Popular Post Audiophile Neuroscience Posted September 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted September 3, 2017 As requested by Jud, I am posting some details of my experience with Barry Diament's "Air bearings" - and "Roller bearings" aka "hip joints" for vibration control. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT (Sept 4 , 2017): unbeknownst to me, but not surprisingly, this topic has already been posted in 2015. You can read all about it, including Barry Diament's contributions by following this link: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry is a world class audio engineer who has posted in the past on CA. If you want to know a little more about Barry's impressive recording/mastering work,https://www.discogs.com/artist/389175-Barry-Diament Barry now offers downloads for those that want to sample his recordings Soundkeeper Recordings (no, this is not an info-commercial but I do recommend you try one). I am not an engineer and also must be mindful that this is Barry's intellectual property which he kindly shared with me. Thank you Barry! I will therefore not be elaborating on the specifications but will try to talk in general about the principles. Much of this is covered on Barry's own website/s: Barry Diament Audio , Soundkeeper Recordings and suggest you start here:http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm Warren P (not on CA afaik) was the master craftsman who constructed the air platforms and oversaw the machining of the roller bearings. Thank you Warren! You can see the aluminum roller bearings here - Scroll down to picture of ULN-8 http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/studio.htm The "air bearings" are harder to see as Barry has incorporated them into his bespoke "Enjoy Yourshelf" racks. If I can figure out how to embed pics on this new CA board I may post some pics later. As seen in the picture on the website, the roller bearing "hip joints" consist of a ball and cup design like a human hip joint (sorta). The ball bearing sits beneath an acoustically dead ceramic tile (smooth side down on to rollers) and the audio gear sits atop the tile. The air bearing consists of a bicycle inner tube, inflated with just enough air to give bounce, and in my case with an mdf timber platform atop the tube. So a sandwich of layers in my case : rack, inner tube, timber board, hip joints, ceramic tile, gear. The general idea is to isolate / decouple the audio gear from ground borne vibrations. Many isolating devices tend to couple rather than decouple movements. With spikes, shake the shelf and the gear moves the same way, one for one. Soft sorbothane pucks, according to Barry, have the wrong resonant characteristics and don’t work well in isolating low frequencies. Barry's air and roller bearings decouple or float the gear in all of vertical, horizontal (and rotational planes). The tube has a vertical spring effect and the roller bearing counters or offsets horizontal and rotational motion. According to Barry, the slower the balls roll, the lower the roller bearing resonance, with isolation beginning at about 1.4 x the resonance. The longer the balls roll the deeper the isolation will be. Townsend came up with similar ideas and produced expensive commercial products. No, Barry, does not sell his copyrighted products (so again this is not an info commercial). You can however have a go at making your own (see above link) at least for the air bearings. It will cost a very small amount in materials. If you are going to try this remember to place a hole in the timber platform to allow air pressure to equalize in the volume/space bounded by the inner margin of the tube. If not, air pressure would resist the up and down 'springiness' of the tube. How does it sound? Barry says that it's like releasing the gear from being "bound and gagged". Across the board improvements, everything opening up, bass tightens. For me, Barry's is an apt description. Things just soared free, that sensation that the system disappears and the sound-stage for me, becomes more focused. Notably, It did NOT change tonal balance as in warmer or harsher, just more open and snapping into place, like turning the lens of a camera. Colors were the same just better seen. So, no added coloration. Barry explains that isolation should not add to the sound but rather prevents the harmful effects of vibrations, thereby preventing coloration if you like, closer to neutrality. It takes you one step closer to transparency and paraphrasing Barry, your system getting out of the way of the music. Apologies to Barry if I have misconstrued or wrongly explained things. David [ Comment all you like but as the Poster, and in deference to Barry, please keep it respectful. Thanks] jabbr, jventer and 89reksal 3 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 I believe Barry Diament's ideas on this topic were discussed here earlier already and in certain length and some of CA participants shared their experiences with air tubes and bearings. Barry himself took a part in it. I went through intense passion with all this as well (and Barry was exceptionally kind and helpful in explaining things in PMs). Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 1 hour ago, AnotherSpin said: I believe Barry Diament's ideas on this topic were discussed here earlier already and in certain length and some of CA participants shared their experiences with air tubes and bearings. Barry himself took a part in it. I went through intense passion with all this as well (and Barry was exceptionally kind and helpful in explaining things in PMs). I didnt know that. Hopefully this thread may spark interest for those that did not see the previous post. Exceptionally kind and helpful is a good description of Barry ! Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 20 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: I didnt know that. Hopefully this thread may spark interest for those that did not see the previous post. Exceptionally kind and helpful is a good description of Barry ! You may want to search the forum (on "Barry Diament") and re-vitalise those discussions. Many people already posted their experiences there. Link to comment
