Jump to content
vortecjr

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of the microRendu / ultraRendu

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

I know it's a stupid title, but we are starting to get a lot of feedback on the ultraRendu and some people are experimenting with different "tweaks". The discussion about these tweaks were starting to muddled up things so I split the discussion below from the main ultraRendu thread into this thread. John has an interesting hypothesis and theory about some of these tweaks and has explained it below. I have my own ideas and in the coming months I will also be sharing my findings. For now fell free to explore and comment on your findings here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ultra finally delivered today! plugged in Pink Faun LAN isolator, the sonore signature ps and the Lush USB cable and we're off!

Sounds pretty good right out of the box but will off course wait a while before I comment on the SQ compared to this that and the other...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

Ultra finally delivered today! plugged in Pink Faun LAN isolator, the sonore signature ps and the Lush USB cable and we're off!

Sounds pretty good right out of the box but will off course wait a while before I comment on the SQ compared to this that and the other...

You know the input connector on the unit already has galvanic isolations built in;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

You know the input connector on the unit already has galvanic isolations built in;)

That's too simple to be any good.  Everybody knows that.  9_9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

You know the input connector on the unit already has galvanic isolations built in;)

Yeah, I've been aware of this as well, and was skeptical about the benefits of the FMC's in between router and microRendu.  But I'll be damned if they didn't still help.  Not sure of what exactly they're helping, but they did.  And better power on the FMC's also has helped quite a bit.  But I do recall John Swenson recounting at some point how no isolation is truly 100%.  It's about levels of isolation.  So, I wonder if these devices and the ethernet standard for isolation as being effective, but not enough to completely address needs for isolation, so that additional isolation devices can still have a positive impact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

The Ethernet input transceivers ARE galvanically isolated, which have very high impedance at low frequencies, but there can be at least two things going on.

 

1) SMPS can have fairly large amounts of very high frequency leakage noise which CAN make it through the Ethernet transformers. The cheap PS used on most IT equipment are usually very bad in this regard.

 

2) The clock signature of the clock in the switch (router whatever) will go right through the transformer and into the Ethernet receiver, thus poor clocks in IT equipment CAN make a difference even in very good devices such as the Rendus.

 

Probably different amount of both of these is present in any given system.

 

John S.

Are you ready to publish a white paper on this? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

The Ethernet input transceivers ARE galvanically isolated, which have very high impedance at low frequencies, but there can be at least two things going on.

 

1) SMPS can have fairly large amounts of very high frequency leakage noise which CAN make it through the Ethernet transformers. The cheap PS used on most IT equipment are usually very bad in this regard.

 

2) The clock signature of the clock in the switch (router whatever) will go right through the transformer and into the Ethernet receiver, thus poor clocks in IT equipment CAN make a difference even in very good devices such as the Rendus.

 

Probably different amount of both of these is present in any given system.

 

John S.

Thanks, John!  Very helpful explanation.  And fits well with the benefits I found in using LPS-1's on the FMC's, and in the Vinnie Rossi Mini on my more current hungry router/modem that an LPS-1 couldn't power.  Definitely feeds my new interest in playing with removing the FMC's, now that the router/modem is on clean power.  The benefits of the FMC's may now be redundant - those two issues may no longer be at play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John I have a concern / question. So one adds a linear supply to a switch or router. FYI I have no issue with what people use to power there switch or router. I personally don't do this, but I'm pretty sure my VP uses a 12VDC power supply we use to make to power his switch. Anyway, these devices are for the most part going to have internal DC-DC converters and won't they just cause more of the high frequency noise anyway?      

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

It doesn't look like it. All the leakage current seems to come from the power supply itself, not any DC/DC converter in a device powered by the supply. The difference seems to be that in a SMPS the high frequency switching is being done directly on the AC line before it goes through the transformer. There is also a small cap between AC line and supply output negative. I'm not exactly sure which aspect (or both) is what allows the leakage.

 

Remember that leakage is a common mode phenomenon, it is moving both the - and + of the DC output together, it is NOT differential, ie between + and -.  Any DC/DC converters powered by the supply do not seem to cause any extra leakage, probably because they do not have any direct connection to the AC line. They can certainly add differential noise (between + and -) on their output, but that is different from leakage current.

 

All the linear supplies I tested have MUCH lower leakage than the SMPS I looked at.

 

John S.

This coincides with feedback from customers in regards to using linear power supplies on their switches, routers, and optical gizmos. Better regulators and oscillators aside this also coincides with result reported with using a linear supply on things like the Logitech Touch and other similar devices.       

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair warning...I'm not endorsing this, I have not tried it, and I don't plan to try it. I'm just sharing the information and you are free to decide for yourself if it's worth looking into it. On face value it appears to address the issues that John outlined above.

 

One of our dealers Tom C in New Jersey - Xtreme Fidelity sent me this link: 

AQ-SWITCH Audiophile High-End Network Switch audio LAN isolator

 

According to their webpage

Quote

AQVOX Modification:
"State of the Art" Signal Optimization 

- Internal Ultra-Low-Noise voltage regulation
- Jitter Reduction
- ReClocker
- Signal Shaper
- EMI Eleminator
- De-Noiser
- Modified/optimized external power supply**


By using components from the audiophile technology in the power supply, plus innovative noise suppression concepts...

 

John, if you want or need one to test things I'm happy to purchase one and sent it to you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I'm just sharing the information and you are free to decide for yourself if it's worth looking into it.

Alex has already posted a couple of times that he and John have designed a much better audiophile switch, but due to higher priority products Uptone won't be doing it this year.

