To dCS or to Sonore...To Bridge or to Rendu?

[Cyrus]

To dCS or to Sonore....To Bridge or to Rendu?

 

Current system:

 

Small Green Computer sonicTransporter AP as Roon Core

 

SOtM dCBL-CAT7 > iso-CAT6 > Black Cable > Sonore microRendu > Uptone Regen > Schiit Yggdrasil

 

mR and Regen powered by separate Uptone UltraCap LPS-1s

 

HDPlex powering sonicTransporter, LPS-1s, etc.

 

Supra CAT8 for LAN connections to the Ethernet Switch, Router, etc.

 

If the rest of the system components, power, cabling, etc. are important let me know and I will provide the details.

 

 

In usage, I am approaching 100% Tidal via Roon.

 

Note: I was in the first wave for the ISO REGEN, but had a bad board. So the ISO will replace the Regen, hopefully sometime in August. 

 

 

 

Here's what I'm asking CA members:

 

 

- I am looking to upgrade my system. 

 

- I'd like to be able to simplify the upstream bits/pieces/cables/power supplies, etc., if possible and if it results in improved performance.

 

 

 

Since I am already deeply integrated with Sonore, Uptone, and Small Green Computer (and recently SOtM),

 

-  Should I stay within the ecosystem I'm familiar with and move forward with an UltraRendu or the Signature Rendu SE or an SOtM box?

 

 

Or experiment?  

 

-  And bring in the dCS Network Bridge (LAN in) and (AES out) to the Schiit Yggdrasil. 

 

[Note: I realize that I will not be able to utilze both AES outputs from the dCS; And have fingers crossed, that the speculated future USB output is compatible with the Yggy or a future DAC]

 

 

Advantages? Disadvantages? Pros? Cons? Advice? Other stuff to consider? What would you do?

 

- For those that have experience with the dCS Network Bridge, your impressions will be very helpful.

 

- I realize that the UltraRendu and the Signature Rendu SE are brand new and soon to be released, respectively; AND that I can follow impressions of each in their threads.

 

 

Thanks! 

[Madra]

suggestion 1 (cheapest): Upgrade Yggdrasil to USB Gen 5

Initial reports indicate that this upgrade renders the USB input immune to what goes in front of it. This is a cheap upgrade and will let you simplify your system by getting rid of many boxes and PS. 

 

Suggestion 2 (more expensive): Try a good DDC

I helped a friend install a Sonic Transporter (roon core) / Micro Rendu system with the ifi power supply. The sound was a  major disappointment. We tested a couple of higher end DDCs ( the Berkely Alpha USB and the Soulution 590 USB and both gave excellent results, (going SPDIF into Devialet monos) with the Soulution slightly ahead. Adding a Sonore Signature PS did not provide additional SQ gains over the ifi PS. Both of these DDCs will allow you to connect via AES EBU to your Yggdrasil.

 

Suggestion 3: DCS Bridge

Initial reviews are very positive. Unless you want more than 24/196 and 64DSD, this is by far the most elegant solution: One box, regular power cable, network in, AES EBU out to the Yggdrasil.

 

I have an aversion to multiple boxes multiple cables multiple PS solutions. This has nothing to do with performance, just a personal dislike.

 

[Cyrus]

@Madra    Thank you!

 

1. Yes! : ) I am planning on upgrading to the Gen 5 board, but will wait until I can do the install myself (vs. sending it in). It will be interesting to see how the Yggy does on it's own, post the Gen 5 board, and whether the added upstream stuff makes a positive contribution or not.

 

2. Agreed on the DDC options.

 

My experience with the SGC sonicTransporter powered by the HDPlex; The Uptone microRendu (2.5) into the Uptone Regen (both powered by individual LPS-1s); and the cabling used (upgraded DC cables, the Cardas USB adaptors/USPCB, and my Ethernet cable choices); is different than your findings as it has resulted in exceptional sound quality. I expect an uptick, once the ISO REGEN is in the mix.

 

I also believe the overall sound quality is most certainly related to the contributions from the rest of the upstream (power supplies / power cabling / conditioning) and downstream on (from the DAC on) chain. There are so many variables.... hard to say without my actually bringing in a DDC and/or the dCS Network Bridge. 

 

(As an aside, one dealer for dCS said the Network Bridge beat the Berkeley USB in an A/B and they were very surprised since it wasn't close (they are also a Berkeley dealer). Note: this is a relayed comment, so take it as such.

