Vibration Air & Roller Bearings - Thanks to Barry & Warren

[jabbr]

10 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

who is going to 3D print some of the cups?

A few years ago there was discussion about a group buy using the specifications that Barry posted to the thread. Ultimately didn't get done on the thread because if the usual arguments about what is "perfect" but I can tell you that with sufficient numbers of the item (the setup cost is substantial and machine shops don't want to be bothered if the job is too small) we were able to get exactly what we wanted. Silicon Nitride ball bearings are also commonly available or use anything. I just do it pretty much exactly as Barry Diament posted.

 

If you are looking at one set then the commercial vendors are the most cost effective. 

 

The roller led blocks and balls really work great for horizontal including rotators vibrations -- the inner tubes are fiddly need to be refilled and are as good as any spring. A Euler spring would be better and I have some carbon fiber tubes lying around for constructing some but that involves work-- there's prob a limit of incremental benefit until good measurements are taken.

[jabbr]

The spherical shape of the bowl ensures that they work on a slight unlevel surface (and the inner tubes ensure the surface will be slightly unleveled). The hardness and polish and uniformity of the surfaces ensures a very low resistance to horizontal  translation -- which is what isolates vibrations in the horizontal plane.

[rando]

Sorbothane was repeatedly suggested in YAshN's thread by those unwilling or unlikely to sort through up to the point of their contribution.  fas42 isn't completely off base mentioning the use of items with viscoelastic properties internally as a personal solution to the greater issues under discussion.  Certainly there is nothing wrong with collecting what seem disparate, yet deemed worthy of mention, ideas at the time without overly focusing on them unless they become highly relevant.

 

Barry has been somewhat coy about offering anything but generalizations as to implementation, insofar as I've seen.  I have no doubt whatever fas42 is dropping clues towards is drastically more refined and livable than the rudimentary practice of settling equipment atop cup and ball which is in turn perched on a bicycle tube.  It should be obvious this is a potentially wondrous and simple solution if and only if it meets the specific needs of the item.  Applying it as liberally as BD in the face of multiples of scores of other solutions? (I honestly believe he used this solution so widely due to an almost insurmountable amount of the issues it ably dealt with in his environment.)  As someone recently pointed out, there are no silver bullets in audio.  There are a lot of computers involved in computer audio though.  

 

As I was typing this jabbr mentioned the one item that was bothering me the most in this arrangement of home made air and roller bearings.  The base or air bearing and how it interacts with all the pressures and objects that depend on it.  Bicycle tubes are not a great long term solution as they are effectively porous items that lose air with greater expediency as pressure rises.  My road bike tires, at 95 psi, lose up to 10 psi over the course of 24 hours sitting stationary.  Euler bearings are substantial and complicated industrial solutions for the most part.  Anyways, as I work through this I plan to revise and revisit the most structurally critical component with greatest attention.  

 

 

 

 

[89reksal]

Here's a link to a Canadian company that makes/sells rollerballs:

 

http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/products-and-services.php

[jabbr]

55 minutes ago, rando said:

Barry has been somewhat coy about offering anything but generalizations as to implementation, insofar as I've seen.  I have no doubt whatever fas42 is dropping clues towards is drastically more refined and livable than the rudimentary practice of settling equipment atop cup and ball which is in turn perched on a bicycle tube.  It should be obvious this is a potentially wondrous and simple solution if and only if it meets the specific needs of the item

 

Actually careful reading through the public ally available prior thread will give tremendous and very specific information. The solution I ended up getting was organized by another individual who was not happy with the commercially available products (at least at that time) -- he had contacts at a local and excellent machine shop -- Barry gave us our blessing but specifically asked that we not support commercializations of his technology (not that I had interest but as a consequence will not repeat the exact specifications) in any case anyone interested can do the research in the old thread and a satisfactory solution is available.

 

Sorbothane, yes sorbothane let's just say that there are many scientific, military etc needs for vibration reduction and sorbothane is a well known material and it's limits are well known. No harm done because if you don't get perfect vibration isolation, the world will not end nor will puppies starve ?

[jabbr]

A couple things to consider: as far as I can tell the "Symposium" line of roller ball products have been developed with their own IP i.e. Independent of Barry Diament's design.

 

Anyone could start with 1/2" stainless ball bearings atop very smooth porcelain plates (doll house sized e.g. 1 1/2 to 2 ")

[rando]

Concern regarding the air bearing kept sneaking into prominence without being repeatedly being called out.  You are correct he offered a substantial amount of insight into his entire process with roller bearings and associated variables.  By far they are the more easily constructed of the two.  Which leads me to believe redefining what he has arrived at will be very challenging.