fas42 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: How does it sound? Barry says that it's like releasing the gear from being "bound and gagged". Across the board improvements, everything opening up, bass tightens. For me, Barry's is an apt description. Things just soared free, that sensation that the system disappears and the sound-stage for me, becomes more focused. Notably, It did NOT change tonal balance as in warmer or harsher, just more open and snapping into place, like turning the lens of a camera. Colors were the same just better seen. So, no added coloration. Barry explains that isolation should not add to the sound but rather prevents the harmful effects of vibrations, thereby preventing coloration if you like, closer to neutrality. It takes you one step closer to transparency and paraphrasing Barry, your system getting out of the way of the music. This is as good a description as any of how the replay improves when using the 'right' type of tweaking, whether it's vibration conrol or anything else. Sometimes external methods of attenuating vibration make sense, but I tend to dive inside and stabilise, in various ways, the actual parts of the component that may be causing issues - different strokes for different folk ... Link to comment
rando Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Among other things I dug this up last night. It was on my list of things to peruse and hopefully find some ideas to experiment with today, so easy at hand. This is the lengthy main discussion (there were numerous others that pulled information from it) AnotherSpin was referring to. Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 7 hours ago, rando said: This is the lengthy main discussion (there were numerous others that pulled information from it) AnotherSpin was referring to. I don't have the administrative ability to close this thread but perhaps it may serve a purpose by redirecting people to the main thread here: Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
rando Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 I'm actively reading through that thread and found time to do small experiment today. Should you wish to continue your interest here I doubt there would be any issue. For ease of reference of any interested parties I linked to the 33 page thread that was mentioned. My preference is tackling whatever sparked you to start a side conversation here. Consider me smitten with the initial results. The idea of throwing an old bike tube and some bearings under a piece of equipment rapidly appealed to me as I have a large supply of both. Following the holiday weekend store closures I plan to go about this more seriously. With 35 pages of the aforementioned thread left to browse I have any number of revisions to my rough sketch that may occur. This is honestly one of the more exciting audio developments for me lately! Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 15 hours ago, fas42 said: This is as good a description as any of how the replay improves when using the 'right' type of tweaking, whether it's vibration conrol or anything else. Sometimes external methods of attenuating vibration make sense, but I tend to dive inside and stabilise, in various ways, the actual parts of the component that may be causing issues - different strokes for different folk ... Many people use little pieces of polymer etc around or to hold various components, boards etc, but none of this works nearly as well as the type of vibration isolation being discussed here with rollerballs and inner tubes. The inner tubes could be improved upon but not by "winging it" rather youd need to use nonlinear springs e.g. Euler etc and youd need to properly measure vibration in order to do this -- in effect, unless you have scientific equipment the best way to isolate vibrations in audio equipment are the techniques presented in the referenced thread and attributed to @Barry Diament Audiophile Neuroscience 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 to me, the interesting question is what exactly is being affected by the vibration - except the obvious of course (tubes) Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted September 4, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted September 4, 2017 25 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: to me, the interesting question is what exactly is being affected by the vibration - except the obvious of course (tubes) The question is what degree of vibration is audible -- can't answe that. A surprising number of electrical components are vibration sensitive, not only crystals -- let me google the somewhat famous EEVBlog voice doe where he wraps the probes on the table and the squiggles on the screen are quite visible... here it is: Audiophile Neuroscience and 4est 1 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, rando said: My preference is tackling whatever sparked you to start a side conversation here. No problem, I guess raising the same topic every couple of years is not a bad thing. Well that would seem fair considering how much some other topics get recycled. It is also so (relatively) simple and inexpensive and easy to try for DIYers. 1 hour ago, rando said: Consider me smitten with the initial results. The idea of throwing an old bike tube and some bearings under a piece of equipment rapidly appealed to me as I have a large supply of both. Following the holiday weekend store closures I plan to go about this more seriously. With 35 pages of the aforementioned thread left to browse I have any number of revisions to my rough sketch that may occur. This is honestly one of the more exciting audio developments for me lately! You'll be even more smitten when you get it all properly set up! 1 hour ago, jabbr said: Many people use little pieces of polymer etc around or to hold various components, boards etc, but none of this works nearly as well as the type of vibration isolation being discussed here with rollerballs and inner tubes. I agree, bracing or lashing something down may reduce the magnitude of the oscillation but is not true isolation as I understand it. In some instances it may also just serve to couple the vibration to the device. jabbr 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 who is going to 3D print some of the cups? Link to comment
