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Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews


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3 hours ago, baconbrain said:

Which email address are you utilizing when contacting Kii Audio? I have written them twice via web interface and never received a reply. 

[email protected]

[email protected]

also the contact form on the web site.

I've also called the phone number. It's a small company. If they are there you get one of the principals. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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4 minutes ago, firedog said:

[email protected]

[email protected]

also the contact form on the web site.

I've also called the phone number. It's a small company. If they are there you get one of the principals. 

I have also got extremely well support from Kii Audio. Thomas has answered my questions on mail and also help me updating  , first my Kii speakers to the latest software using TeamViewer,  and last updating also my Kii Control to v.0.3.

 

My Kii Three are made late 2016 and there was a minor issue with the speakers "automatic sleep mode", sometimes just one speaker was shutting down, this was before I got my Kii Control. The update performed from Germany using the web and TeamViewer solved this. Great Support !

Auralic Aries G2 - Kii Control -  Kii Three active speakers -  OPPO BDP 95 - Clearaudio Concept turtable / AT-33 PTG II pu /Clearaudio Maestro Wood pu - Rega Fono MC riaa / Musical Surrondings riaa

Head-fi:

Beyerdynamic DT 1770 Pro - Shure SE846w/Silver Dragon - Chord Mojo

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1 minute ago, atletico said:

I have also got extremely well support from Kii Audio. Thomas has answered my questions on mail and also help me updating  , first my Kii speakers to the latest software using TeamViewer,  and last updating also my Kii Control to v.0.3.

 

My Kii Three are made late 2016 and there was a minor issue with the speakers "automatic sleep mode", sometimes just one speaker was shutting down, this was before I got my Kii Control. The update performed from Germany using the web and TeamViewer solved this. Great Support !

Very Good to know. Mine are mid 2017 and I have had zero issues. But it is great to know that in the future we will be able to do updates and improvements.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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2 hours ago, atletico said:

This is perfect into the back of the Kii Three speakers FI-C15 NCF :  http://www.furutech.com/2016/11/07/13978/

I'm using this on my special made power cables for the Kii Three's.....A good PC I think can improve the overall performance...The phase issue, I'm not so sure..

 

Agree, I followed your recommendation in an earlier post and DIY’ed a set. I am using the FI-C15 NCF IEC Connector, Supra 40th Anniv. 2.5 LoRad Cables, and Rhodium Coated connectors. Here a pic:

 

769AC28A-AEBF-4D80-B066-ADA00082622F.jpeg

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  • 2 weeks later...

I purchased a set of Kii Three last month.  I actually got the demos from Bill Parish that Kal used in his demo.  I really love the simplicity of these speakers and the SQ is satisfying on many levels.

 

I am looking at different options for digital front end.  I might end up with a Antipodes DX Gen 3.  But for the moment I need to optimize my Mac Mini to the Kii.  I am using the Mac Mini for audio/video output.

 

The sticking point I have right now is that I really like having the Kii Control next to my sitting area.  It reminds me of one of my favorite parts of owning a Devialet 250 was that huge metal chunk of a remote.  What I like it mostly for is when I watch movies at night, the kid's room is pretty close and I can have a finger on the dial and react to the volume swings in movie playback quickly.  I literally watch with my hand on the remote often.  A tablet is just too cumbersome for quick volume control.

 

I am looking at options to optimize the AES and USB inputs to the Kii.  What is of interest is SOtM or Mutec for USB optimization but for the AES as well.  I could use the AES output of the Mutec MC-3+ or add the SOtM tx-USB Ultra and then connect the dx-USB HD for AES output.  Both options have capability for clocking. 

 

The Antipodes DX Gen3 is only USB output.  The DX Gen2 has both USB and AES outputs.

 

What are you guys using for a remote.  I see that you can use an Apple remote.  Is that Apple's inexpensive little silver sliver of a remote?    I had one for my Lampizator Golden Gate DAC and really didn't care for it. 

 

Does anyone know if Kii is looking into other options instead of having cable running across the room? 

 

 

Vinyl Nirvana Thorens 125 MKII+EAT JO No5 w/ SoundSmith Boran Cantilever>Gold Note PH5+HDPlex 500 ATX+
HDPlex 300>Custom W10 Server>Roon Rock>Euphony Stylus v4+Endpoint v4 Atom/JCAT XE USB>ISO Regen>
Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 w/ RoomPerfect>GR Research NX-Studio + Rythmik F18 Servo Sub
"Get Off Your Knee, Burn The Mask And Please Wake Up....You Have Been Lied To About Everything...And I Mean Everything"
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Yes, I’m using the silver Apple remote and am very happy with it.  Different strokes for different folks...

