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10 grand - what set up would you recommend?


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8 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I would suggest a PS Audio DirectStream DAC with Network Bridge II installed which will act as a Roon Endpoint via Ethernet. Then buy a dedicated Roon server with the rest of your money. You don’t really want the server and endpoint in the same box anyway. 

 

Boom....no USB!

 

Thanks for the suggestion - I've read a lot of great reviews about the PS audio Bridge.  But I already have a 7000 USD built in DAC in the Diablo 300 that I am very happy with. When deciding to buy it I had a chance to run it side by side, in my own set up with my MSB Analog DAC w. the Power Base. A 13 000 USD combo. I could not tell the difference between the two. It is that good. So I will focus my dollars on the server :-).

Sonus Faber Amati Futura, Oppo 105 (transport), Gryphon Diablo 300 with DAC, Brinkmann Bardo, 10.0 tone arm, Lyra Etna, Isotek Sigmas Evo 3, Nordost Valhalla cables, Stillpoints Ultra and Mini.

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3 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

I have the PS Audio Directstream and the Bridge II network card and they are a VERY good DAC and endpoint combo.

 

I am a big fan of Paul McGowan, Ted Smith and the PSA team in general. Their ethos and the support they provide is truly excellent. I would heartily recommend this product to anyone. It should be an 'end-game' product especially when paired with a good server. 

 

The fact that they are continuing to release software updates that further improves this DAC is also phenomenal. For the time being it future proofs you and prevents you being left with an obsolete bit of kit.

 

Should tho is arbitrary in this game and what can I say. I wanted and still want 'more'.

 

I found I could squeeze a further improvement (on an already excellent SQ) by using (an over-complicated) setup that currently comprises the MicroRendu, the ISO Regen and the Singxer SU-1 (to feed the Directstream it's preferred format of I2S). The improvement is small but significant. That said I'm a bit fed up with the 'spaghetti' mix of power supplies and cables.

 

I'm also intrigued by the so called SOTM Trifecta but replacing one mess of cables with another is putting me off going down that road.

 

I'm therefore seriously considering the Innuos Zenith SE (as it's getting great praise) as a 'one-box' alternative to my current server>MR>IR>SU-1 to DAC digital pathway. It's not cheap but I'm hopeful that the combo of kick-ass server and kick-ass DAC finally quells the audiophilia nervosa and lets me relax a bit and enjoy the music.

 

For 10k ballpark I think you could do a lot worse than these two.

 

The new Antipodes DX Gen 3 is also intriguing but it's USB only for output whereas the Zenith SE has both USB and Ethernet output which is somewhat more flexible and future proof.

 

That said - it's not lost on me that the nature of this hobby being what it is that there's nothing to stop me from splashing a further 6k on the Zenith ZE and then still reinstating the IR, the SU-1 or the latest/greatest gizmo :P 

 

But then life would be dull if we could get the definitive 'this is the best possible kit' answer that Beer seems to be on such a quest to find!

 

Anyways - just my experience and thoughts based on my own journey.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

Thanks for your input...yea, i want everythng for nothing in a small little box (grin)...

I do believe we will have 95% of the SQ for relatively cheap soon...and i also understand and appreciate those with deep pockets that can afford to pay for that extra 5% and that keeps this hobby moving, and engineers engineering (wink)

 

On a side note, does the direct stream allow you to turn off hardware upsampling?  I know they sell a junior box that i looked at, but I don't believe you had the option of turning it off, but i have looked at and discounted so many, that I may be wrong.

 

Right now the LUMINA D2 seems to be my magic box in my price range....but hoping that similar box can include a LPS internal to the box (like the altair), for the same price point, along with an advanced clock (grin)....i think it will be soon...hopefully before i die, i can afford a quality piece of gear meeting all my checkmarks....

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This is a brilliant topic!

I've been wondering for over a year what solution to choose.

Ultimately I would like to have 4-5 5-10k streamers at home to test with my McIntosh set up.

Very hard to choose what's best.

Right now I hesitate between DCS NB and Aurender N10.

I need SPDIF, Roon is not a must.

Most important is SQ. If I can surpass the SQ of my current CD transport (whilst using the SPDIF input on that same CD player) with a streamer under 10k I'm buying it today!

 

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10 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

On a side note, does the direct stream allow you to turn off hardware upsampling

 

No offence intended here but it's comments like this that seem to be getting you into arguments on so many of your posts. You make this virtue of not wanting to understand/research stuff in favour of just peppering all these random questions at people.

 

In this instance you've neglected to take a moment to look at the Directstream because you clearly don't understand what it is. The 'Directstream' name comes from DSD (Direct Stream Digital) and the mechanism for how this DAC functions is to break PCM or DSD down and then upsample it to x20 DSD.

 

So sure, to disable hardware upsampling there is a power off button at the back :/

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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9 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

 

No offence intended here but it's comments like this that seem to be getting you into arguments on so many of your posts. You make this virtue of not wanting to understand/research stuff in favour of just peppering all these random questions at people.

