Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, sapporo said:

If I understand correctly you are in the camp that considers loudspeakers' phase alignment as less important for the listening of recorded music?

I never said that nor did I even touch on the issue.  My response was that I do not see any necessary difference between the standards for monitoring speakers or those for home musical enjoyment.  IMHO, the shared standard is for linear and transparent reproduction, allowing for the differences in listening distances.

2 hours ago, sapporo said:

For me the  underlying problem of Kii's in a home environment is something that Floyd Toole called "a circle of confusion". In image registration, to follow this"CoC" concept from optics, todays' technical standards are clear. What the camera registers has a very big  chance of being faithfully reproduced at home (with all the creative changes introduced during postproduction). Not so with audio. For that, the standards of studio monitors should be exactly the same as those for the speakers used at home. Unfortunately there are no standards for either. So when you listen at home to a piece of music on  hyperresolving speakers like Kiis, you have no guarantee that's the way the artist and the engineer/producer wanted it to sound. Maybe their monitors did not resolve Jarrett's  moans to the comical degree you get to hear them on Kiis? Or maybe some micing schemes or mastering moves did not sound so unnatural and intrusive as they might  on Bruno Putzey's loudspeakers?

I fail to see how this issue has any relevance to this discussion.  The CoC is the acknowledgement that (1) there are no universal standards for the entire recording/mastering/reproducing chain and that (2) it is almost futile to expect that there ever will be.  The only sane option that listeners have is to make their reproduction system as neutral as possible so that one hears, warts and all, what is on the recording and to select the recordings that suit one's taste. 

 

In my personal experience, I find that there are many recording sources that consistently satisfy and some that are outstanding.  There are, also, many that do not but I choose to not dwell on them.

[atletico]

2 hours ago, sapporo said:

Music is always in the ear of the listener, so I am honestly happy when people like their private musical experience. But social life without differences  would be paradise  and some of us are not quite ready for that. Hence internet forums...

sapporo:

Do you own the Kii Three speakers yourself ..? For how long have you listenig to the Kii Three`s to come to your conclusons spread over the 9 postings in this tread ?  

My experinced are based on over one year with seriously listning to these speakers and over 30 year experience with hi-fi equipment , also in much higher price ranges. I have .also worked with recording music in studios and several different studio monitors. 

 

 

[sapporo]

On 5/31/2018 at 9:23 AM, sapporo said:

There is the issue of 90 msec delay which makes the Kiis unsuitable for tracking and video applications. You can turn off DSP to get rid of the delay but then all phase alignement magic also disappears.

Some people report interestingly that it makes no difference.

 

19 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

 

I am one of those people who believe there is no difference.  

I got the impression that you hear no difference whether Kiis have the  DSP phase alignment on or off. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

2 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I never said that nor did I even touch on the issue.  My response was that I do not see any necessary difference between the standards for monitoring speakers or those for home musical enjoyment.  IMHO, the shared standard is for linear and transparent reproduction, allowing for the differences in listening distances.

I fail to see how this issue has any relevance to this discussion.  The CoC is the acknowledgement that (1) there are no universal standards for the entire recording/mastering/reproducing chain and that (2) it is almost futile to expect that there ever will be.  The only sane option that listeners have is to make their reproduction system as neutral as possible so that one hears, warts and all, what is on the recording and to select the recordings that suit one's taste. 

Coming from the film industry where SMPTE regulates DCI as the standard of image acquisition, manipulation and distribution I do not see anything comparable in audio done by AES. I can be wrong, so please correct me here. 

[sapporo]

1 hour ago, atletico said:

sapporo:

Do you own the Kii Three speakers yourself ..? For how long have you listenig to the Kii Three`s to come to your conclusons spread over the 9 postings in this tread ?  

My experinced are based on over one year with seriously listning to these speakers and over 30 year experience with hi-fi equipment , also in much higher price ranges. I have .also worked with recording music in studios and several different studio monitors. 

 

 

I have been listening to loaned Kiis for a week. I believe that they   are  great speakers ahead of their time. The music recording industry is well behind them and this can add to the "circle of confusion" phenomenon. 

[TheStupidOne]

The best advice I can give is to measure the response in your room so that you can see if there's something going on that you really shouldn't blame speakers for. Since Kii have the possibility to compensate somewhat for room placement/acoustics, it's well worth to invest in the means to measure what you should compensate for.