But you can also use any RC5 remote. So look around and find one you like. 

I agree that it would be great if they released a wireless Devialet  type remote. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Thanks firedog.

 

Yes, I can definitely deal with the Apple Remote.  I just like that tactile feel.

 

I have been looking for any opinions regarding USB vs AES when listening to PCM no higher than 192kHZ.  I thought I had read that some people preferred AES but I can't seem to find anything.  Admittedly I have just scanned online and not read everything.

Vinyl Nirvana Thorens 125 MKII+EAT JO No5 w/ SoundSmith Boran Cantilever>Gold Note PH5+HDPlex 500 ATX+
HDPlex 300>Custom W10 Server>Roon Rock>Euphony Stylus v4+Endpoint v4 Atom/JCAT XE USB>ISO Regen>
Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 w/ RoomPerfect>GR Research NX-Studio + Rythmik F18 Servo Sub
"Get Off Your Knee, Burn The Mask And Please Wake Up....You Have Been Lied To About Everything...And I Mean Everything"
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2 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

Thanks firedog.

 

Yes, I can definitely deal with the Apple Remote.  I just like that tactile feel.

 

I have been looking for any opinions regarding USB vs AES when listening to PCM no higher than 192kHZ.  I thought I had read that some people preferred AES but I can't seem to find anything.  Admittedly I have just scanned online and not read everything.

I’m getting a Bricasti M5  soon so I’ll be able to compare USB to AES.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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On 2/13/2018 at 6:01 AM, Evo-No-Revo said:

[..]

I have been looking for any opinions regarding USB vs AES when listening to PCM no higher than 192kHZ.  I thought I had read that some people preferred AES but I can't seem to find anything.  Admittedly I have just scanned online and not read everything.

 

I have started with AES connection through Lynx Hilo (PC->USB->Hilo->AES->Kii3) before I had the Control. Now my chain is PC->USB->Hilo->Coax->Control. Honestly if there is any difference, I'm sure I would fail to detect it in a blind test. Hilo is great for low latency and rock solid stability: never misses a bit, even when I run video rendering or disk defrag on the PC.

To me the direct USB connection (PC->USB->Control) makes no difference in terms of sound quality either, but I get an occasional dropout when the PC is really busy.

 

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5 hours ago, PleasantSounds said:

 

I have started with AES connection through Lynx Hilo (PC->USB->Hilo->AES->Kii3) before I had the Control. Now my chain is PC->USB->Hilo->Coax->Control. Honestly if there is any difference, I'm sure I would fail to detect it in a blind test. Hilo is great for low latency and rock solid stability: never misses a bit, even when I run video rendering or disk defrag on the PC.

To me the direct USB connection (PC->USB->Control) makes no difference in terms of sound quality either, but I get an occasional dropout when the PC is really busy.

 

 

Wow, the Hilo is quite a piece of kit! 

 

I am putting together a SOtM and Mutec setup going into the Kii Three.

Mac Mini (Modified)->PPA Studios USB->SOtM dx-USB HD + sCLK 2224->VOVOVX Textura AES/EBU->MC-3+ Smart Clock USB->VOVOVX Textura AES/EBU->Kii Three

That puts Kii Control right next to my sitting/listening position. :)

 

The Mac Mini and Mutec powered by JS-2 and SOtm sPS-500 powering the dx-USB HD. 

-

This setup is basically what HIghend-AudioPC (Audiophil) uses on his reference system. 

https://www.highend-audiopc.com/PDF/reference-system.pdf

 

 

Vinyl Nirvana Thorens 125 MKII+EAT JO No5 w/ SoundSmith Boran Cantilever>Gold Note PH5+HDPlex 500 ATX+
HDPlex 300>Custom W10 Server>Roon Rock>Euphony Stylus v4+Endpoint v4 Atom/JCAT XE USB>ISO Regen>
Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 w/ RoomPerfect>GR Research NX-Studio + Rythmik F18 Servo Sub
"Get Off Your Knee, Burn The Mask And Please Wake Up....You Have Been Lied To About Everything...And I Mean Everything"
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Quick news in case it's interesting to others:

 

I have Roon running on a Mac Mini. This hooks by SPDIF to a bought-used NuForce AVP-18, which lets me connect up all digital sources and sinks (including HDMI) and use a remote. All analogue sources are A/D's - the Linn by the PS Audio Phono Converter, the FM tuner by some el-cheapo ($20 or so) ADC. All feed into the AVP-18, as do the Oppo 105 and the Dish Networks box.