 

Among the troubles the simple air bearings he mentioned highlights is using a round tube under a rectangular platform.  Taking a rectangular piece of equipment with uneven weight distribution and replicating it's dimensions into an outsized shelf which it is placed onto off center to create equilibrium strikes me as poor implementation and design.  This is not how you make a foundation.  Note that I'm on page 11 of the previous thread and this very well could be dealt with in the remaining 2/3. 

 

 

[jabbr]

11 minutes ago, rando said:

Among the troubles the simple air bearings he mentioned highlights is using a round tube under a rectangular platform.  Taking a rectangular piece of equipment with uneven weight distribution and replicating it's dimensions into an outsized shelf which it is placed onto off center to create equilibrium strikes me as poor implementation and design.  

 

Ultimately there are many ways to get a "spring" including magnetic. These are all springs. The inner tubes are cheap & work.

 

There are also wire rope based vibration isolators -- this is a whole category and these are better -- but more expensive and you need to tailor the product to the weight of the device being isolated:

 

[rando]

Oh yes, I'm well aware there are many well made products that go beyond the puttering ability of the average person's small workshop.  The guy who suspended his speakers from his ceiling using compound bow string was a particular highlight of home made solutions in the other thread.

 

I'll neglect to post any further on my current use for the lowest caliber design (Attempt to make all my mistakes before they get costly or hard to reverse).  For instance, today I switched the tube from a very skinny road one to a mtb.   I'm well aware why 99.99% percent of the people that tried this at home ended up buying a solution and don't expect anything but a bit of fun and learning out of this.

[Ralf11]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

if you don't get perfect vibration isolation, the world will not end 

 

You are neglecting the quantum vacuum decay that will end the universe

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

12 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

I put all my equipment, including heavy 35 kg each speakers and tube amp on bearings and bowls.Tires too. It worked, no doubt. I liked the change in sound. At the same time I should admit, it is not convenient to have everything moving around. Lightweight components (as mac mini, for example) were not staying in place. Sturdy interconnects were an obstacle. As an experiment it is fun to try, but to use it permanently was slightly over the top. Since that time I downsized to much smaller and modest sound set, and it makes no sense to follow-up with bearings/tires. So, my recommendation is – if you have big heavy high-end components, you would try with it.

 

I have a slightly different 'spin' on this, Spin (sorry)

 

My intuition and limited experience is that this whole approach most likely works best for smaller, lower mass/weight equipment, especially in relation to air bearings.

 

The issue is that high mass requires stiffer springs or less supple rubber inner tube to support it, thus limiting its effectiveness. Eular springs might be better in this respect as per Jabbr comments. Also http://gravity.physics.uwa.edu.au/amaldi/papers/Winterflood.pdf

 

In the case of roller bearings higher mass with more inertia present their own different problems. I am not a physicist so these are just thoughts not facts. It seems that higher mass 'grinds' down on roller balls moreso thus limiting their effectiveness. The solution might be bigger balls and cups. However the actual point of contact of the sphere on the surface of the bowl is probably not that much less ie Force over area = pressure may be similar. As I say its just seems intuitive somehow (to me) that bigger balls/cups would be required for large mass devices.

 

OTOH the larger mass with more inertia may be more naturally resistant to low force displacing vibrations so maybe its less important to isolate them....except ,presumably it is the (low mass) inside components that one is targeting. I dont have the answers.

 

In the case of *very* lightweight gear the main problem I see is the effect of stiff interconnects skewing and tethering the device and antagonizing the isolating effect of roller bearings. This is at least partially countered by judicious placement of interconnects so that 'the wobble factor' returns.

[fas42]

11 hours ago, 4est said:

I'd be curious as to how you went about replacing all of the multi layer ceramic surface mount capacitors as per jabbr's video link.

 

For a start, the gear I've worked on doesn't use those parts. And the parts don't necessarily have to be the classic electronic R, L, C units. And how vibration of a particular part which is troublesome affects the sound negatively will vary.

 

There is an overriding principle at work with audio replay, which is confirmed again and again, for me. The normal standard is incredibly mediocre, compared to what's possible - and this is caused by subtle defects which are everywhere in a typical system. Vibration isolation as being discussed here helps to get a lot of them under control, but it's almost guaranteed there are plenty more, always. Resolve every last one of those weaknesses, and the quality will be staggeringly good, unbelievably so to many.

[fas42]

A quick comment on the balls and cup technique - apologies if already mentioned: audio friend down the road uses this in an area or two, and a constant 'irritation' is that the cups have to be kept pristinely clean - dust settles in the most important spot, and the benefits slowly degrade, unnoticeably. A maintenance regime is therefore essential.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

8 hours ago, rando said:

Bicycle tubes are not a great long term solution as they are effectively porous items that lose air with greater expediency as pressure rises.  My road bike tires, at 95 psi, lose up to 10 psi over the course of 24 hours sitting stationary.  Euler bearings are substantial and complicated industrial solutions for the most part

 

Yes, I believe others have found inner tubes fiddly in that they require periodic re inflation. The real hassle though comes with the need to replace them when they inevitably perish.This is not bad if you have light gear but my amp weighs 108kg!