fas42 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, jabbr said: Many people use little pieces of polymer etc around or to hold various components, boards etc, but none of this works nearly as well as the type of vibration isolation being discussed here with rollerballs and inner tubes. The inner tubes could be improved upon but not by "winging it" rather youd need to use nonlinear springs e.g. Euler etc and youd need to properly measure vibration in order to do this -- in effect, unless you have scientific equipment the best way to isolate vibrations in audio equipment are the techniques presented in the referenced thread and attributed to @Barry Diament My mindset is to fix the problem at the source - would you prefer strong bones; or soft ones, which meant external crutches and mechanical aids to support the body? Internal stabilising using the right techniques and materials is not trivial, but to my mind is a far more satisfactory approach - it also means one learns a great deal about what matters, and what doesn't ... Link to comment
fas42 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 34 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: I agree, bracing or lashing something down may reduce the magnitude of the oscillation but is not true isolation as I understand it. In some instances it may also just serve to couple the vibration to the device. Think of the suspension for a car wheel - elastic properties combined with damping properties give the best results here, and I find that also in audio parts. Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, fas42 said: My mindset is to fix the problem at the source - would you prefer strong bones; or soft ones, which meant external crutches and mechanical aids to support the body? Internal stabilising using the right techniques and materials is not trivial, but to my mind is a far more satisfactory approach - it also means one learns a great deal about what matters, and what doesn't ... Ok you are just being totally random here. What you are talking about has nothing to do with this thread about vibration isolation. Whatever. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
fas42 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, jabbr said: Ok you are just being totally random here. What you are talking about has nothing to do with this thread about vibration isolation. Whatever. I would beg to differ ... the problem is that audio parts that move because of some external movement, from any source, can then cause the circuit to work "less correctly". One then can isolate, shield the part from vibration externally, or internally to the nominal container of the parts - the best solution is to use parts which are totally robust while being shaken; failing that, prevent the part from moving, vibration isolation, by changing its environment. rando 1 Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, fas42 said: My mindset is to fix the problem at the source - would you prefer strong bones; or soft ones, which meant external crutches and mechanical aids to support the body? Fas, I believe you misconstrue things here. If you were to fix the problem at the source you would need to stop the vibrations at the source, like stopping the trucks going down your street, or moving your speakers away. Your analogy of mechanical aids for the body is IMO not applicable. Whether applying some kind of internal bracing or externally isolating vibration you are striving to prevent said vibrations entering "critical components". We are not trying to beef up that componentry, just stop vibrations reaching it. If you lash down the housing containing the components, you simply create a pathway for the vibration to get in. You couple the external movement to the inside part in a one to one ratio. Move the outside housing: Move the part. This is also why things like spikes and cones are not as effective as people think. 1 hour ago, fas42 said: Think of the suspension for a car wheel - elastic properties combined with damping properties give the best results here, and I find that also in audio parts. Somewhat oddly I believe this reasoning is more sound but IMO it does not support your own premise (that's the odd part). It is precisely the *elastic* springy qualities of an inner tube that is being employed with Barry's methods. It isolates, depending on resonant damping properties and so on, like the suspension on a car - in the vertical domain. Similarly the roller balls provide damping but in the horizontal and rotational planes. Think of it this way. As the ground moves beneath the equipment, the equipment maintains the exact same position in space, it doesn't move - the ground does. It is damped or isolated from such movements. Lash the equipment down and you will ensure both move together - coupled, non elastic, not damped. Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
fas42 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: If you lash down the housing containing the components, you simply create a pathway for the vibration to get in. You couple the external movement to the inside part in a one to one ratio. Move the outside housing: Move the part. This is also why things like spikes and cones are not as effective as people think. Somewhat oddly I believe this reasoning is more sound but IMO it does not support your own premise (that's the odd part). It is precisely the *elastic* springy qualities of an inner tube that is being employed with Barry's methods. It isolates, depending on resonant damping properties and so on, like the suspension on a car - in the vertical domain. Similarly the roller balls provide damping but in the horizontal and rotational planes. Think of it this way. As the ground moves beneath the equipment, the equipment maintains the exact same position in space, it doesn't move - the ground does. It is damped or isolated from such movements. Lash the equipment down and you will ensure both both together - coupled, non elastic, not damped. The word is, "viscoelastic". That's the group of "magic" materials that both spring, and damp. I hunt down every variation of these for their usefulness - think, memory pillows. So things are not "lashed" - they are decoupled from their immediate environment in just the right manner, so the problems go away. Pure springiness, or lashing won't work, yes. It's the delicate balance of material properties that stop "wrong" movement that work for one - having aimed eons ago to stop vinyl cartridges bouncing when the "wrong moves" were made by people in the room, I know it don't come easy ... Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, fas42 said: elastic properties 17 minutes ago, fas42 said: The word is, "viscoelastic". You used the word elastic (combined with damping). If you wish to correct yourself that is fine. I am familiar with the term. Just because 3M or whoever markets its properties for damping in certain situations doesn't mean it works well in audio. Sorbothane has viscoelastic properties but once again, despite being employed as isolation pucks in audio, afaik it does not have the right *resonance characteristics* and *doesn't isolate lower frequencies*. I mentioned this in the original post. "Silly putty" also has viscoelastic properties but doesnt make it necessarily suited for what we are talking about. Springs have resonant and elastic properties and can also have viscous damping. In another thread I politely pointed out you were using Auditory scene analysis and Mismatch negativity incorrectly, IMO. That was more up my alley than this topic but I think as Jabbr said 2 hours ago, jabbr said: Ok you are just being totally random here. What you are talking about has nothing to do with this thread about vibration isolation. 40 minutes ago, fas42 said: I know it don't come easy ... Phew, at last we agree on something, lol ! Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
fas42 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: You used the word elastic (combined with damping). If you wish to correct yourself that is fine. I am familiar with the term. Just because 3M or whoever markets its properties for damping in certain situations doesn't mean it works well in audio. Fair enough. Looking at that thread where Barry Diament contributed his findings I see that he is strongly focused on preventing very low frequency vibrations reaching the equipment. And what I do will have zero effect in that area, there is no overlap - personally, I have never intentionally attempted to isolate with those techniques, because I have achieved the goals using other approaches. My apologies for disturbing the flow of this thread ... Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 12 minutes ago, fas42 said: preventing very low frequency vibrations reaching the equipment. And what I do will have zero effect in that area, there is no overlap - personally, I have never intentionally attempted to isolate with those techniques, because I have achieved the goals using other approaches. Fas, if you have never tried isolating low frequencies (you said "what I do will have zero effect in that area") why not try Barry's ideas. That's really what this thread is about. If you have tried isolating low frequencies (you said "I have achieved the goals using other approaches") then feel free to elaborate. 12 minutes ago, fas42 said: My apologies for disturbing the flow of this thread ... No apology required. Nobody minds respectful debate and disagreement. Cheers David Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 As bearings/tires discussion envelops again I think I would share my experience and findings with it. About two years ago I went as far as to order custom alu bowls (consulted with Barry about sizes and shape, he didn't reveal exact figures, but provided with insightful guidance). I put all my equipment, including heavy 35 kg each speakers and tube amp on bearings and bowls.Tires too. It worked, no doubt. I liked the change in sound. At the same time I should admit, it is not convenient to have everything moving around. Lightweight components (as mac mini, for example) were not staying in place. Sturdy interconnects were an obstacle. As an experiment it is fun to try, but to use it permanently was slightly over the top. Since that time I downsized to much smaller and modest sound set, and it makes no sense to follow-up with bearings/tires. So, my recommendation is – if you have big heavy high-end components, you would try with it. Just keep in mind, good bowls measurements, high grade alu and quality of surface polishing are absolutely critical. Wood, plastic, etc will not work. If you have modest equipment as I do now, you can spare on this. Link to comment
fas42 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Thanks, David. What I meant by achieving the goals, was that the qualities in the sound that Barry was aiming for were likewise brought forth by my internal stabilising of the parts of the component. IOW, I invoke the "many roads to Rome" POV - I directly hunted down what internal weaknesses were likely reacting to vibration, and resolved them in various ways. Philosophically I don't feel comfortable with allowing the fragility to remain, and adding coddling to the equation - it effectively says I don't understand what's going on, and that's not my way. Regards, Link to comment
4est Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 50 minutes ago, fas42 said: Thanks, David. What I meant by achieving the goals, was that the qualities in the sound that Barry was aiming for were likewise brought forth by my internal stabilising of the parts of the component. IOW, I invoke the "many roads to Rome" POV - I directly hunted down what internal weaknesses were likely reacting to vibration, and resolved them in various ways. Philosophically I don't feel comfortable with allowing the fragility to remain, and adding coddling to the equation - it effectively says I don't understand what's going on, and that's not my way. Regards, I'd be curious as to how you went about replacing all of the multi layer ceramic surface mount capacitors as per jabbr's video link. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
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