 

This drives a MiniDSP DDRC-22D. This is a fairly flexible Dirac Live room/speaker correction box. As others have noted, Dirac-ing the Kii's doesn't produce much of a difference (it does with my previous B&W first-gen 800D's, and my Celestion SL600Si's). But the box does have Apple silver remote capability - you can change volume with the Apple remote. 

 

So I don't need the Control - except that the MiniDSP limit stuff to 96KHz/24. Dunno that I'm missing much, though.

 

And, yes, despite the Kii's being just a tad larger than the Celestions (these are old British things, like me) they play louder, go deeper, and offer up more detail and better imaging.

 

But it's still surprising how good the Celestions are (or how deaf I am).

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 15/02/2018 at 11:07 AM, PleasantSounds said:

 

I have started with AES connection through Lynx Hilo (PC->USB->Hilo->AES->Kii3) before I had the Control. Now my chain is PC->USB->Hilo->Coax->Control. Honestly if there is any difference, I'm sure I would fail to detect it in a blind test. Hilo is great for low latency and rock solid stability: never misses a bit, even when I run video rendering or disk defrag on the PC.

To me the direct USB connection (PC->USB->Control) makes no difference in terms of sound quality either, but I get an occasional dropout when the PC is really busy.

 

 

I have been using my kii’s with Auralic Aries Femto connected by USB to Kii controller for about 3 months.

 

After getting incredibly frustrated with the Aries’s Lightning App for controlling, I have decided to change. That’s not the only reason, but it has driven me to upgrade earlier than I might have done.  After a couple of trials with dCS Network Bridge and various Melco and Aurender models, I have settled on an Aurender. The Conductor app (that’s all you can use with the Aurender) is a halfway house between Roon (which I find far too busy) and the relatively simple Lightening app (which is too unstable). BTW, the Melco’s, Aurender’s and the dCS are quite a step-up in sound quality over the Aries.

 

Anyway, to the point of my post. Because the Aurender has usb, spdif and aes/eub outputs I dropped a note to Kii asking if they have found a preferred input for sound quality when they did alll their design and testing.. the response was basically “no”. I won’t go into the full reasons but it is to do with the way the Kii’s process the signal.

 

This tallies with your findings.

 

I get my Aurender delivered next week, so I’ll probably have a play for myself to see but the advice from Kii was to keep it simple and keep to usb. That’s where I’ll start.

 

hope this helps

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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Hello All

 

my Aurender is now hooked up to the Kii's .... what a combo! kicks all my previous kit into touch

 

using the usb as connection ..... will leave a few days to settle and register the SQ .... then I'll try out the spdif

 

 

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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On 11/02/2018 at 10:37 PM, Evo-No-Revo said:

I purchased a set of Kii Three last month.  I actually got the demos from Bill Parish that Kal used in his demo.  I really love the simplicity of these speakers and the SQ is satisfying on many levels.

 

I am looking at different options for digital front end.  I might end up with a Antipodes DX Gen 3.  But for the moment I need to optimize my Mac Mini to the Kii.  I am using the Mac Mini for audio/video output.

 

The sticking point I have right now is that I really like having the Kii Control next to my sitting area.  It reminds me of one of my favorite parts of owning a Devialet 250 was that huge metal chunk of a remote.  What I like it mostly for is when I watch movies at night, the kid's room is pretty close and I can have a finger on the dial and react to the volume swings in movie playback quickly.  I literally watch with my hand on the remote often.  A tablet is just too cumbersome for quick volume control.

 

I am looking at options to optimize the AES and USB inputs to the Kii.  What is of interest is SOtM or Mutec for USB optimization but for the AES as well.  I could use the AES output of the Mutec MC-3+ or add the SOtM tx-USB Ultra and then connect the dx-USB HD for AES output.  Both options have capability for clocking. 

 

The Antipodes DX Gen3 is only USB output.  The DX Gen2 has both USB and AES outputs.

