. Any other approaches will create path length difference with one speaker or the other and will lead to nasty cancellation nulls in the frequency response.

 

I think this is why subs have got a bad reputation - they are not straightforward to integrate and best placement relys (in my mind) on use of measurements to adjust phase and level.

 

Nyal Mellor, Acoustic Frontiers LLC.

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I know a lot of "modern" subs have quite a bit of flexibility to match output levels -- and include tools to tell you when/if/where you have a problem and to solve it, well, at least to some extent. I'm not certain, but I think it's because of these tools that the most common 2+1 or 2+2 implementation is cross-over-less.

 

As for crossovers .... I guess I'm not a huge fan of DSP-based room correction. Sometimes works great, especially if you have 1 spot you're trying to optimize. Which I don't.

 

Anyway, A-D/D-A "active" crossovers give me the willies. I went and bought that nice expensive DAC -- so having all that beautiful analog re-sampled again downstream seems silly. But its probably inaudible. Probably.

 

The Bryston 10B Sub might work, but that only has a single sub out. I'm not familiar with the other options.

 

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socrates, you are right. i looked into modern subs and some of them (like Klipsch and Velodyne) even have built in room correction. unfortunately none of the solutions are ideal. these are the options i think are valid:

 

dac output 1 XLR -> power amplifier -> full range speakers

dac output 2 RCA -> sub with built in dsp room correction that corrects the entire system between 15 - 200hz

BUT i am afraid the addition of the sub would introduce too much bass energy into the room and the room correction would not be able to compensate for the additional problems. on the other hand it would be great to have a kind of active room correction device for below 200hz!

 

other option:

dac output 1 XLR -> sub with low / high pass filter -> (>150 hz) power amplifier + full range speakers

-> (< 150 hz) room correction + sub

BUT I have an acustic arts amplifier with XLR input only and none of the subs have XLR inputs/outputs (only chinch). I am also not sure what influence an additional low pass filter would have on sound quality.

 

Someone any experience with this? Thoughts?

 

 

 

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