Schiit EITR

[sahmen]

4 hours ago, Charente said:

 

@chauphuong I have done a comparison per your chain suggestions…

 

(A)  MacMini > EITR > DAC

(B)  MacMini > microRendu > EITR (I used a short USB adapter) > DAC

 

I played just one album that I’m familiar with on both chains:- George Coleman  - A Master Speaks (16/44.1). A Jazz album that is reasonably well recorded, featuring a classic set of Saxophone, Piano, Double Bass & Drums.

 

TO MY HEARING, and in my setup, there are differences. They are not huge by any means but enough for me to notice.

 

Essentially in Chain (B), it boils down to more airiness around the instruments and more body to the sound. It comes across just a bit more smooth and relaxed. I particularly noticed that cymbals on this album splash more delicately and they are more intricate when being played rhythmically. The ‘blowey’ nuances on the sax are also notably more audible. There is a bit less ‘wooliness’ to the music as a whole.

 

I must stress that none of this is massive. I suspect (although I haven’t checked this) the audible differences may depend on the genres of music being played …. The differences are fairly subtle. A Rock album may reveal no differences at all whereas with a well recorded small Jazz set the differences may be more apparent.

 

As I said before, I would not suggest that you necessarily want to rush out to spend $1000 on a microRendu/UltraCap LPS-1 front-end. The end result may simply not justify itself to you. Chain (A) will almost certainly satisfy a majority of people, in my opinion.

Thanks for  sharing the results of all this patient testing.  I also have the microrendu, an ultrarendu and a couple of Mac minis in different configurations, so I find your results particularly helpful. One thing I am somewhat intrigued about is your Mac mini > microrendu pairing. Could you explain how that works?  I have always thought the thing to do was to link the micro- or the ultrarendu directly to one's router, without any computer in the chain, but I may be taking a dogmatic tunnel- visionist approach to this, without knowing it...  I do use one mac mini as my roon core, but it is not connected to either my micro- or my ultrarendu... My typical set up, as exemplified by my main rig is:

 

Asus Router > (ethernet cable)>Ultrarendu(powered by LPS-1)> (Moon audio USB cable)>Schiit Eitr> (S/PDIF coax cable)>Schiit Yggdrasil...

 

I enjoy the sound, but there is one test I am very keen to do, which is to replace the ultrarendu in this chain with the microrendu, in order to find out if, and to what degree, that will affect the sound quality...  That is meant to test the validity of the finding according to which the quality of the Schiit Eitr's sound is not affected by anything that comes before it, but that testing is yet to come...  On that note, here are two questions for you:

 

1. Since you do hear differences (albeit subtle differences) between chains A and B above (and having the microrendu in the chain does make a differenct), would it be correct to say that the claim according to which the Eitr's sound quality is indifferent to what comes before it in a given chain is essentially refuted?

 

2. Have you tried--and heard the sq results of--taking the mac mini out of the chain, and going straight from your router to the microrendu, and then from microrendu to the Eitr..? (Bypassing the Mac mini this way is possible for me personally, only because I use the micro- & ultrarendus as roon-ready devices, maintain the core on an isolated mac mini, and store my music on a synology NAS...  I do realize that this arrangement may not be suitable for you if your rig is set up differently.  Still, I am only asking because I am interested in knowing whether the presence of the mac mini in the chain makes a difference, one way or the other   )

[Lebouwsky]

Good question / observation @sahmen you've mentioned in point 1. I think this claim that "nothing matters before the Eitr" is a bit exaggerated and Charente's experiment prooved it. No one on this forum claims it and Schiit doesn't claim it either if you read their website carefully. It says "it" (USB GEN 5) is the best USB input today.

 

None the less, I've ordered one, although Schiit Europe is having stock problems.

[Charente]

@OldBigEars The S/PDIF coax cable I used was not really expensive ... €50 for a 2 metre length. However, it is somewhat stiff and I'm glad I bought a longer length than I actually need, to get around the angles more easily.

 

 

I buy any cables I need from a French online outlet called Audiophonics ... they are well known over here. This particular item is made in-house by them using good quality, compliant cable and connectors ... in this case Canare.

 

Personally, I don't 'cable-chase' although I did compare with a short silver cable I've had for many years in my box of bits. To me, it wasn't better, just slightly different ... more 'sparkly'. I prefer the Audiophonics cable for more body (weight) to the music.