 

What are you guys using for a remote.  I see that you can use an Apple remote.  Is that Apple's inexpensive little silver sliver of a remote?    I had one for my Lampizator Golden Gate DAC and really didn't care for it. 

 

Does anyone know if Kii is looking into other options instead of having cable running across the room? 

 

 

hello fellow Kii owner!

 

i dropped a thread on the usb vs aes etc question, you might want to have a look

 

cheers

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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1 hour ago, Mazza said:

Is that Apple's inexpensive little silver sliver of a remote?

Yes. You can also use any RC5 based remote if you have one you like.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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1 hour ago, Mazza said:

i dropped a thread on the usb vs aes etc question, you might want to have a look

Where?

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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So after a somewhat extended delay in getting my system setup, I would finally like to share my impressions of the Kii Three’s.

 

Given that I am looking at three phases of overall system integration, I thought it would be best to also break my findings out into three separate topics.  The first being initial setup, then implementing the Trinnov Room Correction, and finally Subwoofer Integration.

 

Initial Setup – I must admit that my listening room and the positioning of the speakers is probably anything but ideal. The reason for this being that I really did not want to turn my living room into what I would like to call an “audio equipment intrusive environment.” Do I have the space to place the speakers well away from the walls and utilize floor stands? Yes, with some furniture relocation, I probably do. Do I want to do something of that nature? No, I do not. Ideally, I want to mount them on the wall, somewhat elevated and out of the way. I also did not want the cabling to be visible or cluttered. Lastly, I still would like to enjoy a large and engaging sound stage without necessarily always being limited to a small “sweet spot” when listening if possible. All of these factors led me to the Kii Three’s. At least on paper, utilizing their active wave focusing technology, they seemed to have the potential to fit the bill.

 

My living room is 4 by 6,4 meters with a ceiling height of 2,45 meters. It has a hard wood floor with one large throw rug and an upholstered sofa. One of the smaller (4m) walls consists of 80 % glass with only small decorative curtain panels. The sofa is placed in the middle against one of the 6,40 meter walls with the speakers placed on the opposite wall near to each corner at a height of 1,9 meters. Total distance between speakers is 5,4 meters and approx. 3,4 meters from the listening position. Each speaker sits on a Walnut shelf, built by HiFi racks in the UK (excellent quality btw.) and rests on Auralex Mopad Monitor isolation pads with 8 degrees of downward tilt.  I am feeding the Kii Three’s with an AES Digital signal from my Trinnov Amethyst which is acting as a Roon Endpoint connected directly via bridged ethernet connection to my Roon Server PC (located in my office).  For initial impressions,  I turned all Trinnov room correction optimization processing off, so the digital signal is simply passed thru to the Kii’s. I set the boundary control on the speakers to one notch in front of the corner setting and left the contour settings on the default Flat (9 o’clock). All PCM music is up-sampled via Roon to 192/24. I am leaving HQPlayer out of the equation. These setting will act as my reference going forward.

 

I have a playlist of songs which I have used as a baseline for comparison over the last years for any system tweaks so I am familiar with the sound signature and image of each and those special passages where things like the distinct thump of a drum have been heard over and over again.

 

Impressions - So, how do they sound?

Compared with my old system, which consisted of a Devialet 250 Pro and Piega Coax speakers, the Kii’s have a substantially higher portion of impact  in the mid-range. This is really appreciated when listening to rock music. I prefer music which one can feel and here the Kii’s clearly deliver.

 

It is almost astounding how much low end a box of this size generates.  Listening to Camren Carpenter’s Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, BMV 565 (almost) reminded me of listening to a live organ concert at the St. Michaelis Cathedral in Hamburg Germany. (serious goose bumps). Incredibly dynamic. It is so impressive that I really begin to wonder how much my Fathom Subwoofer will be able to add. (but more on that later)

 

The sound stage is spacious and engaging with diverse but defined vocals and instrument placement.

 

What could be better? 

 

1) The center of the spacious sound stage which I just mentioned is a tad bit elevated when sitting. Here I am hoping that more downwards tilt of the speakers will improve the situation but again, possibly not... Perhaps it is just a (poor) placement related limitation? Do any of you have a suggestion for monitor stands which are fairly low profile but still offer 10 - 15 degrees of tilt? They also need to be sturdy enough to hold 15 kgs of wieght and fit to the extended depth of the Kii Case. Although the Mopads work well from an isolation perspective, they are not the sexiest looking things. (Kind of like setting your speakers on a set of kitchen sponges) I am also curious as to your impressions regarding toe-in? What have you found to be the best amount? With the tweeters pointing directly at you or somewhat off to the left and right? 