 

In this instance you've neglected to take a moment to look at the Directstream because you clearly don't understand what it is. The 'Directstream' name comes from the from DSD (Direct Stream Digital) and the mechanism for how this DAC functions is to break PCM or DSD down and then upsample it to x20 DSD.

 

So sure, to disable hardware upsampling there is a power off button at the back :/

 

I said i did research it, and i don't recall, but i believed it was because you couldn't disable hardware upsampling...so i was correct.  I have looked into so many DACS and my memory is not so good, so my apologies.  I am sure it sounds wonderful, but it is out of my price point, and with dacs that i have heard at my price point, native dsd sounded better...of course i can't compare my testing at my price point to the directstream...i did not mean any offense...i was merely inquisitive...maybe your answer would be that you could turn off hardware upsampling on your model, and that you also prefer native dsd....that is where my head was at....wanting to know if you had similar experience..but obviously not. 

Not me, but I also know a lot of people like to do software upsampling with HQP.

Different people want different things..i was just commenting that is why if i had my choice, money no object, i would likely go with a different solution. 

Author of this thread is soliciting opinions, and i am sharing...that is all...i didn't mean to offend, but i think everyone feels offended when someone's views are different than their own. 

 

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Cool - no worries. 

 

But no you cannot turn off upsampling on the DS because upsampling to DSD is what it is all about.

 

FWIW I don't particularly care about DSD as a format and don't own a lot of native DSD. I bought this DAC based on the SQ (not DSD format) and it's excellent. But yes, it's a high price.

 

That Lumin D2 on your latest post also looks very nice.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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1 minute ago, BigAlMc said:

Cool - no worries. 

 

But no you cannot turn off upsampling on the DS because upsampling to DSD is what it is all about.

 

FWIW I don't particularly care about DSD as a format and don't own a lot of native DSD. I bought this DAC based on the SQ (not DSD format) and it's excellent. But yes, it's a high price.

 

That Lumin D2 on your latest post also looks very nice.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Thank you sir!

That is exactly my point....different strokes for different folks.....i rarely listen to anything but native DSD any more....even if it is the same 1000 tracks over and over (grin). 

 

here's a favorite i have in dsd...sounds great in pcm too....love sharing it...

 

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33 minutes ago, thyname said:

Is there a R2R DAC (like Holo or Metrum or Denafrips) with Built in Streamer?

a quick google brings up this (but it has amp too), but i am certain that i have found a different streamer dac w/r2r...i will continue to look, i know i considered one...but likely price crossed it off my list....

 

http://www.remusic.it/EN/Introducing-Acuhorn-RATE-integrated-amp-and-R2R-streamer-a06f5300

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Just now, thyname said:

Is there a R2R DAC (like Holo or Metrum or Denafrips) with Built in Streamer?

Totaldac makes them.  They have their own streamer which for some dAC models they will integrate into the same box with the DAC. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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7 minutes ago, thyname said:

Can someone (like @The Computer Audiophile) chime in on the merits (or lack thereof) of an Ethernet DAC / Streamer all-in-one vs. separates (I.e. Spaghetti solution)?

Like pretty much all things in audio, there isn't one true answer. 

Depends on the implementation. You can bet a manufacturer like PS Audio, Simaudio, or Totaldac are going to make sure that the all in one isn't a compromise. It could even be better than separates if done properly. 

First, you need a good, low noise renderer. 

But you also have to go to quite a bit of trouble, like making sure the renderer section is isolated in terms of electronic noise from the other sections.  Some all in ones aren't going to do all those kind of things, and will be a compromise in SQ. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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45 minutes ago, thyname said:

Can someone (like @The Computer Audiophile) chime in on the merits (or lack thereof) of an Ethernet DAC / Streamer all-in-one vs. separates (I.e. Spaghetti solution)?

 

And even single box solution can be flexible (e.g. modular)

I know Mcintosh latest integrated MA5300 upgraded their MA5200 to a modular approach at the digital interface, and rumor has it a D2 digital module with improved clock and noise suppression circuitry is in the works....hopefully they will add an ethernet port to it too...then I KNOW which direction i would be going.

 

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My gut says an 6 box set up with NUC, NAA and USB isolator, each with upgraded power supply, will sound on par with a top of the line one box solution. Like Aurender N10, Antipodes DX or Zenith SE.  

You will most likely get great musical experiences from each and every one of them. In my case it comes down to system matching and ability to upgrade. 

The strategy that has worked best for me with in hifi, is to enter the game on a fairly high level. Other wise I am back on the market searching after the first "honeymoon weeks". And each time you sell - you loose. So I rather aim high and be happy for a while longer. 

Sonus Faber Amati Futura, Oppo 105 (transport), Gryphon Diablo 300 with DAC, Brinkmann Bardo, 10.0 tone arm, Lyra Etna, Isotek Sigmas Evo 3, Nordost Valhalla cables, Stillpoints Ultra and Mini.