 

In my room I have excessive energy in the 400-1000hz region due to glass windows on one side wall. I could solve that by finding speakers with poor off-axis response in that area, use Dirac correction or I could just turn down that area by 1 dB directly in the Kiis.

It sounds about the same fixing that with Dirac as it does directly through Kii, but it sounds even better fixing that with absorbers in the reflection points.

 

The point is that I could easily blame this excessive energy on the speakers, making everybody reading on the internet sceptical about the quality of the speakers when in reality the problem is elsewhere. 

 

Edit; That being said, music is all about enjoyment, so if you feel you get more enjoyment with different speakers/set-ups you should go for whatever makes you happy. Speakers are just a part of the chain, not the chain itself in that respect.

[firedog]

8 hours ago, sapporo said:

 

If I understand correctly you are in the camp that considers loudspeakers' phase alignment as less important for the listening of recorded music? That is a huge topic by itself and my personal jury is still out. I will be very grateful for any input.  For me the  underlying problem of Kii's in a home environment is something that Floyd Toole called "a circle of confusion". In image registration, to follow this"CoC" concept from optics, todays' technical standards are clear. What the camera registers has a very big  chance of being faithfully reproduced at home (with all the creative changes introduced during postproduction). Not so with audio. For that, the standards of studio monitors should be exactly the same as those for the speakers used at home. Unfortunately there are no standards for either. So when you listen at home to a piece of music on  hyperresolving speakers like Kiis, you have no guarantee that's the way the artist and the engineer/producer wanted it to sound. Maybe their monitors did not resolve Jarrett's  moans to the comical degree you get to hear them on Kiis? Or maybe some micing schemes or mastering moves did not sound so unnatural and intrusive as they might  on Bruno Putzey's loudspeakers? The right sequence would be for Kii-like monitors to overrun all key studio facilities in the world. Then home listeners could really  hear musical recordings as the creators intended. But it won't happen any time soon, and by putting the cart before the horse the chances are the process of "deconfusing the circle" will be subverted.

 

Sorry, your argument makes no sense. According to your logic, the only way to properly listen to any album would be to have the same speakers at home as the producer or engineer had. But that basically never happens no matter what the speaker, so then no one is properly hearing any album - according to your standard.

And has it ever occurred to you that an album might be worked on at several locations by different engineers and producers, each of whom listens with different speakers?  So then what speaker is the "right" one to hear the playback with?

Beyond that, I don't agree with you at all about the Kiis. I think they sound real and perfectly natural, not at all as you've described them. Being able to hear more of what's been recorded doesn't cause "confusion". It  adds to understanding and enjoyment of the music.

[sapporo]

"Circle of Confusion" in audio is not about the necessity of using the same speakers but about the lack of standards.

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html

"The most likely culprits are the loudspeakers and rooms through which the recording were made. While there are many excellent professional near-field monitors in the marketplace today, there are no industry guidelines or standards to ensure that they are used. The lack of meaningful, perceptually relevant loudspeaker specifications makes the excellent loudspeakers difficult to identify and separate from the truly mediocre ones. To make matters worse, some misguided recording engineers monitor and tweak their recordings through low-fidelity loudspeakers thinking that this represents what the average consumer will hear. Since loudspeakers can be mediocre in an infinite number of ways, this practice only guarantees that quality of the recording will be compromised when heard through good loudspeakers [1]. This is very counterproductive if we want to improve the quality and consistency of audio recording and reproduction. ...

As Toole points out in [1], the key in breaking the circle of confusion lies in the hands of the professional audio industry where the art is created. A meaningful standard that defined the quality and calibration of the loudspeaker and room would improve the quality and consistency of recordings. The same standard could then be applied to the playback of the recording in the consumer’s home or automobile. Finally, consumers would be able to hear the music as the artist intended."

 

 

[PleasantSounds]

On 5/31/2018 at 5:23 PM, sapporo said:

. To me the moans of  Glen Gould or Keith Jarrett at the pianos are disturbing. Studio monitors often make porn of music.

At home I much prefer the subtle love story as told by good non-studio speakers.

 

Have you considered that your "love story" which strips out Keith Jarret's moans most likely also takes out half of Norah Jones's vocals and many other things you probably would want to hear?

As far as I am concerned, "correcting" one possibly faulty recording  to destroy many others is not the way to go. But audio is all about personal preferences, so suit yourself...