 

Too bad these guys have so many good ideas.  There are plenty of us who are ready to buy such a product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I purchased an Aqvox switch a few months back to connect a router, modem and a Sonic Transporter music server.  The switch made a noticeable improvement in sound quality, in ways described on the company website.   No issues either, simply plug and play.   Afterwards, i purchased a used ISOTEK Sirius EVO3 power strip and connected all three devices for another jump in SQ.   The combination made a really noticeable and pleasant difference.  Later in the year I would like to try a linear power supplies on one or more of the devices and maybe the SOTM ethernet cable.  Where does it end?

 

I'll go out on a limb here and say that the router, modem, and server are the heart of a music streaming system, and probably overlooked by most audiophiles.  But just as Linn Audio stressed the importance of "source first" with music reproduction, the same principle may apply to streaming music systems.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, hfxrzw said:

Hi, just wonder if you have tested the SilentSwitcher from Jan Didden? I'm using one to power a mR and am impressed with the sound. Thanks, Rene

Are you feeding it from usb?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, hfxrzw said:

Hi, just wonder if you have tested the SilentSwitcher from Jan Didden? I'm using one to power a mR and am impressed with the sound. Thanks, Rene

hfxrzw,

 

Curious what you're powering it with.

 

A bit off-topic... I've got a couple here and have used one to power the +-15V side of a Dial Audio R-Pi DAC. It was ok with the recommended phone charger, a bit better with an iFi iPower 5V, and a bit more better powered from an LPS-1 set to 7V.  BUT using a +-pair of some small shunt regulators (sorta like simplified Salas) powered by a hefty AC-connected linear supply was definitely a step up.

 

I haven't tried the 3.3V-5V-6.3V output as yet, I'll have to do that and see how it compares to my other options for things like powering an RPi or an RPi DAC.

 

Jesus, IF you'd like to try one, I can lend you one for awhile. 

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. Ted, that lend offer goes for you too, if you are interested. BUT I'm not opening it up to the world at large. sorry!

Edited by gstew

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone after hooking up my UltraRendu it clearly beats out the IR in multiple ways. There is an effortless and 3D imaging like i've never heard before here. I've tried the IR after the UltraRendu but I prefer the UltraRendu by itself powered by the LPS1. In combination, the IR thickens things up a bit but imaging suffers quite a bit and there is a lack of realism. The UltraRendu has a very transparent musical sound all by itself.

 

I have noticed however there is a slightly fatiguing sound using the UltraRendu... in the high frequency range where cymbals are a bit too forward and exaggerated. I have never heard any fatiguing sound out of this PS Audio SGCD/S300 setup... even with straight USB from Mac it has never been fatiguing. Because of this, outside of the UltraRendu the new factor is now my cable modem/router is connected via Ethernet into the system. I suspect this may be a source of this imbalance and a source of this fatiguing sound. I have ordered in some FMC's but in the meantime will be doing some experiments to identify if the modem/coax is the source of noise. Remember guys... you can use the fact that the UltraRendu holds a decent amount of music in memory to do comparisons. I will unplug and move things around to see how things change and report back. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gstew said:

hfxrzw,

 

Curious what you're powering it with.

 

A bit off-topic... I've got a couple here and have used one to power the +-15V side of a Dial Audio R-Pi DAC. It was ok with the recommended phone charger, a bit better with an iFi iPower 5V, and a bit more better powered from an LPS-1 set to 7V.  BUT using a +-pair of some small shunt regulators (sorta like simplified Salas) powered by a hefty AC-connected linear supply was definitely a step up.

 

I haven't tried the 3.3V-5V-6.3V output as yet, I'll have to do that and see how it compares to my other options for things like powering an RPi or an RPi DAC.

 

Jesus, IF you'd like to try one, I can lend you one for awhile. 

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. Ted, that lend offer goes for you too, if you are interested. BUT I'm not opening it up to the world at large. sorry!

Any tweak related topic is fine here. My only issue is the current is right on the edge and it's a DIY project. I may ask you for it, but not at this time. Thanks though.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great generosity as always. Not sure where I would use. Already running the microRendu (version 1.4) off the the Vinnie. Sounds like there is not enough current to run some of the 3.3/5 volt inputs into my pc. What do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Cxp said:

Hi Everyone after hooking up my UltraRendu it clearly beats out the IR in multiple ways. There is an effortless and 3D imaging like i've never heard before here. I've tried the IR after the UltraRendu but I prefer the UltraRendu by itself powered by the LPS1. In combination, the IR thickens things up a bit but imaging suffers quite a bit and there is a lack of realism. The UltraRendu has a very transparent musical sound all by itself.

 

I have noticed however there is a slightly fatiguing sound using the UltraRendu... in the high frequency range where cymbals are a bit too forward and exaggerated. I have never heard any fatiguing sound out of this PS Audio SGCD/S300 setup... even with straight USB from Mac it has never been fatiguing. Because of this, outside of the UltraRendu the new factor is now my cable modem/router is connected via Ethernet into the system. I suspect this may be a source of this imbalance and a source of this fatiguing sound. I have ordered in some FMC's but in the meantime will be doing some experiments to identify if the modem/coax is the source of noise. Remember guys... you can use the fact that the UltraRendu holds a decent amount of music in memory to do comparisons. I will unplug and move things around to see how things change and report back. :)

That is quite a hypothesis:) Lets change one thing at a time and report back you findings accordingly. I wonder what Peter's "Lush" cable would do for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Theobetley said:

Great generosity as always. Not sure where I would use. Already running the microRendu (version 1.4) off the the Vinnie. Sounds like there is not enough current to run some of the 3.3/5 volt inputs into my pc. What do you think?

If you using Vinnie's Mini power supply I believe it's discontinued.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×