Light Harmonic Labs: can this company stay viable?

[stuck limo]

16 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Can you point to any guidelines that you would have required them to disclose how they intend to use the funds to grow their business?  

 

The goal of these campaigns is to grow their business.  In the hands of a better businessperson, the decision to spread the investment across a series of products might have proven a total success.  We might be applauding that decision now had he had a competent manager running things.

 

Bottom line is that it's incumbent upon the investor to do their due diligence before handing over funds.  That there was some risk in this should have been obvious.  

 

I stated the guidelines above: "Your funds you donate on this page may not go specifically towards solely this product on this page. We may divert a portion of funding raised on this page to other projects to help our business grow. [insert current/future project names/details if applicable]"

 

What's so hard or difficult about that? Why is there confusion here? Those are the guidelines to disclosure regarding business growth. They did not state this on the page or in the campaign that I've seen. If you have alternate facts, please let us know and copy/paste/cite them/screenshot them. GUIDELINES: "Are we going to expand our business? If Yes, and we are going to use backers' money to do so across a variety of products, by using a general pool of all funds collected, then we will let our customers know." Those are the guidelines. If X is happening, Y needs to be stated.

 

Rightly, people are upset that their [ex.] $500 didn't go towards the Wave, it went towards the Tesla project [that the Geek Wave backers probably had zero interest in]. If I had invested $$ into the Wave based on LH Labs' promises/presentation/implications, and DID NOT RECEIVE IT, I'd be livid if my funds got diverted to a Tesla project [ex.] that I had a) zero interest in and b) no funds to buy a Tesla even if I was interested, ESPECIALLY if I wasn't told up front that my funds were going to go towards that project.

 

On a side note, I didn't back the Geek Wave, but I AM interested in owning one at some point, so I'm interested in the development. Also, I hope to buy future DACs from LH in the future, and what concerns me is they've run their company into the ground, meaning I may never get the opportunity to buy a future Geek Out/etc.

[montpierjazz]

3 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

I think the key thing here is to consider intent.  The tinkering suggests not an intent to defraud, but an intent to deliver a really well engineered product to their customers.  Poor choices were repeatedly made with that particular aim taking precedence.  And yes, some skill sets were clearly missing, but this seems more of a case study in poor leadership than something resembling what Madoff did.  

 

Hi Kenny - 

 

Agree, I don't think Larry's "tinkering" represents an attempt to defraud.  But to give just one example, at the time I committed to the Vi DAC there were no plans for various CCX modules to swap out its output capacitors and connectors.  Yeah, okay, so he's added another bell & whistle.  But then it's discovered that in doing so:

1. Cannot provide both single-ended and balanced outputs together -- no big deal, but...
2. As just announced will need to be shipped separately because of weight, and of course...
3. Despite the endless chassis delay based on Hercules report of receipt with just CCX #1 I'm guessing the various CCX modules are still not ready
4. Bottom Line: I'm sure this "option" provided considerable additional complexity to design, manufacture and production; and prolonged  endless delay -- it certainly didn't help with the chassis manufacture issues, which is obviously a whole other topic

 

In other words, there's a reason why if someone is supposed to be making hundreds of these items you don't create all these various options, especially when you already don't know how to make what you've already committed to.  (Example: Henry Ford made sure he could mass produce cars before offering a color other than black.)  Plus, from a reliability and sound quality standpoint I would be extremely surprised if these plug-ins are a positive.

 

Yes, agree and understood risk of crowdfunding.  But at the time I initially "pledged" (Oct 2013) there were not all these other subsequent campaigns, it was presented as a product and the timing seemed reasonable given what I thought at the time as LH's competencies.  

 

They changed the game mid-stream and hid behind the IGG no refund policy.  It would have been fine it they came back and said: "because we now committed to producing 5+ additional products at the same time instead of 6 months it's going to take 2+ years (and counting) to deliver your product, do you still want it?"  They did not.  That's called fraud AFAIC.

[kennyb123]

24 minutes ago, montpierjazz said:

Yes, agree and understood risk of crowdfunding.  But at the time I initially "pledged" (Oct 2013) there were not all these other subsequent campaigns, it was presented as a product and the timing seemed reasonable given what I thought at the time as LH's competencies.  

 

 

They changed the game mid-stream and hid behind the IGG no refund policy.  It would have been fine it they came back and said: "because we now committed to producing 5+ additional products at the same time instead of 6 months it's going to take 2+ years (and counting) to deliver your product, do you still want it?"  They did not.  That's called fraud AFAIC.

 

I'm very sorry to hear this.  A good friend is going through the same mess and I feel bad for him too.  This was a sh** way to handle things.  I can see now why the "fraud" word is being tossed around. Please forgive my earlier remarks.

