Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[baconbrain]

On 7/9/2018 at 8:59 PM, firedog said:

Interesting. What's your setup for the crossover to the sub - frequency, and slope of filter, etc. ?

 

Possibly one of the only weak points of the Kii is that they hit their limits when musical material with very low bass notes is played loudly. 

 

Do you find that adding the sub enables you to get not only better bass response, but  a more dynamic, loud sound? That is, no sense of the Kiis hitting their limits?

 

 

Apologies for the delayed response but work is keeping me on my toes at the moment ...

 

I have started with a low-pass 6th order Butterworth Filter for the sub at 100 Hz (meaning the drop off begins around 80 Hz with the Trinnov) and a high pass 6th order Butterworth Filter for the Kii's at 65 Hz (topping off around 80 Hz).  Using these fairly steep higher order filters, I am wanting to avoid any coloration of the bass between the SW and the Cardoid Bass Pattern of Kii's. 

 

Regarding hitting the limits of the Kii's, I have honestly never pushed them hard enough to trigger the indicator, but I occasionally do like to listen to Hip Hop and Electronic Music. In particular with these genres, without the SW, I miss the "feel" of the really deep stuff when running the Kii's purely in a 2.0 constellation. Don't get me wrong, the Kii's do an excellent job of lower end bass reproduction given the physical limits of the box, but for my personal preference, they do benefit from some additional help on the deep end.

 

Needless to say, given the Kii's excellent Amplitude, Phase, and Timing characteristics, Sub Woofer integration is a bit of a challenge and is still work in progress for me. Being really successful without the help of any Room Optimization Measurements / Software (in my case the Trinnov) would be (imo) tough.   

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - Mitch just released his review of the Kii Three!

 

 

[input username here]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys - Mitch just released his review of the Kii Three!

 

Yay!

[Rafael Sampaio]

My Kii setup: (Kii team used it in their website) 

 

For those who use a different, “audiophile” power cable, is the difference subtle fro

 stock cables? What should I expect? (Due to taxes is really expensive to import goods in Brazil)

 

Many thanks! 

 

Rafael

 

[firedog]

30 minutes ago, Rafael Sampaio said:

My Kii setup: (Is in the website!) 

 

For those who use a different, “audiophile” power cable, is the difference subtle fro

 stock cables? What should I expect? (Due to taxes is really expensive to import goods in Brazil)

 

Many thanks! 

 

Rafael

 

Just make sure you get a connector that fits the back of the Kii. 

BTW, I didn't' know Kii made a rug to match. Can you get that pattern in the any color you can get the Kii?

 

[Rafael Sampaio]

28 minutes ago, firedog said:

Just make sure you get a connector that fits the back of the Kii. 

BTW, I didn't' know Kii made a rug to match. Can you get that pattern in the any color you can get the Kii?

 

 

If they did, probably it would sound great??? 

[baconbrain]

 

58 minutes ago, Rafael Sampaio said:

My Kii setup: (Kii team used it in their website) 

 

For those who use a different, “audiophile” power cable, is the difference subtle fro

 stock cables? What should I expect? (Due to taxes is really expensive to import goods in Brazil)

 

Many thanks! 

 

Rafael

 

 

Wow, what a fantastic view! 

 

The connector’s which work best with the Kii’s are the Furutech FI-C15 NCF IEC Connector. I put together some DIY power cables that I am very happy with. IMO replacing the stock cables is definately worth the investment.

[Rafael Sampaio]

2 hours ago, baconbrain said:

 

 

Wow, what a fantastic view! 

 

The connector’s which work best with the Kii’s are the Furutech FI-C15 NCF IEC Connector. I put together some DIY power cables that I am very happy with. IMO replacing the stock cables is definately worth the investment.

 

Thank you! 

[input username here]

21 hours ago, Rafael Sampaio said:

 

Thank you! 

 

That view is fantastic! 