[Charente]

 

@sahmen  It would be interesting to read your findings on microRendu versus ultraRendu > EITR. I’m staying with the mR and no plans for a uR at present.

 

Your Q1 … I’m not sure there is anything to refute, as far as Schiit is concerned ... perhaps this notion has come about more from the community ?  Reading their EITR product page and Jason Stoddard’s (amusing) blog, I’m not sure they are actually suggesting that “Eitr's sound quality is indifferent to what comes before it in a given chain” ? They rarely comment on sound quality. The closest statement he makes is his concluding paragraph in the blog … “Just plug in any USB cable to our new Gen 5 USB interface. There’s no need for external power supplies, special wacky cables, strings of decrapifiers and isolators. No interface nervosa. Sit back, relax, and see what you think.” So, there is ‘no need’ … but there may be a personal preference , as in my case.

 

Your Q2 … My chain descriptors were purely for travel of music, rather than wiring (apologies if I misled you). The NAS, MacMini and microRendu all go through a NetGear Ethernet switch using standard Cat 6a cables. I do believe it is possible to connect the MacMini and mR directly via Ethernet cable , although I haven’t tried this … there is some info about this on Sonore’s Sponsored pages. You’re correct that the recommended way is through a router or switch. So, I am with you on this.

[sahmen]

@Charente Regarding question 1, I was indeed referring that to a claim I learnt about from the community, and not anything official from Schiit--which is a relief. Thanks for clearing up the other issue about the mac mini.

[Charente]

@OldBigEars ... just a further thought on your comment .... FWIW...

 

I personally think that I'm hitting a musical sweet spot as a result of a number of factors. The fact that I'm playing from Audirvana across Ethernet, a clean signal from the microRendu and that short USB connector to the EITR, all contributes in small ways, in my opinion ... and not forgetting the DAC/Amplifier combo I'm using.

[Charente]

I've been using the EITR for some days now and in my preferred setup it continues to surprise and impress ... some feat for a tiny $179 box, IMO. 

 

Now, I'm not one to complain, but some will undoubtably do so. The EITR is susceptible not just to wonderful nuances in your music but 'could' also reflect weaknesses in your home environment. I have experienced some resulting, occasional spurious 'clicks' from the relay on my Gungnir DAC, since I've had the EITR. I am neither an Electrical nor an Audio Engineer but I understand these 'nuances' are the result of anomalies that prevail in your home, such as fridges, aircon units and, in my case, relays in the light switch circuits. It is momentary when it happens and at first it was a bit alarming, but I've got over it. It's not that regular ... so I stop switching the lights on and off when listening to music whenever possible !

 

For the sake of completeness on this thread in connection with this occurence, Mike Moffat, designer of the EITR, has this to say ... quoted in full ...

 

"I must bring up a environmental factor concerning Eitr/Gen V USB. It seems a very few have been ganging up on my partner Jason's thread with respect to an apparent anomaly. It is unfair to Jason, as the Eitr is a digital product for which the design and responsibility is MINE, not his. It would be like people ganging up on me for, say the Vidar, an analog product which is totally Jason's.

The situation is that the Eitr is isolated – electrostatically and electromagnetically. NOT some totally meaningless term such as trash can plating "galvanic" isolation such as some deekhead wrote a wiki about which has nothing to do with isolation cited in proper undergrad and grad school textbooks. Because of that, there is no, none, nada electrical connection between the input and output USB and coax, respectively. (In fact, there is double isolation – two rubbers just to be through.) What still exists, however, is capacitance. This is the stuff that gives you a shock in the winter when you walk across the carpet and touch the grounded doorknob. Even when there is no shock building up, the capacitance still is there.

Now, this capacitance combined with whatever stray inductances exist in a given environment. (How old is your wiring, how is your house wired, (aluminum?) copper, whose codes, how the phuc is it grounded, etc. So then what do you turn on in this wiring, a compressor? A flourescent light fixture? This can send pulses back through the wiring, which acts like an antenna, and rarely can cause a tic or a few millisecond interruption in the Eitr.

Please note that by far, this is the exception rather that the rule. Also please note that we can do nothing about this other than defeating the complete isolation, which sounds like ass. It is like our (very) wide band Mani, which can pick up rf in a very few environments. Our choices are to degrade the performance for the 2% of the users with unsuitable environments, or counsel and offer refunds to those whose who can or will not tolerate occassional burps.

