Another major look at MQA by another pro.

[PeterSt]

Quote

So this very guy has lost me forever and he is the testimonial of a plane ignorant himself.

 

My English ...

 

Still, over here we have this gag "I'm not crazy, I'm not crazy, I'm a plane !".

 

 

So I meant "plain" there. But maybe plane is fine too.

[rickca]

19 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Still, over here we have this gag "I'm not crazy, I'm not crazy, I'm a plane !".

I don't get it, but I really liked the animation.

[ctsooner]

On 8/12/2017 at 5:53 PM, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hi Ricka,

 

I just read the link you posted from CTSooner and I also found it confusing. The Ayre QX-5 uses a ConversDigital Ethernet module, similar to what is optionally available in the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC  Bridge II (although with an Ayre-designed support card using special low-phase-noise clocks and ultra-low-noise power supplies). As announced recently by PS Audio, ConversDigital has supplied full hardware MQA decoding, but only on the Ethernet input. It is clearly possible to do the same with the Ayre, but this is not currently the case and certainly was not as of the March posting date by CTSooner.

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks for clearing things up for all of us. I didn't mean to confuse anyone.  I got a text from Alex who told me that it was ok to post what I did.  He basically told me how you guys would go about doing MQA.  I'm sure he told the Cimarra dealer the same thing as he posted also.  

 

Also, whoever shared the info on the isolators, thanks.  I haven't tried them and probably won't as I already have a couple of LPS's to do an optical isolation of my ethernet into my audio system.  It just makes the most sense to me.

[Charles Hansen]

11 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Thanks for clearing things up for all of us. I didn't mean to confuse anyone.  I got a text from Alex who told me that it was ok to post what I did.  He basically told me how you guys would go about doing MQA.  I'm sure he told the Cimarra dealer the same thing as he posted also.

 

Hi CT,

 

That makes sense. At the time you made your post, Alex was preparing for a new job with AudioQuest. He likely had his hands full and made some mistakes. At that time nobody knew how to do MQA via the ConversDigital module. It's all pretty arbitrary and depends on MQA. They had shocked everybody by announcing software decoding of half the process just two months earlier. It took another four or five months for PS Audio to implement it with the ConversDigital module, and it ended up doing both parts somehow. Sorry for the confusion. Our bad.

 

Best,

Charles Hansen

[ctsooner]

Thanks for responding Charles.  It was a cluster. I  remember him sharing and then clarifying.  He was just as excited as the rest of us were, lol.  I never bothered to ask Alex which Melco server you guys are using?   I assume it's the N1ZH for the US?  I know that he was using Roon, but Melco can't do Roon.  Do you guys have ethernet to have the QX5 stream Tidal and then have the Melco hooked via USB to the QX5?  Thanks.

[Charles Hansen]

3 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Thanks for responding Charles.  It was a cluster. I  remember him sharing and then clarifying.  He was just as excited as the rest of us were, lol.  I never bothered to ask Alex which Melco server you guys are using?   I assume it's the N1ZH for the US?  I know that he was using Roon, but Melco can't do Roon.  Do you guys have ethernet to have the QX5 stream Tidal and then have the Melco hooked via USB to the QX5?  Thanks.

 

I'm not sure why Alex was so excited about MQA. I studied all of the literature there when it first came out and came up with with several conclusions:

 

1) Any reduction in file size is strictly due to lossy techniques. Specifically 24-bit audio is truncated to around 17 bits (not exact due to noise shaping). This results in an audible loss of resolution in some tracks. The easiest to hear is in The Doors "Riders on the Storm" where Jim Morrison's "whisper" vocal overdub is difficult to hear compared with the original 96/24 high-res track. The other thing is that all audio above 48kHz is lost - the literature claims lossy compression ("encapsulation") but measurements have shown all content above 48kHz is actually non-musically related aliasing artifacts.

 

2) Any sonic changes (for better or worse) are simply the result of using different digital filters. This is helpful to companies that don't know how to build their own digital filter, but limits the performance of those companies that do build their own. And now it turns out that many of the differences in MQA files are due to the use of different masters.

 

3) MQA includes a high-security encryption algorithm to allow the use of DRM, despite Bob Stuart's protestations to the opposite.

 

All of this can be found  in multiple threads here on CA:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30572-mqa-technical-analysis/?page=20

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30381-mqa-is-vaporware/?page=118

and of course this thread. I have picked starting points in the other two threads that contain pertinent technical information.