 

My craftsman friend Warren arranged a pair of "bottle jacks" and fashioned adapters to work as "tow jacks". Worked a treat to place the air bearing platform beneath the amp.

 

The advantage of a tube over Eular springs is that the tube can be infinitely adjusted by inflating or deflating. If you find some way of accurately measuring the pressure you can calibrate what is ideal. Barry says he can hear changes in the sounstage as he leaks air out of the tube.

 

C'mmon guys, what could be more cool and nerdy at the same time. Imagine a group of spectators as you launch yourself from your listening chair saying, "ahh I think that needs just another smidgen of air pressure...ah, that's better!". Divine madness, but we need some reintroduction of the whole 'hands-on' experience in audio since few of us now have tonearms to fiddle with or records to clean. Am I wrong?

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

6 hours ago, rando said:

Among the troubles the simple air bearings he mentioned highlights is using a round tube under a rectangular platform.  Taking a rectangular piece of equipment with uneven weight distribution and replicating it's dimensions into an outsized shelf which it is placed onto off center to create equilibrium strikes me as poor implementation and design.  This is not how you make a foundation.

 

There is no inherent problem placing or balancing a square platform over a round inner tube (if you like you could make a round platform). I agree that most equipment will have uneven mass distribution but it is easy (in my experience) to adjust the position to effectively balance  the gear sitting atop. Barry, himself doesnt use air bearings under his speakers and I think the higher centre of gravity would make that challenging to balance safely.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

16 minutes ago, fas42 said:

the cups have to be kept pristinely clean - dust settles in the most important spot, and the benefits slowly degrade, unnoticeably. A maintenance regime is therefore essential.

 

Too early for me to say as I have only recently installed them. He has DUST in his music room ? Shame !

[rando]

9 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

My craftsman friend Warren arranged a pair of "bottle jacks" and fashioned adapters to work as "tow jacks". Worked a treat to place the air bearing platform beneath the amp.

 

Plebeian and low rent!  True audiophiles know the Wilson Audio Flat Jack as the only tool worthy of mention for any task of this order.  

 

[fas42]

1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Too early for me to say as I have only recently installed them. He has DUST in his music room ? Shame !

 

Living down under, it's a dusty country ...

 

Fine dust particles are always floating around, unless one has an IC fab room. And they will always settle into the lowest point on a smooth surface, especially if subtle movement keeps disturbing them - almost invisible, but a thorough clean up immediately reveals better performance.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 minute ago, rando said:

Plebeian and low rent!  True audiophiles know the Wilson Audio Flat Jack as the only tool worthy of mention for any task of this order.  

 

HaHa, yes we explored many sorts of lifting devices and cranes! These wilson jacks look a bit like "trolley" jacks. Happily. Warren's solution was a fraction of the price and more stable (the fixed adapter being placed along a greater surface area of the bottom plate)

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

can someone briefly explain the "xyz reacted to your post" notification. The green symbol alongside that post has "upvote" "like" (grayed out) and thanks (grayed out)

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

7 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Fine dust particles are always floating around, unless one has an IC fab room. And they will always settle into the lowest point on a smooth surface, especially if subtle movement keeps disturbing them - almost invisible, but a thorough clean up immediately reveals better performance.

 

makes sense. I wonder what others have found.

 

I have hospital grade sealed and suctioned clean air environment in my dedicated listening room. Doesn't everyone?

[fas42]

29 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

C'mmon guys, what could be more cool and nerdy at the same time. Imagine a group of spectators as you launch yourself from your listening chair saying, "ahh I think that needs just another smidgen of air pressure...ah, that's better!". Divine madness, but we need some reintroduction of the whole 'hands-on' experience in audio since few of us now have tonearms to fiddle with or records to clean. Am I wrong?

 

 

Yeeess ... the more complicated you make the mechanism to get the best sound, the more parameters climb on board, and your head starts to spin!! ... Simplicity Rules ... !!!

 

The absolute minimum of properly functioning parts is a mighty good solution ...

[Ralf11]

24 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

I have hospital grade sealed and suctioned clean air environment in my dedicated listening room. Doesn't everyone?

 

 

I highly doubt many on here do that.  Most have chip fab air handling.  Hospitals are dirty and dangerous.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

I highly doubt many on here do that.  Most have chip fab air handling.  Hospitals are dirty and dangerous.

 

Well some compromises need to be made. I also gave up on wearing those full body contamination suits as it went against the audiophile's creed that one must sit naked while listening to music.. The bass waves resonate certain jiggly bits of anatomy and improve SQ !

[Ralf11]

http://newatlas.com/subpac-m2-wearable-audio/39920/