 

3. To your point, this is why I'm strongly considering the dCS Network Bridge. I don't need anything more than what the dCS Network Bridge does. If they update to allow for MQA unfolding...that will be a plus.

 

In terms of additional spend for each component: If I go with the Network Bridge or the Signature Rendu SE the added power cable is a wash. If I go with the Ultra Rendu, I would save on the power cable and I will use the LPS-1 which I already have (this makes the Ultra Rendu the most cost effective option). The Network Bridge will require a spend on an AES cable.

 

Thanks again for your post. It was very helpful.

[Albrecht]

15 hours ago, Cyrus said:

To dCS or to Sonore....To Bridge or to Rendu?

 

Current system:

 

Small Green Computer sonicTransporter AP as Roon Core

 

SOtM dCBL-CAT7 > iso-CAT6 > Black Cable > Sonore microRendu > Uptone Regen > Schiit Yggdrasil

 

mR and Regen powered by separate Uptone UltraCap LPS-1s

 

Upgrade your DAC. Even without making changes to your "digital transport" part of your front end, - you'd be pushing around $5000? The Yggy is a decent $2000 DAC, but way below the big boys of Meitner, APL, Berkeley, MIT, - etc. Many of these great sounding DACs can be had for used for $5000. Even the Auralic is much better than the Yggy, - no matter what you throw in the front of it.

[matthias]

Maybe you get some insights here:

 

Matt

[Cyrus]

@Albrecht  Thanks for your suggestion. I am open to a new or used DAC. Currently under consideration are the Metrum Adagio, Emm Labs DAC2X, TotalDac, and dCS Debussy with the Adagio in the lead. I will take a look at the brands you are recommending, within my budget constraints.

 

For now, however, I am focusing on the Network Bridge, or Signature Rendu SE, or UltraRendu, or SOtM and would like to see how much more I can squeeze out of my current system before a DAC change-up.

 

@matthias  I have taken a look at the thread. Hoping CA head honcho Chris will come through with his reviews and comparisons soon. 

 

 

[Raimund Heubel]

Hi Cyrus,

 

given the Adagio's much lower price point compared to the competition you listed above I am really wondering why the Adagio does not get much more attention in this and other High-Fidelity forums. I agree with Albrecht that exchanging the Yggi against an even better DAC appears to be the most promising solution for you to expect a step change in performance. I am 100% sure the Adagio won't disappoint you, it is a wonderful, analog sounding NOS-DAC.

[unbalanced output]

If you're at TotalDAC and dCS level, there are some serious options to consider. Lampizator, Rockna and Chord are always top names to consider. Take your time to test and decide. I personally wouldn't accept anything on this level that doesn't accept DSD or DXD, so the Adagio may be a very good DAC sound-wise (haven't listened to it), however it is quite limited. 

[firedog]

Check Playback Designs. As good or better than some of those mentioned here. Prices not in the stratosphere (relatively) for some very good gear.

[unbalanced output]

13 minutes ago, firedog said:

Check Playback Designs. As good or better than some of those mentioned here. Prices not in the stratosphere (relatively) for some very good gear.

 

There was one for sale here on the forum some time ago (maybe still is?). I read very little about it. On the "not exactly cheap" league either - have you ever listened to it?

[Raimund Heubel]

24 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

I personally wouldn't accept anything on this level that doesn't accept DSD or DXD, so the Adagio may be a very good DAC sound-wise (haven't listened to it), however it is quite limited. 

I would not call the Adagio limited, technology wise the opposite is the case! Since when is DSD capability a sign of a good quality DAC?

I however still believe that the key to a really good sounding digital set-up lies in the quality grade of the DAC involved. Hence my suggestion to Cyrus to optimize his system in this regard than exchanging/enhancing the digital source.

 

[unbalanced output]

I didn't say it was not a good DAC. However, the Adagio does 96 through optical and 192 through Coaxial. If that floats your boat, great. But IMO unless one strictly wants to stick to CD format, one would be silly to invest that sort of money into equipment which cannot handle a studio-quality recording. 

 

ps. I never said DSD is a requirement for a good DAC. You're aware that DXD is PCM, right?

 

 

[firedog]

23 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

 

There was one for sale here on the forum some time ago (maybe still is?). I read very little about it. On the "not exactly cheap" league either - have you ever listened to it?

Yes, I auditioned a lot of DACs in the last year. Liked their Sonoma DAC the most of any DAC I heard under $10K. They also make some other models. A new higher end line is also about to come out. 