 

2) As good as the bottom end is, it sounds a bit soft during some passages. I am missing that last bit of edge. Don’t get me wrong, the low end is extremely good for a compact, but if I had a wish open, it would be that last tiny bit of detail. Perhaps the boundry setting can help, but for the sake of a reference, I would like to leave the setting where they are at the moment.

 

3) Nuance of Zing - I have the impression that the magical zing on the high end is somewhat surpressed with the flat contour settings. This surprises me somewhat given that normally a truely flat response has more “zing” than I prefer. 

 

4) Placement of Setting Controls - Ouch. Tough to see and reach. I realize that the Kii Control allivates this problem but since I do not own one (yet), setting things like low latency mode become pretty daunting. I realize there is a lot of technology in this small case but could it not have been done better?

 

In Summary - I believe we have all read marketing material for speakers which can do magical things such as making a compact sound like a floor stander, etc., and to be honest in regards to Kii’s claims about the Three’s, I was a bit concerned if they could really deliver. Given my placement preferences, I think I have really put them up to the challenge, and from my perspective, they have delivered. They are like the “Swiss Army Knife” of the compacts and imo perform at levels where you need to make a considerable investment in equipment, positioning and accoustics to achieve. Are they a speaker for everyone? Probably not. I can hear the teeth of the audio purist grinding when they read this. These boxes have DSP written all over them, but that is also what makes them so versatile. A fantastic speaker for those of us who like to experiment and not necessarily want to redesign their listening space to meet the needs of one’s system / taste. 

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@baconbrain Given the dimensions of your room and the positioning of the Kiis, I would suggest that perhaps you need to increase the angle of tilt to ~15 degrees and aim the speakers so that the tweeters are directed towards a spot about 0.6 m behind your head. This should place you within the cone of optimum tweeter output and give you that "zing." My room is of similar dimensions and I have reasonably flat reaponse from 15 Hz to 20 kHz. Also, don't be hesitant to tweak contours if needed.

 

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On 3/15/2018 at 2:47 AM, phosphorein said:

@baconbrain Given the dimensions of your room and the positioning of the Kiis, I would suggest that perhaps you need to increase the angle of tilt to ~15 degrees and aim the speakers so that the tweeters are directed towards a spot about 0.6 m behind your head. This should place you within the cone of optimum tweeter output and give you that "zing." My room is of similar dimensions and I have reasonably flat reaponse from 15 Hz to 20 kHz. Also, don't be hesitant to tweak contours if needed.

 

Thx, for the feedback. After doing initial measurements with the Trinnov, it looks like your estimated tilt of 15 degrees is almost spot on. It states that the difference in elevation is 15,8 degrees. Although I noticed that I had a typo in my initial impressions review,  as the correct distance from speaker to listening position is 4,3 meters and not 3,4 as stated above. Also appreciate the input regarding toe-in. Will give it a try once I have found replacement stands for my “kitchen sponges”. :)

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Thanks for your impressions baconbrain (great name, by the way--I often feel like "Bacon Brain" describes me to a tee!).  I have been listening to the THREEs for almost two years now and I have a few thoughts to add, based on my impressions, room, system and preferences.  But they are based on just and only that: my system, my impressions, etc.--so please read in that spirit and, as always, take everything with a grain of salt.

 

On 3/11/2018 at 8:17 AM, baconbrain said:

I must admit that my listening room and the positioning of the speakers is probably anything but ideal. The reason for this being that I really did not want to turn my living room into what I would like to call an “audio equipment intrusive environment.” ....   Given my placement preferences, I think I have really put them up to the challenge, and from my perspective, they have delivered.

 

Poor Kii!  By introducing their "cardioid," wave focusing DSP technology, they seem to have challenged us to put their speakers into the worst of all possible positions and we seem to be more than willing to oblige!  Mine are both very near the rear wall (about 8" out), with the right one jammed into a corner, and I listen in the extreme near field; they're essentially set up like studio monitors on a console though, in this case, they're just on my desk.  Not an ideal setup at all though, as in your case, the Kii's have proven simply amazing at getting 'round the constraints I've placed on them.