Here is the counsel: Once you realize that it is your say, flourescent light or air compressor turning on which causes the glitch, either set the light on or off or stop spray painting while you are listening. If it's an air conditioner or refrigerator, that's tougher. Try other AC plugs or send it back.

The worst is to alert Jason as it distracts him from his day to day doings and new product engineering. It only slows down his new products. Please come over here to call my attention to digital problems. Just sayin'."

 

So, we can't have our cake and eat it ... and I'm fine with that. I guess if someone isn't they can always return the product within the 14 days and go back to whatever they were using before. Personally, I'm staying with it.

[Ralf11]

Thx for your impressions

[Lebouwsky]

Thank you for keeping us posted @Charente. Really looking forward to this product, it will be shipped at the beginning of next month.

[mourip]

For those of you that already have a Schiit DAC the internal Gen5 "self install" USB board is now available for purchase on their web site.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

That's what I did for the Yggy. The install is easy but man oh man does Yggy have a lot of screws!

[Charente]

Thanks for the heads-up @mourip. I guess you won't want to do that too many times @The Computer Audiophile !!

 

I've fixed a few laptops in my time and I guess it's not the disassembly that bothers (scares ?) me ... it's assembling it all back again and aligning things up. I hear the LED's are a bit of a pain! Does Schiit provide any illustrated steps for the process ?

 

I'd be interested in any listening views of the Gen5 USB upgrade versus the EITR S/PDIF in, if anyone has both.

 

I may yet do the upgrade to my Gungnir but shipping from France (cost & risk) makes a factory install questionable for me, so a self install might be the way.

[Charente]

DELETED..

[manisandher]

On 09/08/2017 at 7:28 AM, Lebouwsky said:

I think this claim that "nothing matters before the Eitr" is a bit exaggerated and Charente's experiment prooved it. No one on this forum claims it and Schiit doesn't claim it either if you read their website carefully. It says "it" (USB GEN 5) is the best USB input today.

 

[Highlight mine.]

 

From the Schiit website:

 

“Throw away your decrapifiers, regenerators, isolators, magic boxes, and all the rest of those USB band-aids,” Mike Moffat, Schiit’s Co-Founder said. “You don’t need them with our Gen 5 USB input.”

 

Sounds like they are indeed claiming that "nothing matters before the Eitr"... and that it's coming undone already.

 

Mani.

[Charente]

@manisandher My own listening indicated small differences in my setup using the microRendu > EITR ... but there nonetheless, even to my not so young ears. I can't speak for any other 'magic boxes' as I don't own any.

 

Why those differences exist, I'm not sure. The EITR offers full isolation of the power, so maybe it has something to do with signal integrity coming out of the mR versus the MacMini ... at this point I am outside my competence comfort zone ! Those more experienced might like to comment further.

 

Some others on this thread have indicated alternative tests that I would also be interested to read, to substantiate the claim, or refute it.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about my enjoyment of the music I love ... the rest is just mere curiosity.

 

EDIT: And maybe for many (most ?) people it really doesn't matter.

[PorkChop]

Slapped in the Eitr last night to replace the 5-component USB accessory train I had sticking out from my source PC.  Improved clarity and musical detail with a much simpler solution - yay!  To be fair, one of those pieces was an iFi Micro iDSD which was doing double duty as a USB-to-SPDIF converter. 

 

This sounds very good to me, so I don't plan on spending a lot of effort testing Eitr with regens and the like.  But, since it needs a USB cable anyway...wondering about Peter St.'s Lush cable feeding the Eitr.  Would the benefits of each cancel out?

[Charente]

@PorkChop That's some input chain you had ! I think that may be the point of Schiit's claims. 

 

Yes, I don't feel inclined to buy/try anything else in front of the EITR (other than the mR I already had). Not familiar with the cable you're referring to. I use the simple (cheap ?) hard adapter that came with the mR ... probably easily (cheaply) available elsewhere ... sounds fine to me. However, I am awaiting delivery of UpTone's USPCB connector, which I've heard good reports about. 

[Lebouwsky]

14 hours ago, Charente said:

@PorkChop That's some input chain you had ! I think that may be the point of Schiit's claims. 

 

Yes, I don't feel inclined to buy/try anything else in front of the EITR (other than the mR I already had). Not familiar with the cable you're referring to. I use the simple (cheap ?) hard adapter that came with the mR ... probably easily (cheaply) available elsewhere ... sounds fine to me. However, I am awaiting delivery of UpTone's USPCB connector, which I've heard good reports about. 