 

My local Kii dealer carries only Kubala Sosna, so I tried those without comparing to other, high-end power cables.  The differences were clearly audible (vs. stock), though not massive; as a big believer in the power of power cables, I was actually surprised that the improvement wasn't greater.   But, as I said, the difference was audible--and clearly worthwhile (to me!), since I bought a pair of KS Emotions. 

 

Subsequent listening has suggested that it was a good choice as (to my ears), the KS has bested similarly priced offerings from Shunyata (though, admittedly, these were from the last generation) and Nordost.  YMMV, but I do think that improvements can definitely be had by upgrading the PCs.

[Captn.chaos]

On 8/25/2018 at 4:29 PM, Rafael Sampaio said:

My Kii setup: (Kii team used it in their website) 

 

For those who use a different, “audiophile” power cable, is the difference subtle fro

 stock cables? What should I expect? (Due to taxes is really expensive to import goods in Brazil)

 

Many thanks! 

 

Rafael

 

 

Absolutly nice pic....fantastic view.....and if somebody is looking for white Kii stands you can find on http://www.speakerstand.de in ?? They called Diva Stand II....

cheers

[baconbrain]

Just wanted to provide a quick update around my subwoofer integration project. 

 

After listening to the system with my previously mentioned setting (80 Hz crossover, Butterworth Filter, etc.) for a few weeks,  I decided to loop back with Kii Audio and ask them as to their recommendations regarding settings, etc. Here their response:

 

“I would definitely stay way below 50Hz with the x-over to the sub, if I had to start I would start at around 30Hz and below. That´s where the Kii THREE has it´s -3dB roll off point, so you could slowly start to fiill the spectrum below that.
If you want extra SPL from the system, you can gradually turn down the Boundary control to -12(dB). If you do, you want the sub to come in below 50Hz roughly.
In any case, if you measure the room response of the Kii THREE only (with your Boundary setting of choice),
the Trinnov measurement should give you a proper indication where the power response drops off and try to fill that with the sub.
Don´t forget to roughly time align sub and Kiis. I would also experiment with using the front wall as a boundary layer for the subwoofer! The benefit being that you can eq the sub response to put out less energy (roughly -6dB) and the subwoofers time aligned (to the Kiis) wave front will also be cardioid of course.”

 

Given that my boundry setting are currently set at -12 with the corner placement of the Kii’s, I decided to change the active crossover settings to 50 Hz and utilize 8th order Linkwitz-Riley LP and HP Filters. This resulted in a much more distinct bass with a percieved positive influence to the SPL. 

 

If any of you are considering a 2.1 constellation with the Kii’s, I can only recommend that you give it a try. It is definately my preference setup and adds another dimension to an already excellent set of speakers.

 

 

[baconbrain]

Not wanting to sound like a fanboy, but as I sit here this afternoon and listen to music, I cannot help but to be amazed at how good the Kii’s really sound. Sometimes it is nothing short of magical ...

[atletico]

19 hours ago, baconbrain said:

Not wanting to sound like a fanboy, but as I sit here this afternoon and listen to music, I cannot help but to be amazed at how good the Kii’s really sound. Sometimes it is nothing short of magical ...

 

Just the same feeling here..? In my living room the Kii Three's outperforms more expensive systems I'v had over the  last 10 years with several speakers standing exactly on the same spot in my living room.

[TheStupidOne]

Personally I've gone for two subwoofers placed midwall on opposite walls with dsp to rectify the room problems. One sub plays in opposite phase on a limited range (40-65 hz) and the other is crossed over at either 100 or 120 hz to smooth out a few nasty dips between 100 and 200 hz. Here are with Kii only and then with two subwoofers (very cheap, one 15" Argon Bass15 @500$ and one 10" xtz sw100 I bought for 25$)

 

In my experience there's no best way to do this, it depends on the room and the possibilities the chosen dsp gives you. I used Minidsp 4x10hd with digital out to Kii.

 

Edit; I'm sorry for the brainfart of not using the same time window on those two, but the essence should be clearly visible regardless.

