Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[left channel]

On another forum the designer confirmed this one is better than other Pro-Ject products in the new generation due to "dual ESS's & extra PSU's". Most Pro-Ject projects by definition have a low budget, but within those bounds this is an impressive little box.

 

If you get one with pink labels on the capacitors, send it back. Those did not meet the designer's requirements, but were somehow substituted during the initial sample production run. He made Pro-Ject switch back to the blue-capped caps he'd specified.

 

The designer is John Westlake, known for award-winning products from Cambridge, Peachtree, and Audiolab. He is currently working on a mini-streamer+DAC open project, beginning with a DIY board kit, just because he wants to.

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, Mshenay said:

 

Thanks for the pics. Guys as others have said, we know implementation and design weigh more heavily on sound quality than just the chipset it self 

 

Yes, i have heard this, but how does one know if it is a good design or not?

I know it has galvanic isolation on the input, and i heard the output stage is the most important, but what exactly does that mean?  What should someone look for to know if a dac has a good design or not....clearly it is not just about cost from what i have found.....is someone suggesting that this is not a good design, and compared to what?  anything better for less than $400??  Less than $1000??

 

And is it just subjective, and not objective?

 

Is it for all music, or all songs, or all instruments....so many times i hear I Like this dac better for soundstage, this one better for detail, this one better for bass, this one better for vocals etc....if there is not a definitive design that is better for all things, then why not just buy a cheap one with a good design that sounds good to you.  I still have not heard one dac that sounds convincingly better than another for all music...put your money in a good amp and speakers.

 

At least it does native DSD!

 

[asdf1000]

On 04/10/2017 at 5:55 PM, gahabana said:

i have no problem upsampling to 705.6kHz or 768kHz (mutliple's of 44.1 and 48kHz).

Works out of the box. Roon endpoint running on linux SBC.

 

As for DSD upsampling - out of the box works to DSD256 on Linux (via DOP) and with one line kernel patch one can upsample to DSD512. I guess all of the above would apply to Windows which I am not using.

 

 

Hello again gaha!

 

If you don't mind me asking, which linux distro were you using here and which SBC, for up-sampling to PCM768 and DSD512 to this DAC?

 

DietPi on a Pi3 running RoonBridge?

 

And how exactly did you patch (native?) DSD512 support?

 

[left channel]

4 hours ago, rickca said:

Companies should hire you to run their beta programs!  Excellent communications, thanks.

 

Thank you. I have run companies. Glad I can still communicate. Managing betas had me pretty worn out for a while.
 

[GUTB]

22 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Yes, i have heard this, but how does one know if it is a good design or not?

I know it has galvanic isolation on the input, and i heard the output stage is the most important, but what exactly does that mean?  What should someone look for to know if a dac has a good design or not....clearly it is not just about cost from what i have found.....is someone suggesting that this is not a good design, and compared to what?  anything better for less than $400??  Less than $1000??

 

And is it just subjective, and not objective?

 

Is it for all music, or all songs, or all instruments....so many times i hear I Like this dac better for soundstage, this one better for detail, this one better for bass, this one better for vocals etc....if there is not a definitive design that is better for all things, then why not just buy a cheap one with a good design that sounds good to you.  I still have not heard one dac that sounds convincingly better than another for all music...put your money in a good amp and speakers.

 

At least it does native DSD!

 

 

This is what it boils down to: does it have a real output stage (analog gain circuit) or doesn’t it (chip-amps). If it has a real output stage it has the possibility of being good. It’s safe to say in this day and age anyone who is selling commercial audio products can build a decent output stage (ie, won’t be total garbage). Once you have a real output stage it comes down to how advanced the topology is, and how expensive parts are. Cheap op-amps are worse than higher end ones, and discrete is better than op-amps. Balanced is better if the circuit is of high enough quality. Ultra fast low-noise caps are better than cheap bulk. Are there boutique / ultra high end components like Jupiter caps, Audio Note transformers, etc and so on.

 

You can look inside and tell right away if there’s a real output stage or not by checking to see if there’s a bunch of stuff (caps, heatsinks, chips, etc) attached to the outputs, typically in a symmetrical fashion. If you don’t see the stuff, it’s crap. If the stuff is there it at least as the possibility of being good

[left channel]

49 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Yes, i have heard this, but how does one know if it is a good design or not?

I know it has galvanic isolation on the input, and i heard the output stage is the most important, but what exactly does that mean?  What should someone look for to know if a dac has a good design or not....clearly it is not just about cost from what i have found.....is someone suggesting that this is not a good design, and compared to what?  anything better for less than $400??  Less than $1000??

 

And is it just subjective, and not objective?