 

Larry ignored the first law of holes:  "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging".  I think I was reluctant to blame him because I've worked with so many people in over their head.  They don't mean wrong, they are just ill equipped.  

[foodfiend]

39 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

I'm very sorry to hear this.  A good friend is going through the same mess and I feel bad for him too.  This was a sh** way to handle things.  I can see now why the "fraud" word is being tossed around. Please forgive my earlier remarks.

 

Larry ignored the first law of holes:  "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging".  I think I was reluctant to blame him because I've worked with so many people in over their head.  They don't mean wrong, they are just ill equipped.  

As I have mentioned, Gavin Fish, in the original campaign video for the Geek Pulse, said that LH Labs did not need to raise cash and had all tooling in place. If this did not give the false impression of what was to follow, I do not know what would.

 

While I can understand the attempt at "tinkering", and ending with a more complicated product line than originally envisaged, and therefore facing delays and complications; this does not mean that you subsequently launch even more campaigns without finishing the fulfillment of original batch.

 

What makes it worse was them evidently using funds from these campaigns to then fund development into unrelated projects like the Tesla project.

 

Ill-equipped? Take a look at what Larry and Gavin list as their experience (on LinkedIn) prior to LH Labs. Really?

[foodfiend]

1 hour ago, stuck limo said:

On a side note, I didn't back the Geek Wave, but I AM interested in owning one at some point, so I'm interested in the development. Also, I hope to buy future DACs from LH in the future, and what concerns me is they've run their company into the ground, meaning I may never get the opportunity to buy a future Geek Out/etc.

@stuck limo

Are you kidding? Wanting to give that bunch of crooks your money? I would forgive you if you didn't know the history of LH Labs, but not when it is all out in the open. I will not pay for any of their future products, no matter how good they claim them to be. In fact, there are people who are steering clear of AudioEngine now that Gavin Fish has moved there!

[kennyb123]

27 minutes ago, foodfiend said:

Ill-equipped? Take a look at what Larry and Gavin list as their experience (on LinkedIn) prior to LH Labs. Really?

 

 

 

There's nothing I see listed there that leads me to think they could launch a successful high end audio manufacturering company. Having lead roles at these other companies says nothing about them being able to pull this off.

 

i wish I could point you to the LinkedIn profiles of some of the people I've seen let go because they were ill equipped to do their job with us.  

 

Experience can be indicator, but it really doesn't offer conclusive evidence of their level of success at doing things another job may require.

 

Starting up a new business is one of the most difficult things to do.  Not many are well equipped to pull it off.  According to this, 20% of companies survive past their first year (ouch):

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/small-business-central/2017/05/21/what-percentage-of-businesses-fail-in-their-first-year/101260716/

[stuck limo]

11 minutes ago, foodfiend said:

@stuck limo

Are you kidding? Wanting to give that bunch of crooks your money? I would forgive you if you didn't know the history of LH Labs, but not when it is all out in the open. I will not pay for any of their future products, no matter how good they claim them to be. In fact, there are people who are steering clear of AudioEngine now that Gavin Fish has moved there!

 

Their Geek Out line is great and solid products (again, I've heard/owned almost all of them - am using them right now as I type), so I'm willing to give them my money AFTER the products have been officially produced. And I've always had good Customer Service from them. (I've heard horror stories from others)

 

Also, it appears the Geek Out line seems to be where the majority of their talents/focus seems to be. I'm really rooting for LH to pull out of this negative spin they're in, but I totally understand if they crash.

[foodfiend]

1 minute ago, kennyb123 said:

 

There's nothing I see listed there that leads me to think they could launch a successful high end audio manufacturering company. Having lead roles at these other companies says nothing about them being able to pull this off.

 

i wish I could point you to the LinkedIn profiles of some of the people I've seen let go because they were ill equipped to do their job with us.  

 

Experience can be indicator, but it really doesn't offer conclusive evidence of their level of success at doing things another job may require.

 

Starting up a new business is one of the most difficult things to do.  Not many are well equipped to pull it off.  According to this, 20% of companies survive past their first year (ouch):

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/small-business-central/2017/05/21/what-percentage-of-businesses-fail-in-their-first-year/101260716/

Okay, you can read from their profiles that both have start-up experiences. In fact, Larry is supposed to have made his money that way, before moving into audio. Coupled with their success with the Geek Out Kickstarter campaign, and their claim of not requiring any more tooling, they do give the impression that it was all under their belts. Too good to be true, I guess...

[foodfiend]

4 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

 

Their Geek Out line is great and solid products (again, I've heard/owned almost all of them), so I'm willing to give them my money AFTER the products have been officially produced.

Even if the products are commercially available, I would refrain from supporting a company that uses unscrupulous techniques in their crowdfunding campaigns. While I may be legally-protected in the commercial release, I do not want to encourage the business of that company. That is my position, and of course, I am not expecting everyone else to take the same view.

