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Sonore - Audirvana Plus 3.1 output mode

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5 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Very simple network. No WiFi.

 

Gigabit modem/router > Netgear gigabit GS108 switch > ultraRendu

 

As mentioned the same chain has no issues with Roon doing the same thing - upsampling to DSD256 7th order.

 

But with A+ it even struggles with DSD128. So I wonder if it's a RAM thing, which is why I asked about the Rendu's RAM.

 

Roon doesn't buffer a track in memory like A+ does.

 

 

And this network chain has no issues with DSD512 either when I had a iDSD BL and with Roon.

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10 minutes ago, barrows said:

Note that ROON's oversampling algorithms are far simpler, and use much less processor power and memory than  A+ (can be depending on A+ filter settings) to achieve the same level of oversampling.

 

Thanks, I didn't realise the difference in power needed was large.

 

The Mac might not have the juice.

 

I know the ultraRendu is fine with DSD256 and even DSD512 with Roon, but have you used the Rendu with DSD512 up-sampling with A+?

 

Can we 100% rule out the Rendu's memory being the issue with A+, even with DSD512 up-sampling?

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Wait, how do you propose to oversample to DSD 512 with A+, I though that was not possible?

 

My main DAC is only capable of DSD 128, and I have zero issues playing that with the Rendu via A+, using a fairly complex set of filter settings.  

 

Mac computers have the "Activity Monitor" where you can see how much processor power and how much memory is being used, you might want to take a look at that while playing in the modes you have problems with.  Here you will be able to get an idea if your Mac is up to what you are asking of it.

 

One other thing, never test high sample rates of any kind with cold gear, make sure everything has been on and warmed up for a bit first as clocks take awhile to stabilize.

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9 minutes ago, barrows said:

Wait, how do you propose to oversample to DSD 512 with A+, I though that was not possible?

 

 

I have an iDAC2 so I'm limited to DSD256.

 

I only threw DSD512 there because the same network could handle DSD512 with Roon with my previous iDSD DAC. I wasn't aware A+ couldn't do DSD512 but never had to try to find out anyway, since the iDAC2 maxes out at DSD256.

 

My point was more about ruling out memory/buffering with the ultraRendu and A+

 

 

11 minutes ago, barrows said:

I have zero issues playing that with the Rendu via A+, using a fairly complex set of filter settings.  

 

Noted

 

12 minutes ago, barrows said:

Mac computers have the "Activity Monitor" where you can see how much processor power and how much memory is being used, you might want to take a look at that while playing in the modes you have problems with.  Here you will be able to get an idea if your Mac is up to what you are asking of it.

 

 

Noted. With Roon doing upsampling to DSD256 it's high CPU usage, like 150% or something. But the Roon processing rate is still 3.0x , so within the safe zone (> 1.3x), so it's never an issue.

 

This setup I'm describing is for my old man's (my dad's) system.  I bought him an ultraRendu and iDAC2. So the next time I visit him (next weekend) I'll check the CPU usage of A+ vs Roon with DSD up-sampling.

 

In the mean time , since I now know A+ is limited to DSD256 upsampling, it would be nice to know if I can 100% rule out the Rendu's memory/buffering ?  This is working fine for others, with no need to reduce the buffering in A+ settings?

 

 

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11 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Very simple network. No WiFi.

 

Gigabit modem/router > Netgear gigabit GS108 switch > ultraRendu

 

As mentioned the same chain has no issues with Roon doing the same thing - upsampling to DSD256 7th order.

 

But with A+ it even struggles with DSD128. So I wonder if it's a RAM thing, which is why I asked about the Rendu's RAM.

 

Roon doesn't buffer a track in memory like A+ does.

 

I not appropriate to compare Roon to A+ because these are two different protocols and resampling schemes. Have you tried bypassing the Netgear switch....just something to try. The Rendu's RAM is not an issue here.  

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54 minutes ago, jamesg11 said:

A+ has the 512 indicated - you then need a dac that can do 1024. DOP rule for mac?

Only if your DAC does not support native DSD on the micro/ultra. 

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7 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Only if your DAC does not support native DSD on the micro/ultra. 