 

Is it for all music, or all songs, or all instruments....so many times i hear I Like this dac better for soundstage, this one better for detail, this one better for bass, this one better for vocals etc....if there is not a definitive design that is better for all things, then why not just buy a cheap one with a good design that sounds good to you.  I still have not heard one dac that sounds convincingly better than another for all music...put your money in a good amp and speakers.

 

At least it does native DSD!

 

 

Actually it does not have galvanic isolation. It does have USB filtering. And it does not do native DSD, it does DoP. Still a fan though.

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, left channel said:

And it does not do native DSD,

 

Still to be confirmed. I have a feeling it does. Let's wait for @gahabana to confirm.

 

There is no way DSD512 via DoP will work with Roon. It doesn't support >PCM768kHz.

[left channel]

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Still to be confirmed. I have a feeling it does. Let's wait for @gahabana to confirm.

 

 

Huh. I just found a post by the designer saying it does native DSD512. Looking forward to learning how though.

 

For the record @beerandmusic I also found a post by the designer saying it does not have galvanic isolation.

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, left channel said:

Huh. I just found a post by the designer saying it does native DSD512. Looking forward to learning how though.

 

That was the only way it could work with Roon as Roon does not support >PCM768kHz which would be a requirement for DSD512 via DoP to work.

 

gahabana mentioned he patched the kernel manually though. Let's wait for his reply in the other thread.

 

We really need all posts of this thread moved to the other one, perhaps? @The Computer Audiophile

 

[MikeRock]

I am having no problem running both DSD512 and PCM768.  I'm running Roon and using a Raspberry Pi3 running Ropieee with Ropiee configured for a USB DAC.  Worked the first time I tried both.  

 

With my other PI HAT DACs, I was never been able to reach the advertised upsample rates on either DSD or PCM.  I tried both Ropiee and DietPi. I thought maybe my old Macbook running Roon wasn't powerful enough to do the upsampling, but clearly that wasn't the problem.

[asdf1000]

20 minutes ago, MikeRock said:

I am having no problem running both DSD512 and PCM768.  I'm running Roon and using a Raspberry Pi3 running Ropieee with Ropiee configured for a USB DAC.  Worked the first time I tried both.  

 

With my other PI HAT DACs, I was never been able to reach the advertised upsample rates on either DSD or PCM.  I tried both Ropiee and DietPi. I thought maybe my old Macbook running Roon wasn't powerful enough to do the upsampling, but clearly that wasn't the problem.

 

Thanks Mike! I assume with DSD, you have Roon set to output Native DSD?

 

It sounds like RoPieee is up to date with it's Linux patches (as Harry is usually).

 

Is that with external power or are you using the Pi3 to power the Pro-Ject DAC via USB power?

 

[MikeRock]

Yes, Roon is outputting native DSD.

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, MikeRock said:

Yes, Roon is outputting native DSD.

 

Fantastic. 

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, MikeRock said:

Yes, Roon is outputting native DSD.

 

And are you using external power or are you using the Pi3 to power the Pro-Ject DAC via USB power?

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

We really need all posts of this thread moved to the other one, perhaps? @The Computer Audiophile

 

Done.

[gahabana]

Native DSD support.

hi all - Native DSD support works (all the way to DSD512) on Linux endpoints. Roon recognizes it just fine. See below (all the way to PCM 768khz). You do need one of the distributions which had updates in last 2 months (or recompile your kernel with adding one line) for DSD512 otherwise you need to use DoP and then it goes only to DSD256. PCM is fine either way all the way to 768kHz.

 

Having said that - there are still two issues that I have when using DSD Native mode

    - pops/clicks that have been removed with 2.12 Firmware upgrade work perfectly with PCM and DSD via DoP, but they show up when using Native DSD. Not as consistent as it was before FW upgrade, but they still do from time to time.

- And worse when switching from PCM 44.1 to DSD64 (in Native mode) often in 1st 2 seconds there is hiss/noise that takes about 3-8 seconds to 'clear-out'. 

 

If all you need is to have your entire content upsampled to native DSD512 or 256 it will work fine all the time as switching between PCM and DSD does not happen.  

 

@MikeRock &  @Em2016 , am curious if you have tested that scenario (DSD128/256/512 do NOT suffer from hiss/noise but but plain/simple DSD64 does after PCM - 50% of the time) - could you check that on your setup ?

 

 

[asdf1000]

Many thanks @gahabana . Lots of detail there.

 

2 minutes ago, gahabana said:

@Em2016, am curious if you have tested that scenario (DSD128/256/512 do NOT suffer from hiss/noise but but plain/simple DSD64 does) - could you check that on your setup ?

 

I was holding back on this purchase, awaiting clarification on DSD512 support. I'm pretty happy to proceed with the purchase now and I can revert when I get it.

 

@MikeRock above might be able to test in the mean time?

Does setting resync delay to 0 seconds in Roon help? I saw Brian (Roon) mentioned that the less time between tracks, the less duration of the noise - obviously this is not a cure to the problem but can sometimes help make it less painful.