 

 

[baconbrain]

3 hours ago, TheStupidOne said:

In my experience there's no best way to do this, it depends on the room and the possibilities the chosen dsp gives you. I used Minidsp 4x10hd with digital out to Kii.

 

Thanks for sharing and completely agree. My intent is only to share some of the settings that I have experimented with.

 

The best way to integrate a sub is like looking for the holy grail. You believe it is out there somewhere but finding it can be a real challenge. ? 

 

[pippenainteasy]

The Kii Three BXT was at RMAF. I was hoping for an amazing showing but I suspected it was not DSP corrected in the room, because there were all kinds of upper bass peaks and was a below average presentation I heard at the show.

[firedog]

39 minutes ago, pippenainteasy said:

The Kii Three BXT was at RMAF. I was hoping for an amazing showing but I suspected it was not DSP corrected in the room, because there were all kinds of upper bass peaks and was a below average presentation I heard at the show.

Doesn't make sense that it "wasn't DSP corrected in the room".

The Kii doesn't have DRC, and isn't intended to. It's DSP is internal, automatic, and isn't  "room correction". The Kii is  supposed to be setup in the room, and then the "boundary" function set according to how far the speakers are from the walls/corners. That determines what the internal DSP does, not the room itself or feedback from the room. The "boundary" setting should eliminate  many of the room reflections by producing  only forward firing, properly timed output. When adding the BXT it is  supposed to automatically integrate with the "boundary" settings already chosen with the master unit.
It also has a "contour" control, which is a DSP equalizer/tone control that can make further adjustments for personal taste. You could use  it  to help calm some part of the spectrum you hear as too strong, or beef up one you feel is too weak.  But that adjustment should be just a finishing touch, and not part of the basic setup.

It shouldn't be hard to get a good sound from the Kii. It seems very odd that an exhibitor showing the unit wouldn't be able to set it up properly. Who was the exhibitor?

[barrows]

8 hours ago, pippenainteasy said:

The Kii Three BXT was at RMAF. I was hoping for an amazing showing but I suspected it was not DSP corrected in the room, because there were all kinds of upper bass peaks and was a below average presentation I heard at the show.

Kii with the BXT is too big of a speaker for the small rooms at RMAF, regardless of DSP.  I listened as well, and could listen a bit filtering out the room in my mind (I have set up 4 demo systems in those rooms and know their issues well).

Anyway, I heard a lot to like once I "corrected" my mind for the room, nobody gets great bass response in those rooms and it is better to use a speaker with limited bass, and then use something to tame the big room mode they have.

Kii did display excellent transparency, texture, tone, and timbre, as well as dynamic shadings.  Really is too bad they could not be heard in a larger space.  I hope the new venue for RMAF next year will offer larger room options at affordable prices, it is a shame good systems get crammed into these terrible rooms.

I only went to selected rooms, so I only heard some stuff, from what I did hear, the good (I do not report the bad, everybody with bad show sound gets a pass with me as it is really hard to get good sound and it is unwise to dismiss manufacturers for bad show sound)

 

Constellation/Rockport: about as good as it gets for me, Constellation electronics always seem to be "right", resolving, dynamic, never bright or overbearing in any way, just "right".  The interesting thing with them is that every price level from them sounds nearly the same, fantastic.  I suspect if the Inspiration series has enough watts that is all one needs (except for bragging rights).  Rockport have been some of the best speakers in the world forever, and Andy is always making small gains.

 

MBL, a rather unique sound that may not be for everyone, but everyone should hear it, but only when the room has some space as the omni speakers must be out in the room to do their stuff.  I love the "MBL sound" in the right space, enveloping and much like live music, wrapping around you.  Not so much the pinpoint imaging that some audiophiles prefer, more of a immersive sound, great for electronic music BTW, and they will play that if you are not afraid to ask.