[stuck limo]

5 minutes ago, foodfiend said:

Even if the products are commercially available, I would refrain from supporting a company that uses unscrupulous techniques in their crowdfunding campaigns. While I may be legally-protected in the commercial release, I do not want to encourage the business of that company. That is my position, and of course, I am not expecting everyone else to take the same view.

 

Honestly, as long as I'm legally protected, I don't care --- I care about my audio experience more than I do about a crowd-funding campaign that went wrong. As long as the Geek Out I buy is solid without issues and I'm assured I can get it repaired if it does need fixing, that's all I really care about. Again, I wouldn't trust them with my money in a crowd funding venture. From what I understand though, according to the gossip over at Super Best Audio Friends, LH Labs is full aware of what the situation is and how LH has screwed up and is supposedly trying to fix it and the business model.

 

That said, I'm not sure I'd trust any of their other products or customer service at this point unless something radically changes. There have been issues galore with the Geek Pulse lineup.

[foodfiend]

33 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

From what I understand though, according to the gossip over at Super Best Audio Friends, LH Labs is full aware of what the situation is and how LH has screwed up and is supposedly trying to fix it and the business model.

That's what they have been saying for a long time (since before Gavin Fish's departure), but I am afraid that it is all lip-service.

 

34 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

That said, I'm not sure I'd trust any of their other products or customer service at this point unless something radically changes. There have been issues galore with the Geek Pulse lineup.

I hear that no one even bothers to pick up the phones! That's why I would be surprised that anyone would buy anything from them at this point. Doing everything through your local distributor/agent may help, but some times, there is only that much an agent can do.

[stuck limo]

14 minutes ago, foodfiend said:

That's what they have been saying for a long time (since before Gavin Fish's departure), but I am afraid that it is all lip-service.

 

I hear that no one even bothers to pick up the phones! That's why I would be surprised that anyone would buy anything from them at this point. Doing everything through your local distributor/agent may help, but some times, there is only that much an agent can do.

 

Well, time will tell if they're serious. Let's see what the latest update brings and if they actually do deliver. If it all comes crashing down to a bad reputation, that's totally their fault.

 

Also, no one has ever answered the phone at LH to my knowledge. It's been that way for years. You have to get in touch with them through email (good luck, half the time).

 

Again, I've had generally good luck with them answering my emails and updating my DAC through the 2A program they had going. Others, I've heard horror stories so I guess it's luck of the draw. Larry seems to respond to personal PMs on Head-Fi (personal experience) and you can usually get answers to a large degree on Super Best Audio Friends from insiders.

[foodfiend]

10 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

Also, no one has ever answered the phone at LH to my knowledge. It's been that way for years. You have to get in touch with them through email (good luck, half the time).

With such standards for customer support, why would one even bother? I'd rather go with a company that would at least pick up my phone call...

[stuck limo]

9 minutes ago, foodfiend said:

With such standards for customer support, why would one even bother? I'd rather go with a company that would at least pick up my phone call...

 

I'm not saying they don't need a total complete 100% overhaul of their customer support.They absolutely do. It's abysmal. I have a strong background in Customer Service and I offered my help up to Larry with no response. I'm just saying *my* personal experiences have been generally positive and I fully understand others have had terrible experiences (including my friend, who they refused to refund even though they promised --- he eventually disputed the charge with his credit card) and I fully get why people would NOT do business with them.

[plissken]

On 7/31/2017 at 9:39 PM, wwaldmanfan said:

With so many legit choices out there, I don't really get why someone would fall for that.

 

You're joking, right?

[wwaldmanfan]

58 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

You're joking, right?

 

I sometimes forget that there are stupider people than me.

[Larry Ho]

On 8/13/2017 at 9:38 AM, stuck limo said:

 

Well, time will tell if they're serious. Let's see what the latest update brings and if they actually do deliver. If it all comes crashing down to a bad reputation, that's totally their fault.

 

Also, no one has ever answered the phone at LH to my knowledge. It's been that way for years. You have to get in touch with them through email (good luck, half the time).

 

Again, I've had generally good luck with them answering my emails and updating my DAC through the 2A program they had going. Others, I've heard horror stories so I guess it's luck of the draw. Larry seems to respond to personal PMs on Head-Fi (personal experience) and you can usually get answers to a large degree on Super Best Audio Friends from insiders.

 

Hi, 

Really thanks for letting people know more details. Here is what I confirm.

1) Light Harmonic and LH Labs are both operational. 

2) We didn't pick up the phone for customer service but our customer service team do answer averagely 30 ~ 50 tickets per day.

3) I spent more time recently in Asia because there are many key components (like memory, screen and battery) are located there.

4) I'm truly sorry for the slow R&D progress on Geek Wave player. We will make more good updates and targeted ship out date in Indiegogo.