How do you apply a hard USB adapter in combination with a microrendu and the eitr? 

[Charente]

@Lebouwsky It's a simple USB A-B hard adapter ... the A end goes into the mR and the B into the EITR. Not a brilliant photo ... but hopefully shows the application ...

 

 

EDIT: The USPCB connector is more advanced ... it has some matching electronics. To quote UpTone "...preservation of USB audio signal integrity and impedance match into your DAC..."

[Charente]

Headphones … Ok, this is a bit away from the main topic (as the OP, perhaps I am permitted to do so ?) … but it is definitely related to the EITR.

 

I started out my digital music ‘career’ not that long ago and frankly it was difficult to know where to start. Forums, like CA and its more knowledgeable members, have been a great help. I started with a simple DAC/Amp (an Aune X1s). That was a fairly easy decision after a bit of research … it had reasonable reviews, was compact, transportable and flexible. The trickier decision was which headphone. I decided on the venerable Sennheiser HD650 as a starting point. Right from the beginning, I could hear and agree with some of the community comments … good and not so good. It is definitely a ‘warm’ headphone and for me it was a bit too warm but it showed promise. I also read that it ‘scales well’, so, I ‘scaled’ ! … and have ended up with the system shown on my signature. At each step there were small but noticeable changes to the warm sound of the HD650. Using the balanced output from the MJ2 was probably the most noticeable at this stage of the evolution. However, this may not be the case for other headphones, where it may make a lesser difference or none at all.

 

The EITR, being the most recent addition, has contributed even more to this incremental improvement. I would even go so far as to say it has contributed the most to reducing the warm sounding character of the HD650. They are still warm but it’s at a point where it simply does not bother me personally any more. Clearly, all parts of the system playing well with each other probably accounts for what I’m hearing.

 

So, there is truth, in my view, that the HD650 do scale well, although I’m sure this will vary from system to system. I have no plans to replace them and also continue to enjoy the EITR in my chain.

[manisandher]

On 12/08/2017 at 10:52 AM, Charente said:

@manisandher My own listening indicated small differences in my setup using the microRendu > EITR ... but there nonetheless, even to my not so young ears. I can't speak for any other 'magic boxes' as I don't own any.

 

Why those differences exist, I'm not sure. The EITR offers full isolation of the power, so maybe it has something to do with signal integrity coming out of the mR versus the MacMini ... at this point I am outside my competence comfort zone ! Those more experienced might like to comment further.

 

Some others on this thread have indicated alternative tests that I would also be interested to read, to substantiate the claim, or refute it.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about my enjoyment of the music I love ... the rest is just mere curiosity.

 

EDIT: And maybe for many (most ?) people it really doesn't matter.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful and honest answer.

 

Yep, it is all about the enjoyment of music...

 

Mani.

[mourip]

I just received the Gen5 board and installed it into my Yggy. Very easy.

 

When I moved to AOIP/Dante I uninstalled all of my old USB drivers from my Win2012R2 server. Previously I had it working well using the Win8.1 drivers and going into Device Manager to do an "Update Driver".

 

Unfortunately I get no joy when installing drivers now.

 

If anyone gets the new board working on Win2012 could you post here?

Thanks!

[Charente]

5 minutes ago, mourip said:

I just received the Gen5 board and installed it into my Yggy. Very easy.

 

@mourip  Good to know ... I've seen some excellent detailed and illustrated instructions on how to do a self-install on Yggdrasil & Gungnir. 

[89reksal]

15 minutes ago, mourip said:

Unfortunately I get no joy when installing drivers now.

 

Sorry to hear mourip. I've read posts about problems installing the drivers.

 

I'm currently waiting on delivery of the Eitr. I'm planning on installing it on my Windows 2012R2 server as well. Is the Yggy recognized in device manager? I've read posts about problems installing the drivers and most seemed to involve device not connected or seen problems. Please keep us updated.

 

Good luck.

[mourip]

10 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

 

Sorry to hear mourip. I've read posts about problems installing the drivers.

 

I'm currently waiting on delivery of the Eitr. I'm planning on installing it on my Windows 2012R2 server as well. Is the Yggy recognized in device manager? I've read posts about problems installing the drivers and most seemed to involve device not connected or seen problems. Please keep us updated.

 

Good luck.

 

It shows up in Device Manager but I could not get any of the currently available drivers from Schiit to work using the method that worked fine with the Gen3 board...