 

On 3/11/2018 at 8:17 AM, baconbrain said:

The sofa is placed in the middle against one of the 6,40 meter walls with the speakers placed on the opposite wall near to each corner at a height of 1,9 meters.

 

While the Kii's work as promised at minimizing the effect of the front wall (behind the speakers), I'd be much more concerned with the rear wall (behind the listener), in your case.  I'd imagine that being so close to a room boundary would have the potential to really cause problems, and not of the sort that the Kii's are designed to counteract.  Maybe the Trinnov can assist in limiting problems from your close proximity to the rear wall....

 

On 3/11/2018 at 8:17 AM, baconbrain said:

All PCM music is up-sampled via Roon to 192/24. I am leaving HQPlayer out of the equation.

 

I spoke at length with Kii and they strongly suggested that I play all music at its native sampling rate--their digital input utilizes a custom, asynchronous up-sampler and they feel (again, very strongly) that any 3rd party up-sampling can only make things worse.  I briefly fooled around with different sampling rates in JRiver, just long enough to verify (for myself) that JRiver's up-sampler didn't make a favorable impact and might have, in fact, been making things worse (depending on the track).  Given Kii's suggestions, I have since abandoned any 3rd party sample rate conversion; perhaps you might  similarly try leaving off the up-sampler for your baseline.  (OTOH, the Trinnov might have to up-convert in order to work its own algorithms on the signal, making the point moot; I'm not sufficiently familiar with Trinnov's technology to say.)

 

On 3/11/2018 at 8:17 AM, baconbrain said:

I set the boundary control on the speakers to one notch in front of the corner setting and left the contour settings on the default Flat (9 o’clock). ...  2) As good as the bottom end is, it sounds a bit soft during some passages. I am missing that last bit of edge. Don’t get me wrong, the low end is extremely good for a compact, but if I had a wish open, it would be that last tiny bit of detail. Perhaps the boundry setting can help, but for the sake of a reference, I would like to leave the setting where they are at the moment.

 

I experimented quite a bit with the boundary controls when I got the Kii CONTROL (obviously not before then, when users were forced to use those inaccessible, terrible and just-plain-not-good controls on the back/bottom of the speakers) and I can say that, for sure, you are losing a lot of bass energy with the settings you describe.  I ended up with -9 cut on the right hand, corner-paced speaker and a -5 cut on the left (less than I had originally thought--as I said, I have the right speaker is jammed all the way into a corner, so I started with -12--also, the settings I describe are on the Kii CONTROL menu; as I recall, the dials on the backs of the speakers are less clear on their settings, but I don't want to go to the trouble of unplugging and un-mounting my speakers to check on that). 

 

Anyway, I think that there is a good chance that any "softness" you hear in the bottom end is due to an over-cut on the boundary setting.  Notwithstanding your desire to use your current setting settings as a reference, I think it will pay you big dividends to experiment a bit.  In my experience, these speakers hit very hard in the bass and cannot be reasonably characterized as soft in the bottom-end at all.

 

On 3/17/2018 at 6:22 AM, baconbrain said:

Thx, for the feedback. After doing initial measurements with the Trinnov, it looks like your estimated tilt of 15 degrees is almost spot on. It states that the difference in elevation is 15,8 degrees.

 

I do not have the benefit of the Trinnov, but I can use my ears and I found that the speakers are very sensitive to height/rake.  I started with them raked so that the tweet's were aimed more-or-less at my ears, as would be appropriate for most speakers.  I found this set-up too "hot" in the high frequencies.  I noted that the Kii literature says that they are EQ'ed such that the sound is supposed to sound like it's coming for a small distance in front of the mid-bass diver.  When I adjusted the rake back, so that the mid-bass drivers are "pointed" at my ear-level, the sound really cohered and the tonal balance really smoothed out--as one would expect, when reading the Kii lit., but somewhat unlike most other speakers.  That's all to say that, pending what your Trinnov and what your ears are telling you, I suggest that you try and get the mid-bass on the ear-plane, rather than the speaker.  Then, obviously, adjust to-ear from there....

 

BTW, my THREEs are toed in moderately, more-or-less as described by @phosphorein, though maybe with just a bit less toe-in than he describes.