5) We didn't use Wave or Pulse's money to support other products. Actually we are doing normal retail selling for Tesla Speakers/GO2A and other products to sponsor the R&D cost of Wave. And the original fund related to wave is not the big number shown on the campaign. That Wave campaign contains headphone, earbud, Source... and so on.

6) I just replied one message on head-fi.org. I tried to jump in different forums but the best thing I want to do is to hire a good customer service professional to work with us.

 

Larry 

[MikeyFresh]

1 hour ago, Larry Ho said:

4) I'm truly sorry for the slow R&D progress on Geek Wave player. We will make more good updates and targeted ship out date in Indiegogo.

 

And what of the Vi DAC Tube status?

 

Surely by now, after years of delays and then the announcement  (more than once) of the chassis production delays being solved, you must have a delivery schedule for that unit too? We paid you nearly 3 years ago Larry.

 

 

[Digital Assassin]

2 hours ago, Larry Ho said:

 

Hi, 

Really thanks for letting people know more details. Here is what I confirm.

1) Light Harmonic and LH Labs are both operational. 

2) We didn't pick up the phone for customer service but our customer service team do answer averagely 30 ~ 50 tickets per day.

3) I spent more time recently in Asia because there are many key components (like memory, screen and battery) are located there.

4) I'm truly sorry for the slow R&D progress on Geek Wave player. We will make more good updates and targeted ship out date in Indiegogo.

5) We didn't use Wave or Pulse's money to support other products. Actually we are doing normal retail selling for Tesla Speakers/GO2A and other products to sponsor the R&D cost of Wave. And the original fund related to wave is not the big number shown on the campaign. That Wave campaign contains headphone, earbud, Source... and so on.

6) I just replied one message on head-fi.org. I tried to jump in different forums but the best thing I want to do is to hire a good customer service professional to work with us.

 

Larry 

What gumption.

 

This is gonna be a good one to sit back an watch.

[ron spencer]

What is so bizarre about this is that it seems the original campaign person, Gavin Fish, has simply left LHLabs without any repercusions from Indieogog? Is that how crowd funding can be?? I have seen posted over at IGG itself that he is still listed as the so-called campaign owner. If this is true, and he has just left, then crowd funding in the case of Indiegogo is a total mess.

 

How an this be?

[foodfiend]

@Larry Ho

Talk is cheap. No one should believe you, or give any more money to LH Labs or Light Harmonic until:

• all the Indiegogo campaigns get properly fulfilled: not just the Geek Wave, but many other desktop units;
• proper customer service and support is established: not just taking calls and answering email, but actually acting on them;
• full review and firmware updates for DACs that have lost functionality due to various OS conflicts (minimum support for Windows and OS X platforms).

[franz159]

I have a Geek Out, nice product and I still use it from time to time.

I also bought a Geek Pulse (now sold) which was good but in no way exceptional by the time it was delivered. At that point in time  many  other  good products with similar or better specs were available on the market with very competitive prices.In general terms, as I stated multiple times, I believe that the crowdfunding model is too risky and doesn't work  for this type of products.   I will never venture into it again. 

[foodfiend]

2 hours ago, franz159 said:

I have a Geek Out, nice product and I still use it from time to time.

I also bought a Geek Pulse (now sold) which was good but in no way exceptional by the time it was delivered. At that point in time  many  other  good products with similar or better specs were available on the market with very competitive prices.In general terms, as I stated multiple times, I believe that the crowdfunding model is too risky and doesn't work  for this type of products.   I will never venture into it again. 

I have crowdfunded quite a few projects in different areas, including audio, music, craft and other tech. I would agree that audio is probably the most problematic, but I think the cultural origin of the project also plays into it.

 

Some projects call a spade, a spade, while another will hype it up and call it the best thing since sliced bread. No doubt who will end up raising more cash, and who will end up with more satisfied backers.

 

That said, I have backed an audio project out of Europe that failed in reaching its minimum funding target, so no money changed hands. However, the people behind it actually went ahead with the project anyway, and still offered the product at the crowdfunding price to the original backers, saving us a bundle on the eventual price of the unit. I think that was the one audio project that I found most satisfying to have backed. The unit came beautifully engineered and crafted, and is a joy to use. So, not all audio projects are that bad... Just that LH Labs some give crowdfunding such a bad reputation.

[Digital Assassin]

I love how that crook Larry Ho dropped in for a drive by post, which was utterly lacking in any substance, and did

not address any concerns what so ever.

 

Thanks for nothing buddy. You are a thief.

[ismewor]

I met them once at the show, I listen to their demo geek and their larger dac which doesn't sound good. and fish and ho can't even answer more technical questions. so i had a bad feeling on that. Sorry they turn out bad. but there still good people out their with good heart for audio.