Jesus, I am still trying to understand this, and it might be helpful for everyone to read a full explanation here.  I think you are suggesting that for DSD 512, via Audirvana+, that the following can work:

 

1.  A+ oversamples to DSD 512

 

2. A+ packs the DSD 512 in a DoP 1411.2 kHz PCM "container"

 

3. The stream is sent out of the Mac to the Rendu as 1411.2 PCM (DoP)

 

4. The Rendu is capable of receiving the 1411.2 PCM stream and unpacking it to DSD 512

 

5. The Rendu then sends native DSD 512 to the DAC via USB

 

Is the above accurate as to how DSD 512 could work with A+ and the Rendu with a native DSD 512 capable DAC?

 

If not I do not understand how it could work, as my understanding is that a Mac cannot handle any native DSD (only DoP which to the OS is of course PCM).

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3 hours ago, barrows said:

Jesus, I am still trying to understand this, and it might be helpful for everyone to read a full explanation here.  I think you are suggesting that for DSD 512, via Audirvana+, that the following can work:

 

1.  A+ oversamples to DSD 512

 

2. A+ packs the DSD 512 in a DoP 1411.2 kHz PCM "container"

 

3. The stream is sent out of the Mac to the Rendu as 1411.2 PCM (DoP)

 

4. The Rendu is capable of receiving the 1411.2 PCM stream and unpacking it to DSD 512

 

5. The Rendu then sends native DSD 512 to the DAC via USB

 

Is the above accurate as to how DSD 512 could work with A+ and the Rendu with a native DSD 512 capable DAC?

 

If not I do not understand how it could work, as my understanding is that a Mac cannot handle any native DSD (only DoP which to the OS is of course PCM).

I had a procedure yesterday and my doctor told me not to make any important decisions...so here goes:)

1. This should work with PCM to DSD conversion.

2. I don't think A+ can stream DSD as DoP and I'm not sure any DAC would support that rate via DoP.

3. Theoretically possible, but not a feature.

4. Theoretically possible, but not a feature.

5. This is supported on some DACs.

 

I think your confusion local playback with streaming. 

Screen Shot 2017-11-23 at 4.05.03 PM.png

Screen Shot 2017-11-23 at 4.23.26 PM.png

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So Jesus, you are suggesting that when streaming over Ethernet, Mac computers can output native DSD.  And you are saying that is what is happening when streaming DSD from A+, and that, if necessary, the Rendu will convert to DoP for DACs which require it?

Currently I oversample everything to DSD 128 via A+, and stream over Ethernet to the Signature Rendu SE.  I was under the impression that I was sending out DoP from the Mac, to the Rendu, but if what you seem to be suggesting is true, the Mac is actually outputting native DSD, and the Rendu is packing it as DoP.  I know my DAC is seeing DoP as it is not capable of decoding a native DSD USB data stream.

 

I also have not seen any DACs which claim to be capable of 1411.2 PCM (which of course would be necessary for DoP of DSD 512).  But I have had no problem sending DSD 256 via DoP to a DAC which can accept 705.6 PCM.

 

My confusion lies in my (apparently incorrect) assumption that Mac computers cannot output native DSD streams, as they are not compatible with .dsf, .dff, files through core audio, but perhaps A+ does enough to bypass core audio when outputting over Ethernet.

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Hi barrows and vortecjr,

 

this is a very interesting topic.

With Mac and Audirvana 3.1 is there a difference between DSD output via USB and Ethernet?

Please shed more light on this.

Thanks

 

Matt

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46 minutes ago, barrows said:

So Jesus, you are suggesting that when streaming over Ethernet, Mac computers can output native DSD.  And you are saying that is what is happening when streaming DSD from A+, and that, if necessary, the Rendu will convert to DoP for DACs which require it?

Currently I oversample everything to DSD 128 via A+, and stream over Ethernet to the Signature Rendu SE.  I was under the impression that I was sending out DoP from the Mac, to the Rendu, but if what you seem to be suggesting is true, the Mac is actually outputting native DSD, and the Rendu is packing it as DoP.  I know my DAC is seeing DoP as it is not capable of decoding a native DSD USB data stream.

 

I also have not seen any DACs which claim to be capable of 1411.2 PCM (which of course would be necessary for DoP of DSD 512).  But I have had no problem sending DSD 256 via DoP to a DAC which can accept 705.6 PCM.

 

My confusion lies in my (apparently incorrect) assumption that Mac computers cannot output native DSD streams, as they are not compatible with .dsf, .dff, files through core audio, but perhaps A+ does enough to bypass core audio when outputting over Ethernet.