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Separates are better performers. Possibly, cutting out DC-DC converters, ground plane segregation, EMI/RFI considerations, etc, outweighs shorter signal paths and closer matching in an integrated setup.

 

However, that wisdom gets turned on its head for PC audio where its observed that a single box solution performs better than a multi-box source.

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2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Separates are better performers. Possibly, cutting out DC-DC converters, ground plane segregation, EMI/RFI considerations, etc, outweighs shorter signal paths and closer matching in an integrated setup.

 

However, that wisdom gets turned on its head for PC audio where its observed that a single box solution performs better than a multi-box source.

 

Can you explain this a bit more? When I say "all-in-one", it is only DAC / Streamer combo. No amplification. Amplification will still be "separate".

 

Basically, my meaning of "all in one" is a DAC with a Streamer built in, and with Ethernet input for streaming, thus avoiding any USB connection in the path.

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The DAC is the most sensitive to noise and is best kept well clear from hard drives, CPU (Streamer))etc. It will also benefit from its own power supply, less noise, increased sound quality, clarity dynamics effortlessness a silent background.

Hard drives again benefit from their own power supply and the has been similar improvements in separating the server from the control PC, again another power supply and clear of the noise generated from the hard disks or ssd"s.

For example look at Pink Fauns Systems the ultimate is 2 box plus DAC. 

You should be aiming for a separate DAC plus a one box streamer or 2 box server/control for optimum sound quality with your budget.

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6 hours ago, thyname said:

 

Nothing new here. All obvious.

 

I was asking more in terms of SQ

 

as OP stated...the SQ is dependent on the engineering of the solution, regardless of 1 box or 10 boxes.

 

With multiple boxes, you have many interconnects, which also are subjective....eliminate the need for subjective interconnects and unneeded interfaces.  You will get subjective responses about noise internal to the unit, but in my belief this noise should be able to be managed with a good design....(e.g. good ps, shielding, clocking, filtering, etc...)

 

However with multiple boxes, you can get best in class of each box, so one should be able to put together best in class with multiple boxes to obtain the best SQ.....but then you have to debate what is best in class for each box, and how well they work together.

 

I personally believe a one box solution can be engineered to compete with any multiple box solution.

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2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I personally believe a one box solution can be engineered to compete with any multiple box solution.

 

Agree. Thats what I found when evaluating amps and fell under the spell of the Diablo 300.

I would not call this beast a compromise. 

And now I hope to make the same discovery within the music server realm :-)

Sonus Faber Amati Futura, Oppo 105 (transport), Gryphon Diablo 300 with DAC, Brinkmann Bardo, 10.0 tone arm, Lyra Etna, Isotek Sigmas Evo 3, Nordost Valhalla cables, Stillpoints Ultra and Mini.

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2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I personally believe a one box solution can be engineered to compete with any multiple box solution.

Well let's make one that will compete, how about two multi rail power suppllies and their heatsinks, now they seems to be taking up a lot of space. How about the DAC, need space for that, lets provide some isolation, encasement seems the best, now we have three boxes within our 'box'. Now for the motherboard, storage,Memory, Network, ...It sounds brilliant but  I'ts massive wife hates it in the living room. Then lets compromise take out one transformer maybe remove some of those big caps replace them with IC's etc... We still need cables to connect our bits together within our box, they measure similarly as do most of the components so lets do some listening... Well its now becoming a bit subjective also.

It still sounds good but not quite as good as the giant box., so let's split up our giant box into three manageable smaller boxes and sell it for big money and our single box for a bit less, both systems will please many provided their engineered correctly, no huge importance wether one, two or three boxes.

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18 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Well let's make one that will compete, how about two multi rail power suppllies and their heatsinks,

 

one properly designed ps will be more than sufficient to drive an sd card, network intfc and dac....and the PS can be external if so desired.

 

Doesn't require a lot of juice to power a network intfc and dac....

 

don't need ssd (since network storage is desired here....e.g. streaming...), but sd card would be nice option.

 

Several quality one box solutions already exist...just need a little more tweaking...

 

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17 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

one properly designed ps will be more than sufficient to drive an sd card, network intfc and dac....and the PS can be external if so desired.

Yes but it still will be a compromise. The DAC Only will benefit from 2 seperate power supplies one for the digital and one for the analogue circuits, then you have the clock / reclocking board, buffer board, etc thats three or four supplies already, quite a lot of' 'juice'.

We have not touched the other components yet! One PS will work but wont sound as good.

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3 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Yes but it still will be a compromise. The DAC Only will benefit from 2 seperate power supplies one for the digital and one for the analogue circuits, then you have the clock / reclocking board, buffer board, etc thats three or four supplies already, quite a lot of' 'juice'.

We have not touched the other components yet! So one PS is a compromise.

 

If one PS is enough for a DAC, then adding a ps for a low power consuming network intfc should not be needed...again, they already exist.

 

Are there dacs that use 2ps and offer increased SQ based on 2 ps?

Just asking...

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