 

On 3/11/2018 at 8:17 AM, baconbrain said:

They are like the “Swiss Army Knife” of the compacts and imo perform at levels where you need to make a considerable investment in equipment, positioning and accoustics to achieve. Are they a speaker for everyone? Probably not. I can hear the teeth of the audio purist grinding when they read this. These boxes have DSP written all over them, but that is also what makes them so versatile. A fantastic speaker for those of us who like to experiment and not necessarily want to redesign their listening space to meet the needs of one’s system / taste. 

 

I'm so pleased you are enjoying your Kii's!  And I wouldn't worry about the purist's think.  Literally nothing about reproduced sound-making is "natural" (unless your idea of nature is for all of the sound you hear coming of a handful of vibrating membranes trapped in boxes).  Yes, in some cases, a simple circuit might do less damage than a more complex one, but the reason for even the most simple of circuits is to overcome the fact that we are not present at the original event.  So I believe that anything that advances the illusion of that illusive goal is welcome--simplicity, complexity, DSP, whatever gets us closer to the music.  In fact, I'm considering the BACCH4Mac DSP package for my next system upgrade--DSP on top of DSP... but all with the purpose of removing the artifacts that are presented by the problem of recreating a musical event in our listening rooms (be these the speaker-room interaction or speaker cross-talk or whatever else).  

 

Good luck as your experiments with the Kii's continue!

 

 

Roon --> ultraRendu/Uptone LPS-1 --> Kii CONTROL --> Kii THREE active speakers (everything on Black Ravioli bases and footers)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/19/2018 at 9:26 PM, input username here said:

Thanks for your impressions baconbrain (great name, by the way--I often feel like "Bacon Brain" describes me to a tee!).  I have been listening to the THREEs for almost two years now and I have a few thoughts to add, based on my impressions, room, system and preferences.  But they are based on just and only that: my system, my impressions, etc.--so please read in that spirit and, as always, take everything with a grain of salt.

 

 

Poor Kii!  By introducing their "cardioid," wave focusing DSP technology, they seem to have challenged us to put their speakers into the worst of all possible positions and we seem to be more than willing to oblige!  Mine are both very near the rear wall (about 8" out), with the right one jammed into a corner, and I listen in the extreme near field; they're essentially set up like studio monitors on a console though, in this case, they're just on my desk.  Not an ideal setup at all though, as in your case, the Kii's have proven simply amazing at getting 'round the constraints I've placed on them.

 

 

While the Kii's work as promised at minimizing the effect of the front wall (behind the speakers), I'd be much more concerned with the rear wall (behind the listener), in your case.  I'd imagine that being so close to a room boundary would have the potential to really cause problems, and not of the sort that the Kii's are designed to counteract.  Maybe the Trinnov can assist in limiting problems from your close proximity to the rear wall....

 

 

I spoke at length with Kii and they strongly suggested that I play all music at its native sampling rate--their digital input utilizes a custom, asynchronous up-sampler and they feel (again, very strongly) that any 3rd party up-sampling can only make things worse.  I briefly fooled around with different sampling rates in JRiver, just long enough to verify (for myself) that JRiver's up-sampler didn't make a favorable impact and might have, in fact, been making things worse (depending on the track).  Given Kii's suggestions, I have since abandoned any 3rd party sample rate conversion; perhaps you might  similarly try leaving off the up-sampler for your baseline.  (OTOH, the Trinnov might have to up-convert in order to work its own algorithms on the signal, making the point moot; I'm not sufficiently familiar with Trinnov's technology to say.)

 

 

I experimented quite a bit with the boundary controls when I got the Kii CONTROL (obviously not before then, when users were forced to use those inaccessible, terrible and just-plain-not-good controls on the back/bottom of the speakers) and I can say that, for sure, you are losing a lot of bass energy with the settings you describe.  I ended up with -9 cut on the right hand, corner-paced speaker and a -5 cut on the left (less than I had originally thought--as I said, I have the right speaker is jammed all the way into a corner, so I started with -12--also, the settings I describe are on the Kii CONTROL menu; as I recall, the dials on the backs of the speakers are less clear on their settings, but I don't want to go to the trouble of unplugging and un-mounting my speakers to check on that). 

 

Anyway, I think that there is a good chance that any "softness" you hear in the bottom end is due to an over-cut on the boundary setting.  Notwithstanding your desire to use your current setting settings as a reference, I think it will pay you big dividends to experiment a bit.  In my experience, these speakers hit very hard in the bass and cannot be reasonably characterized as soft in the bottom-end at all.