[Raimund Heubel]

11 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

I didn't say it was not a good DAC. However, the Adagio does 96 through optical and 192 through Coaxial. If that floats your boat, great. But IMO unless one strictly wants to stick to CD format, one would be silly to invest that sort of money into equipment which cannot handle a studio-quality recording. 

 

ps. I never said DSD is a requirement for a good DAC. You're aware that DXD is PCM, right?

 

 

Nobody would connect the Adagio through its optical input. Studio quality recordings are not linked to DSD, the vast majority of them are still recorded in either 24 bit/192 kHz or 24 bit/96 kHz PCM format which you can enjoy through the Adagio's AES/EBU, Coaxial or USB input as with most other modern DACs on the market.

What the Adagio separates from its main competitors is the R2R ladder and "forward correction" technology which makes it sounding so natural and analog like. On top it will save you a pre-amplifier if you ever needed one in the first place.

So in my opinion there are lots of good reasons to consider the Adagio if you are looking for the 'End Game'-DAC.

[unbalanced output]

12 minutes ago, firedog said:

Yes, I auditioned a lot of DACs in the last year. Liked their Sonoma DAC the most of any DAC I heard under $10K. They also make some other models. A new higher end line is also about to come out. 

 

Seen on their site it's FPGA based with internal upsampling. Indeed is interesting and I bet it looks good too. Never seen it!

 

7 minutes ago, Raimund Heubel said:

Nobody would connect the Adagio through its optical input. Studio quality recordings are not linked to DSD, the vast majority of them are still recorded in either 24 bit/192 kHz or 24 bit/96 kHz PCM format which you can enjoy through the Adagio's AES/EBU, Coaxial or USB input as with most other modern DACs on the market.

What the Adagio separates from its main competitors is the R2R ladder and "forward correction" technology which makes it sounding so natural and analog like. On top it will save you a pre-amplifier if you ever needed one in the first place.

So in my opinion there are lots of good reasons to consider the Adagio if you are looking for the 'End Game'-DAC.

 

OP already has a fine NOS DAC and is looking for advice on upgrading it. I stand by my advice that it is just it is not wise to pour big money on a DAC that can't do more than what his current system already does. Currently he's happy with TIDAL, but what if he decides to go the next step in his upgraded system? Get an Adagio now and upgrade again right after? 

[Raimund Heubel]

23 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

Get an Adagio now and upgrade again right after? 

Why would he need to upgrade again? Because of missing DSD capability in the Adagio? Not at all....!

I will stop here, enough unwanted hi-jacking of this thread, I am sure Cyrus will be able to make a good decision by himself.

But does the Adagio not have 8, yes eight (!), FPGA chips integrated into the eight DAC 2 chips and upcoming MQA licensing...., stop here! Please!

 

[unbalanced output]

Not sure why the craze on the Adagio.  I've considered the Pavane myself, but the lack of higher resolution inputs was a big let down. I see you have a T+A DAC 8, do you upsample everything to DSD512 like everyone recommends? 

[Raimund Heubel]

I do own the original DAC 8 w/o DSD chips since 2013 but will very likely upgrade to the Pavane Level 3 or Adagio in due course after I was able to audition the Adagio in my current set-up for as long as two weeks. There is no crazyness about the Adagio, this DAC did convince my ears in my system, I never heard recorded music any better or more realistic.

I am indeed looking for an 'End Game' like DAC to futher enhance my current rig.

Before I will finally decide I will give the new, battery powered Bakoon DAC-21 a serious listen still in August. This may become a bit of a cheaper alternative to the Adagio but it will need to perform as good as the Adagio. I do like the idea of clean battery power and the unique current-to-voltage conversion in the Satri IC inside the Bakoon.

Compared to other High End DACs in the market these two come with new, fresh and unique design ideas at an still - in my mind - affordable price point.

[George Hincapie]

1 hour ago, unbalanced output said:

Not sure why the craze on the Adagio.  I've considered the Pavane myself, but the lack of higher resolution inputs was a big let down. I see you have a T+A DAC 8, do you upsample everything to DSD512 like everyone recommends? 

 

 

Buy one and you'll find out. Metrum make some of the best DACs in the World.

[George Hincapie]

On 8/1/2017 at 6:05 AM, Madra said:

 

 

Suggestion 3: DCS Bridge

Initial reviews are very positive. Unless you want more than 24/196 and 64DSD, this is by far the most elegant solution: One box, regular power cable, network in, AES EBU out to the Yggdrasil.