[sapporo]

Nothing takes away the extra sounds in my regular home speakers. It is some speakers that amplify the “unwanted at home soundtracks”. I actually had a pair of passive Spendors that did that and their intended place was in the studio. ATC has a pro line and the “ home friendly” models. Until there are standards to break the circle of confusion  few reproductions are right where the artist/producer wanted them and the end user is bound to appraise and tune (or not) the final effect, mostly by choosing his loudspeakers. I did not invent the  CoC in audio. Floyd Toole described it in his book and his successor at Harman Sean Olive kept the lobbying to break it. Unsuccessfully. He is the president of AES. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

I have come across the "Circle of Confusion" in photography which refers to, roughly explained,  focus, depth of field and sharpness related to the optics of lenses - imperfest pin point focus but rather a dot or circle. Toole appeared to use/extend the concept to be more about calibration in the recording and playback chain. In photography there is an analogous process, not CoC but rather colour profiling.

 

Perhaps the equivalent in audio would be more akin to frequency response or other measures that would indicate a neutral or fidelity to source.

 

I'm not really sure that anyone other than the recording engineer and others present at the recording know what its 'supposed' to sound like.

[sapporo]

Toole actually meant  a viscious circle of confusing mistakes in the signal recording and reproduction chain. Loudspeakers, or rather the lack of standards for them,  are the main culprits. There is a drawing in his book. 

[baconbrain]

9 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I'm not really sure that anyone other than the recording engineer and others present at the recording know what its 'supposed' to sound like.

+1

 

and even then, it is their personal perception of what it “should” sound like, which is no guarantee that I, or anyone else, would prefer it.

 

For me, music is an art and not a science. Some like Picasso, and some don’t ...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

4 minutes ago, sapporo said:

Toole actually meant  a viscious circle of confusing mistakes in the signal recording and reproduction chain. Loudspeakers are the main culprits. There is a drawing in his book. 

 

So, calibration seems to describe that problem

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

7 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

 Some like Picasso, and some don’t ...

 

I agree but nonetheless, I guess some/many/most would like to see a Picasso as Picasso saw it. Even if entirely accurate in reproduction its unlikely any of us will perceive what we are seeing the same way Picasso did but at least it would be a nice place to start IMO.

[baconbrain]

2 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

I agree but nonetheless, I guess some/many/most would like to see a Picasso as Picasso saw it. Even if entirely accurate in reproduction its unlikely any of us will perceive what we are seeing the same way Picasso did but at least it would be a nice place to start IMO.

 

Agree, seeing things through Picasso’s eyes would be very interesting indeed!

[firedog]

Okay, let's get back on topic. This is not a thread about  the "circle of confusion" or any other similar topic. Topic is the Kii Threes. 

[baconbrain]

Roger that,  here my brief Kii Control review ...

 

So I finally found some time to sit down and play around with my new Kii Control.

 

Although I have not yet figured out how to get a non-apple remote to work with the device (see earlier post), I decided to utilize the 5 meters of connecting cable and park the control right next to my listening position.

 

It really does remind me of my old Devialet remote, but with it’s shiny chrome finish and serious weight, I think the Dev remote was a bit more visually appealing. The Kii Control reminders me of the old cigarette lighters that one use to find in our cars. Maybe if one presses on it long enough, it will pop out to light your substance of choice …? All kidding aside, one big plus for the Control is it’s display. Something the Dev remote lacked. On the other side of the fence, it is too bad that it is not wireless.  Having that long Ethernet cable trailing out the back is a tad annoying, but once one has the Control setup the way one prefers, the need to have it adjacent to the listening area is just about zero. That’s where our friendly apple remote (see above) takes over.

 

After doing the basic configuration, I wanted to dive right into playing with the Boundary Control while still leaving the contour settings flat. I dialed in my previous “non-Control” settings of -11 and listened to a couple of tracks. Yep, sounded pretty much the same. I was also curious if controlling the volume via the Control versus my Trinnov (as before) would make an audible difference, but if there was one, I didn’t notice it. So, I turned the Boundary Control down to -6 and listened again. This time the music was definitely “meatier” but I wouldn’t say that the SQ was better. It was fuller, but a touch to flabby and soft for my taste. So then I changed direction and turned the dial to -12, the “in-corner setting.” I repeated listening and my reaction was something to the effect of “Baby, where have you been all of my life!” Everything tightened up. No flab, no soft, but impact, precision and enhanced staging. The nuance of zing which I had missed in my initial review was also back. I was really impressed by the influence of these settings. Some might question if the setting difference between -11 and -12 could really be so obvious, but it my case, it was. 