 

Nagra/Rockport:  Rockport again... and another larger room.  Beautiful sound in here from some very expensive and beautiful Swiss electronics.  Ahh if were a wealthy man and could afford this and an equal donation to charity...

 

Anyone at the show today, hear these three if you have not already!

[Ralf11]

how large are  the small rooms at RMAF??

[Emlin]

Interestingly, Kii say of the BXT: "Astoundingly enough small rooms profit a lot from the line source concept." And they are talking at least as small as 4x4 metres.

 

So what's going on? Could it be that people need longer to adjust to the lack of floor bounce?

[barrows]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

how large are  the small rooms at RMAF??

Very small, but they also have an annoying huge bulge in window side (since the hotel updated their HVAC system).  Kii would likely perform much better in there without the BXT module.

I always preferred using small to medium sized stand mount monitors in those rooms.  We got excellent sound with, for instance, Raidho C 1.1 monitors.  Here's the room diagram:

 

RMAF.pdf

[Emlin]

I just put those dimensions into Amroc. Horrible. Nothing could survive there. Except the Kii with BXT. I still don't understand, but I can be thick sometimes. 

[input username here]

8 hours ago, barrows said:

Constellation/Rockport: about as good as it gets for me, Constellation electronics always seem to be "right", resolving, dynamic, never bright or overbearing in any way, just "right".  The interesting thing with them is that every price level from them sounds nearly the same, fantastic.  I suspect if the Inspiration series has enough watts that is all one needs (except for bragging rights).  Rockport have been some of the best speakers in the world forever, and Andy is always making small gains.

 

MBL, a rather unique sound that may not be for everyone, but everyone should hear it, but only when the room has some space as the omni speakers must be out in the room to do their stuff.  I love the "MBL sound" in the right space, enveloping and much like live music, wrapping around you.  Not so much the pinpoint imaging that some audiophiles prefer, more of a immersive sound, great for electronic music BTW, and they will play that if you are not afraid to ask.

 

Nagra/Rockport:  Rockport again... and another larger room.  Beautiful sound in here from some very expensive and beautiful Swiss electronics.  Ahh if were a wealthy man and could afford this and an equal donation to charity...

 

Thanks for the mini-review, barrows.  I really (really) love the mbl-sound too, I bought the first pair of 121's in the country, way back in the day.  But they are just not reasonable with my new commitment to a minimalist aesthetic (... or pocket book).  But, man, they sound wonderful!  mbl, PLEASE make you G*d darn speakers (or, at least, the monitors) digital-active with network inputs... and I will come back, I promise.  I will find the cash!

[Emlin]

Have the full specs been released for the BXT? Kii were very coy when they announced them, but said that specs would follow. Now that they are out there, so to speak, there still seems no be nothing. According to their website, they still haven't decided on the foot plate.

 

I want them to be good, but first impressions don't seem to be going that way. Yet I still can't think that Bruno Putseys would have laid a turd. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

[TheStupidOne]

It's a common misconception that bigger speakers perform worse in a small room. Given that the BXT doesn't extend the low range further down than the Kii itself, it shouldn't matter acoustically (in the resonance-sense) if Bxt is used or not - unless you play very loud and thus bring the extended headroom into play.

 

The benefit of Bxt is reduced cancellation due to the floor bounce because of a more even waveform, but the room will still resonate all the same. It can be argued that the cleaner low end with the Bxt might move the focus of attention higher up in the range and thus explain some of the feedback, but I suspect it's more about the fact that smaller rooms need some careful fiddling with the high-shelf functionality to reduce the output in the high range, because in a normal room with little dampening and a fairly close listening position, the flat frequency response as standard in Kii will be perceived as bright by most (and clear by some) but in general we will prefer a falling in-room curve.

 

I would also expect the side windows to wreck havoc in the 500-1000 hz range, not only making the sound bright and piercing but also uneven in tonality between left and right speaker. 

 

Pretty confident those factors account for most of the lackluster feedback, so wouldn't worry too much about the Bxt performance.