 

Is that a joke? The DCS is stupidly expensive; there are very good one box solutions that cost far less than the DCS. Look around.

[matthias]

18 minutes ago, George Hincapie said:

 

Is that a joke? The DCS is stupidly expensive; there are very good one box solutions that cost far less than the DCS. Look around.

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/dcs-network-bridge

 

Which very good one box solutions would you recommend?

 

Matt

[George Hincapie]

13 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/dcs-network-bridge

 

Which very good one box solutions would you recommend?

 

Matt

 

I had the Auralic Aries (Femto) with a LPSU. That was very good. Half the price of the DCS and outputs to AES as well.

 

People can spend their money how they please, but do it in an informed way at least

[Cyrus]

Hi everyone. The OK DAC shootout is fascinating!  

 

I appreciate the recommendations and the back and forth between members. Everyone has added more information for me to consider regarding specific choices. Thank you.

 

My primary goal, as my opening post says, is to look for a solution to bring more out from what I currently have, which is the Schiit Yggdrasil. It has responded well to the upstream changes / optimization already in place; and I believe the products I'm asking about will push it's performance further. These are also products I can utilize with a future DAC, so investing in them is not limited to the Yggy.

 

I realize that there are other DACs that I might prefer to the Yggy, which as all of you know is limited to 24/192 PCM across it's inputs. Schiit isn't likely to go MQA either (likely an understatement). 

 

It might help to explain why the Metrum Adagio, for me, is at the top of my list:

 

1. Cost. It is on the low end (even new) vs. the other options mentioned in this thread.

 

2. It would go into my secondary system (my office - which is still being renovated) and I would prefer to save some cash by not having to add a Preamp and extra cabling for this system. Keeping the system simple is a goal.

 

3. I like NOS and R2R DACS and would like to keep at least one on hand.

 

At some point, I will bring in a 'higher end' DAC. I'm just not there yet. I came close to picking up a used Emm Labs DAC2X, but with the added cost of bringing it to V2 it was outside of my budget. There are a number of options, used, in the 5-6K (US$) range...but for now I'd rather spend significantly less than that on the dCS Network Bridge or one of the Sonore or SOtM options.

 

I do hear what some of you are saying...that i'm likely to obtain a larger Delta on a DAC changeup vs. my current approach. Noted!

 

Given that I'm all Tidal/Roon at this point in time, something like the Antipodes DX also makes sense...but I did not want to complicate my post by throwing it into the mix as well. And it is more money.

 

Thanks to all for your responses. Keep 'em comin', guns drawn or not. : ) 

[Confused]

13 hours ago, matthias said:

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/dcs-network-bridge

 

Which very good one box solutions would you recommend?

 

Matt

 

This is not a specific recommendation as such, but I think this is at least worth a look.  See link: 

 

http://antipodesaudio.com/edge.html

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/0...er-server/

 

The 'Edge' renderer has coaxial S/PDIF output, so does not quite tick the AES3 box.  Although I am not sure how much this really matters, I suspect the difference between AES3 and S/PDIF should be very small.  It also has an internal DAC with output via a small jack, I suspect this is a relatively cheap DAC and the fact that it does not use RCA output makes me think this is a low cost add on to allow the Edge to at least work in a simple low cost system.  I have not yet had the chance to listen to one, but I think it should at least be of interest because the more expensive Antipodes servers have gained a good reputation for sound quality.  It has good software too (similar to Sonore), and so is Roon Ready, HQPlayer compatible, amongst many others.  Might be quite good, although I have not seen any reviews or feedback on the thing yet, so one to watch perhaps?

 

[Cyrus]

@Confused  Thanks!

 

I have looked at Antipodes' lineup, and if I 'stepped down' from the DX, I'd probably go with the DS GT. This is purely based on sound quality, per the self reporting by Antipodes. 

 

My concern with the DS as well as the Edge and Core lines is that the primary output is Coax. The DX adds the AES, which I would like to have, and as you know the dCS Network Bridge has the broadest set and allows for an external clock should I ever go that route.

 

I'm not sure about how much of a bump in sound quality I'll get relative to what I currently have if I go with the Edge or Core products. Can anyone report on this?

 

The DX and DS GT would also allow for a full replacement of the SGC sonicTransporter AP, which I would then use in my second system.