 

Thanks again !

 

 

[gahabana]

6 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hello again gaha!

 

If you don't mind me asking, which linux distro were you using here and which SBC, for up-sampling to PCM768 and DSD512 to this DAC?

 

DietPi on a Pi3 running RoonBridge?

 

And how exactly did you patch (native?) DSD512 support?

 

hi @Em2016,

since 2 months most recent Liinux kernels (4.9 and later and even 4.4) have been updated.

it is ONE line in Linux Kernel source ... file to be patched is under 'sound/usb/quirks.c'

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/sound/usb/quirks.c

line #1351

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/sound/usb/quirks.c#L1351

it was added just after Oppo HA-1

[filhodoassis]

Anyone made dsd512 work in Windows? DoP or native?

[asdf1000]

3 hours ago, gahabana said:

hi @Em2016,

since 2 months most recent Liinux kernels (4.9 and later and even 4.4) have been updated.

it is ONE line in Linux Kernel source ... file to be patched is under 'sound/usb/quirks.c'

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/sound/usb/quirks.c

line #1351

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/sound/usb/quirks.c#L1351

it was added just after Oppo HA-1

 

Many thanks again! Appreciated

[gahabana]

5 hours ago, filhodoassis said:

Anyone made dsd512 work in Windows? DoP or native?

just tested Windows. Installed latest drivers from Pro-ject website for Windows under Win10.

Went into Roon, said endpoint (running those windows 10) should use ASIO.

all sample rates/frequencies showed up (768kHz and DSD512) and I could choose "DSD Native' as mode for DSD. Then I tried upsampling all content in Roon to DSD512. Played flawless. Tried MQA as well (w/o upsampling to DSD) - no more hickups.

Didn't bother trying WASAP, ASIO seems to work perfectly fine in all scenarios. 

 

In addition unlike Linux, when using DSD Native (64, 128 or whatever source is) - there are no clicks nor hiss after it switches from PCM to DSD. On Linux one has to use DSD DoP to avoid those problems.

 

So my testing/conclusion is:

if you use Windows 10 all works well. PCM, DSD via DOP (up to 256), MQA and DSD Native (up to 512). No pops/clicks in any scenario.

If you use Linux almost all is the same as above with exception noise at start after using DSD in Native mode (Dop is fine) when source changes from PCM44.1 to DSD64. 

 

I have already complaigned on pinkfishmedia about that but not sure if anyone really cares as 80% of the people use windows and rest either Mac Or Linux.

 

Even as it is - it sounds great and is one of the most versatile DACs esp with USB/computer sources !

 

my 2 cents

[wushuliu]

Clock's already ticking for Pro-ject. Now you can get a decent looking mid-grade ES9038 Q2M portable PLUS an xmos208 for $200. That was even faster than my earlier projection. Topping isn't going to titillate this crowd but they make decent budget gear and have for some years now. So that $399 is already starting to look a little much.

 

Not saying the Pro-ject isn't better. Would certainly hope so for the price. Just providing perspective at just how quickly the dac market turns around now.

[left channel]

12 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

Clock's already ticking for Pro-ject. Now you can get a decent looking mid-grade ES9038 Q2M portable PLUS an xmos208 for $200. That was even faster than my earlier projection. Topping isn't going to titillate this crowd but they make decent budget gear and have for some years now. So that $399 is already starting to look a little much.

 

Not saying the Pro-ject isn't better. Would certainly hope so for the price. Just providing perspective at just how quickly the dac market turns around now.

 

That link didn't work. Happens sometimes, somehow we get linked back to current CA page. Can you still edit that post, or reply with the link?

[firedog]

15 hours ago, left channel said:

 

Actually it does not have galvanic isolation. It does have USB filtering. And it does not do native DSD, it does DoP. Still a fan though.

You are going to start an argument with TedB. DoP is native DSD playback, as there is no conversion to PCM. That's the definition of "native" playback. See the JRiver wiki for the explanation:

 

Quote

DSD over PCM packs DSD into a PCM-like signal for bitstreaming. This is not a conversion to PCM, but a native DSD signal packed into a PCM container. JRiver was part of the formation of the DoP standard

 note also: https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/69859/native-dsd

http://blog.nativedsd.com/the-nativity-of-native/

 

[left channel]

5 minutes ago, firedog said:

You are going to start an argument with TedB. DoP is native DSD playback, as there is no conversion to PCM. That's the definition of "native" playback. See the JRiver wiki for the explanation:

 

 note also: https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/69859/native-dsd

http://blog.nativedsd.com/the-nativity-of-native/

 

 

Actually I get to duck the whole argument, because thanks to @gahabana we know this DAC will work with native DSD. I haven't listened to native myself, but am told DoP sounds the same.