 

Note: A good 4 weeks have passed since I have written the above and I continue to enjoy the functionality and flexibility added by the Control. Just small things such as automatic On when a signal is detected from the selected input makes the experience more enjoyable not to mention the almost endless possibilities offered with the boundary and EQ settings. I was also pleasantly surprised at the home cinema capabilities (tested in a 2:0 constellation) of the Kii’s when routed through the Control with minimal latency settings. Sync was spot on with a much more enhanced experience than I had achieved with my previous Devialet setup.

 

Conclusion: Short and sweet, “Don’t buy the Kii’s without investing a bit extra in a Control”. IMO It is worth every cent even for existing pre-amp owners.

 

 

[baconbrain]

Nice review of the Kii‘s in the current issue of Hi-Fi News.

 

Their verdict:

 

Bearing in mind the technology, connectivity, sound performance and substantive amplification built into the Kii Audio Three, this sublime standmount surely sets the standard for every system-in-a-speaker to match. The fact that its inbuilt DSP also allows great flexibility in the placement of the Three is further inducement. But with the BXT module in the wings,  we can‘t help but wonder if the best is yet to come...

 

Couldn‘t agree more.

 

BB

 

 

[tboooe]

I've been planning on upgrading my integrated amp soon but the idea of simplifying my system as well as getting rid of my room treatments is very appealing to me. I can probably sell my integrated and speakers to finance purchase of the Kii.  I've started to do some research about these speakers and have some questions for owners.

• If I am understanding the Kii manual correctly, adjustment of the Kii DSP is a manual process (i.e. listen and adjust).  Are people using room measurements from something like REW to help with the adjustments?
• How granular is the Kii adjustment?  Can I adjust a specific frequency or just a range?
• Is anyone still using convolution filters in conjunction with Kii to get the exact freq response they prefer?  
• Are room treatments still needed with the Kii or is the DSP good enough to not need help from room treatments?
• How is volume remotely controlled without the Kii Control?
• Is the Kii DSP SW/firmware upgradeable?
• Is anyone still using a sub or a pair of subs with the Kii?

Thank you in advance.

[firedog]

15 hours ago, tboooe said:

I've been planning on upgrading my integrated amp soon but the idea of simplifying my system as well as getting rid of my room treatments is very appealing to me. I can probably sell my integrated and speakers to finance purchase of the Kii.  I've started to do some research about these speakers and have some questions for owners.

• If I am understanding the Kii manual correctly, adjustment of the Kii DSP is a manual process (i.e. listen and adjust).  Are people using room measurements from something like REW to help with the adjustments?
• How granular is the Kii adjustment?  Can I adjust a specific frequency or just a range?
• Is anyone still using convolution filters in conjunction with Kii to get the exact freq response they prefer?  
• Are room treatments still needed with the Kii or is the DSP good enough to not need help from room treatments?
• How is volume remotely controlled without the Kii Control?
• Is the Kii DSP SW/firmware upgradeable?
• Is anyone still using a sub or a pair of subs with the Kii?

Thank you in advance.

 

1. Yes, it is manual. A few users have reported using REW and correction and said it didn’t make a big difference. YMMV. I’d guess it depends a lot on your room and if nodes are excited by the speakers in spite of the cardoid bass. Measurements certainly coudn’t hurt if you want to fully optimize results. 

2. With the Kii Control, you can setup just about any filter range you want. It works on high and low shelf filters, and you can dial in specific frequencies. Without the control you don’t have that level of granular adjustment.

3. See 1

4. They couldn’t hurt. Would depend  a lot on your room and setup. In my room I sit very close to back wall, so I still need treatments behind me to prevent reflection to my ears from the wall. 

5. It isn’t. You would have to have software volume control in your playback software, or be using a pre\volume control  into the Kii that has a remote. 

6. Yes, but there haven’t been upgrades sent to users yet. Apparently a few users with issues have had upgrades installed remotely by Kii. Kii have said they will be releasing an app that will make firmware upgrades simple. 