 

 

I do not have the benefit of the Trinnov, but I can use my ears and I found that the speakers are very sensitive to height/rake.  I started with them raked so that the tweet's were aimed more-or-less at my ears, as would be appropriate for most speakers.  I found this set-up too "hot" in the high frequencies.  I noted that the Kii literature says that they are EQ'ed such that the sound is supposed to sound like it's coming for a small distance in front of the mid-bass diver.  When I adjusted the rake back, so that the mid-bass drivers are "pointed" at my ear-level, the sound really cohered and the tonal balance really smoothed out--as one would expect, when reading the Kii lit., but somewhat unlike most other speakers.  That's all to say that, pending what your Trinnov and what your ears are telling you, I suggest that you try and get the mid-bass on the ear-plane, rather than the speaker.  Then, obviously, adjust to-ear from there....

 

BTW, my THREEs are toed in moderately, more-or-less as described by @phosphorein, though maybe with just a bit less toe-in than he describes.

 

 

I'm so pleased you are enjoying your Kii's!  And I wouldn't worry about the purist's think.  Literally nothing about reproduced sound-making is "natural" (unless your idea of nature is for all of the sound you hear coming of a handful of vibrating membranes trapped in boxes).  Yes, in some cases, a simple circuit might do less damage than a more complex one, but the reason for even the most simple of circuits is to overcome the fact that we are not present at the original event.  So I believe that anything that advances the illusion of that illusive goal is welcome--simplicity, complexity, DSP, whatever gets us closer to the music.  In fact, I'm considering the BACCH4Mac DSP package for my next system upgrade--DSP on top of DSP... but all with the purpose of removing the artifacts that are presented by the problem of recreating a musical event in our listening rooms (be these the speaker-room interaction or speaker cross-talk or whatever else).  

 

Good luck as your experiments with the Kii's continue!

 

 

@Input Username Here: Thanks for the great feedback!

 

My further testing has stagnated a bit as I am working on a solution for increasing the degree of downward tilt of the Kii’s and am also seriously considering picking up a Kii Control to make my life a bit easier when adjusting the settings of the speakers going forward. Feel that I might be giving the Trinnov a bit of an unfair advantage if I have not fully tested the Kii’s own abilities first. 

 

I do have a quick question to the group in regards to the Kii Control. Am I understanding it correctly that the only connection between the control and the Kii’s is an additional Cat 5 one? Also, has anyone heard any additional rumors that Kii may release a bigger and better version of the control in the near future?

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48 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

@Input Username Here: Thanks for the great feedback!

 

My further testing has stagnated a bit as I am working on a solution for increasing the degree of downward tilt of the Kii’s and am also seriously considering picking up a Kii Control to make my life a bit easier when adjusting the settings of the speakers going forward. Feel that I might be giving the Trinnov a bit of an unfair advantage if I have not fully tested the Kii’s own abilities first. 

 

I do have a quick question to the group in regards to the Kii Control. Am I understanding it correctly that the only connection between the control and the Kii’s is an additional Cat 5 one? Also, has anyone heard any additional rumors that Kii may release a bigger and better version of the control in the near future?

 

Yes, the Control is connected solely to the Kii by a Cat 5 cable. Reportedly a more featured unit with wireless connection is in development, but as far as I know there has been no update on this.

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I received my Kii Control with a long cat6e cable and replaced it with a short one (1,5m). The control is a big step forward in my setup. 

While the Kii is less sensitive from room acoustics, you need to lose or avoid direct reflections. The placement of instruments or vocals are much better without these direct reflections. 

Kii Three / Kii Control / Lush 3 Uptone Iso Regen-Farad super 3 / OpticalRendu Farad super 3 / Etherregen / Roon Rock-Farad super 3

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8 hours ago, baconbrain said:

Also, has anyone heard any additional rumors that Kii may release a bigger and better version of the control in the near future?

There have been various online statements (not from Kii) that a bigger and better version of the control will be  made available. One Kii dealer told me he had also heard this. Not verified by Kii, and no expected date has been published. So we don't know if it is actually coming, or if it is a project that has been dropped.

 

Kii has been saying for over a year that Bluetooth will be added to the control with a firmware update - the HW is already in the control. At last response they said they are also working on a program that will allow updates and access to the Kii remotely, and that they want to finish this before adding BT. When will it arrive? Your guess is as good as mine.
 

If there is a bigger Kii Control in the future, it would seem to make sense that it would also include wireless, but who knows? 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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