You have native DSD unchecked in Settings / MPD-DLNA because your DAC's USB input does not support native DSD streaming via Linux. I have native DSD checked in Settings / MPD-DLNA because my DAC supports native DSD. Below is the output of Apps / DAC diagnostics showing 88.2 as the output which is correct for native DSD64 streaming.     

Screen Shot 2017-11-23 at 6.49.16 PM.png

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My understanding, fwiw, is that mac can only do DOP - hence, if I want dsd512,  I need a dac that is capable of ~x2 the pcm rate of my current iDSD micro which does 768 pcm & does dsd256 (only with roon! or mac direct to dac!). The iDSD micro will do dsd512 with windows & native dsd.

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5 minutes ago, jamesg11 said:

My understanding, fwiw, is that mac can only do DOP - hence, if I want dsd512,  I need a dac that is capable of ~x2 the pcm rate of my current iDSD micro which does 768 pcm & does dsd256 (only with roon! or mac direct to dac!). The iDSD micro will do dsd512 with windows & native dsd.

DoP only via local playback, but it has no issues sending native DSD to a micro/ultraRendu. Below is the output of Apps / DAC diagnostics showing 705.6 as the output which is correct for native DSD512 streaming. 

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16 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

Not with "native" DSD streaming. Those are DoP streaming rates.  

Yes, of course.  You mean to say that the DAC diagnostics reads PCM rates for DSD?  So instead of saying, for example instead of saying: 2.8224 MHz for DSD, the DAC diagnostic will read 88.2 kHz when outputting native DSD (1) to a DAC?

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17 hours ago, vortecjr said:

You have native DSD unchecked in Settings / MPD-DLNA because your DAC's USB input does not support native DSD streaming via Linux. I have native DSD checked in Settings / MPD-DLNA because my DAC supports native DSD. Below is the output of Apps / DAC diagnostics showing 88.2 as the output which is correct for native DSD64 streaming.     

Screen Shot 2017-11-23 at 6.49.16 PM.png

 

Hi Jesus,

 

What software are you using to get this "DAC Diagnostics"?

 

Thanks,

 

Roch

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9 minutes ago, barrows said:

Yes, of course.  You mean to say that the DAC diagnostics reads PCM rates for DSD?  So instead of saying, for example instead of saying: 2.8224 MHz for DSD, the DAC diagnostic will read 88.2 kHz when outputting native DSD (1) to a DAC?

Yes. Because it shoves 2.8224 MHz into a 88.2kHz / 32 bit PCM signal. 

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9 minutes ago, elcorso said:

 

Hi Jesus,

 

What software are you using to get this "DAC Diagnostics"?

 

Thanks,

 

Roch

It's part of Sonicorbiter that runs on every micro/ultraRendu.

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3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Not with "native" DSD streaming. Those are DoP streaming rates.  

 

3 hours ago, barrows said:

Yes, of course.  You mean to say that the DAC diagnostics reads PCM rates for DSD?  So instead of saying, for example instead of saying: 2.8224 MHz for DSD, the DAC diagnostic will read 88.2 kHz when outputting native DSD (1) to a DAC?

 

2 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Yes. Because it shoves 2.8224 MHz into a 88.2kHz / 32 bit PCM signal. 

Does this mean that it doesn’t matter if you run from mac os into the rendu, other than processing power for A+?

Well ... what is the take away here then ...?

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37 minutes ago, matthias said:

AFAIK, there is only one transfer method for DSD with Mac and Audirvana: DoP

 

http://dsd-guide.com/sites/default/files/white-papers/DoP_openStandard_1v1.pdf

 

Matt

Matt: the above link only concerns Mac's USB driver, we are discussing Ethernet streaming from the Mac here, not USB.  Initially it was my understanding that OS X and Core Audio do not handle DSD files, but from what Jesus appears to be saying, and from the link you posted, the limitation for Mac/OSX vis a vis DSD appears to only apply to the Mac USB output, and that native DSD is available via A+ and Ethernet output from Mac hardware.  At least this is what Jesus appears to be saying.

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1 hour ago, matthias said:

barrows,

maybe you are right, but there should be one person you knows exactly:

Damien from Audirvana (or Mansr?)

 

Matt

Agreed for sure!  I am a bit confused at this point, as I always thought Macs/A+ only output DSD via DoP...

 

@mansr, @damien78: can A+ output native DSD (without DoP) (when streaming over Ethernet), to a suitable renderer and DAC?

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