7. Don’t know.

[baconbrain]

On 7/7/2018 at 9:01 PM, tboooe said:

I've been planning on upgrading my integrated amp soon but the idea of simplifying my system as well as getting rid of my room treatments is very appealing to me. I can probably sell my integrated and speakers to finance purchase of the Kii.  I've started to do some research about these speakers and have some questions for owners.

• If I am understanding the Kii manual correctly, adjustment of the Kii DSP is a manual process (i.e. listen and adjust).  Are people using room measurements from something like REW to help with the adjustments?
• How granular is the Kii adjustment?  Can I adjust a specific frequency or just a range?
• Is anyone still using convolution filters in conjunction with Kii to get the exact freq response they prefer?  
• Are room treatments still needed with the Kii or is the DSP good enough to not need help from room treatments?
• How is volume remotely controlled without the Kii Control?
• Is the Kii DSP SW/firmware upgradeable?
• Is anyone still using a sub or a pair of subs with the Kii?

Thank you in advance.

 

 

In regards to your last point, I am using my Fathom SW together with the Kii‘s and performing the bass management with my Trinnov in a 2.1 constellation. Although the integration was a bit challenging, I am quite pleased with the results.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, baconbrain said:

 

 

In regards to your last point, I am using my Fathom SW together with the Kii‘s and performing the bass management with my Trinnov in a 2.1 constellation. Although the integration was a bit challenging, I am quite pleased with the results.

Interesting. What's your setup for the crossover to the sub - frequency, and slope of filter, etc. ?

 

Possibly one of the only weak points of the Kii is that they hit their limits when musical material with very low bass notes is played loudly. 

 

Do you find that adding the sub enables you to get not only better bass response, but  a more dynamic, loud sound? That is, no sense of the Kiis hitting their limits?

 

[input username here]

19 hours ago, firedog said:

Interesting. What's your setup for the crossover to the sub - frequency, and slope of filter, etc. ?

 

Possibly one of the only weak points of the Kii is that they hit their limits when musical material with very low bass notes is played loudly. 

 

Do you find that adding the sub enables you to get not only better bass response, but  a more dynamic, loud sound? That is, no sense of the Kiis hitting their limits?

 

 

When I first got my Kii's, they actually had the earlier, pre-release firmware loaded on them and so the limiter warning light was defaulted to "on." I was surprised how limited they were (how often the light went on).  Don't get me wrong, you have to really push them for this to happen (for instance, playing 808 drum samples at high volume) but, when pushed, their limits were hit often.  When limited, they just don't play as loud as called for, they don't actually clip, so they were not "unpleasant" sounding when this happened--I can only imagine I was missing something in their ultimate dynamic range (without a reference, I can't even say how much bass I was missing).  Notwithstanding, I can really see the point to the BXT and/or an external sub with certain applications and/or musical tastes. 

 

(BTW, if you're curious about how much you might "need" the BXTs or a sub, you can turn the warning lights on in the CONTROL software, though I chose to leave them off--if the limiting wasn't sonically distracting on its own, I didn't see the benefit in distracting myself with a little red light when trying to enjoy my music.)

 

 

[hattrick15]

On 7/9/2018 at 10:14 AM, baconbrain said:

 

 

In regards to your last point, I am using my Fathom SW together with the Kii‘s and performing the bass management with my Trinnov in a 2.1 constellation. Although the integration was a bit challenging, I am quite pleased with the results.

 

If one of the main points of getting the Kii is to properly handle the direction of bass, doesn’t having a separate sub defeat the purpose of the Kii’s DSP?  

 

Can you explain more about how the sub increases the sound quality and more detail on how it is hooked up and the equipment/software you are using (I don’t know what Fathom SW, Trinnov, and a 2.1 constellation are referring to).  

 

Thanks in in advance for your insights.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, hattrick15 said:

 

If one of the main points of getting the Kii is to properly handle the direction of bass, doesn’t having a separate sub defeat the purpose of the Kii’s DSP?  

 

Can you explain more about how the sub increases the sound quality and more detail on how it is hooked up and the equipment/software you are using (I don’t know what Fathom SW, Trinnov, and a 2.1 constellation are referring to).  

 

Thanks in in advance for your insights.

The directional bass is only from about 80hz and up. Below that it isn't directed. It The cardoid bass pattern makes a huge difference, but it doesn't totally solve all problems.