 

The Ayre factory is using the Melco N1A with spinning hard drives. The SSDs cannot be sold in the US due to a patent overlap with Toshiba. At home I have the N1ZH with the improved power supplies and improved spinning hard drives. It is slightly better than the N1A, but not dramatically so. Now there is a second generation of models, which I've not heard. And yes, Roon does not work with the Melco, which is unfortunate.

 

For streaming one needs to connect the Ethernet cable (wireless is OK for control, but doesn't sound as good for audio data). The Ethernet input supports Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify Connect, and Deezer, as well as NAS drives and any other computers with music storage on your LAN, and also functions as a Roon Endpoint.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

 

[ctsooner]

Thanks so much. It helps a lot.  Very interesting on MQA and not surprising.  I wish more of your dealers carried the Melco units, lol.  I was told that there is a Roon work around if you put your computer on the LAN and it works with Melco or even Aurender.  Not sure as I'm like many others and trying to learn about networks etc...  Looks like I'm just going to switch to Comcast, get a good router and modem, set up a switch with the optical conversion using a dedicated LPS on the conversion side and an Audioquest Diamond ethernet cable into the QX5/20 and control it all through the M Control app.  That's the plan, lol....

[foodfiend]

6 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

The SSDs cannot be sold in the US due to a patent overlap with Toshiba.

Would that happen to be US 9553483 B2 (for Toshiba) and JP2012016139A and CN102315762A (for Buffalo/Melco)?

[Charles Hansen]

3 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Thanks so much. It helps a lot.  Very interesting on MQA and not surprising.  I wish more of your dealers carried the Melco units, lol.  I was told that there is a Roon work around if you put your computer on the LAN and it works with Melco or even Aurender.  Not sure as I'm like many others and trying to learn about networks etc...  Looks like I'm just going to switch to Comcast, get a good router and modem, set up a switch with the optical conversion using a dedicated LPS on the conversion side and an Audioquest Diamond ethernet cable into the QX5/20 and control it all through the M Control app.  That's the plan, lol....

 

Yes, here we are 10 years later and computer audio is still in flux!  I'm very happy with the Melco, but I don't listen to streaming. A lot of music lovers I know use Spotify (even MP3 sounds pretty good on a good DAC) for streaming to discover new music and then purchase the disc or download for permanent ownership. It all depends on the user and what they are comfortable with. Clearly there is no right or wrong answer.

 

Keeping noise out of the system is paramount for best sound quality, whether you are using the USB or Ethernet inputs or both. Optical is outstanding in this regard, especially if one can get very low-noise linear power supplies - at least at the audio end. Good luck with your system!

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

[Charles Hansen]

1 hour ago, foodfiend said:

Would that happen to be US 9553483 B2 (for Toshiba) and JP2012016139A and CN102315762A (for Buffalo/Melco)?

 

Sorry I can't be of any help - I'm just passing on information that was given to me by a trust-worthy source. It would seem to fit at first glance, because my understanding is the territorial restriction for the Melco SSDs is limited to the US.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[ctsooner]

Thanks so much for the reply.  I'm hoping and praying the Wyred 4 Sound LPS's I have for the audio end are up to the task.  After reading your replies for the last few days, I'm getting much clarity in what I'm going to do and how I will implement it all.  Having MS, I can no longer get up to change records (still by FAR my favorite).  Just sold my Basis tt and phono stage this week.  I also can't keep getting up to change CD's , although I do still on occasion.  I want to move everything over to a NAS or internal HD, but I find myself streaming Tidal (wifi for now) since I got the QX5/20.  I have had a long ethernet wire to hear the difference and YES, wifi isn't nearly as good in any respect in my system and in my room.  

 

I know many other QX5 owners I've spoken with or met with feel the same way.  Are you able to share if Ayre is or will work on their own server?  That's what many of us would die to own.  A Roon server that mates perfectly to the QX5/20...

[crenca]

On 8/9/2017 at 0:26 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

DO you have a source for this info? Very interesting and strange if true.

 

Sorry, been AFK for a few days.  No proof except their behavior/products

[The Computer Audiophile]

No worries.

[NordicBob]

Hi Charles,

 

I have a QX-5 hooked up to an Aurender N10 via USB.  I just read John Atkinson's Stereophile review that said that Roon with Ethernet is sonically better than USB. So you at Ayre find Ethernet with streaming a better solution to get  the best sound from the QX-5?  Sorry if this thread is not the best place to post my question, but I wish to get the best sound from the QX-5 and wonder if installing Ethernet is the way to go? Thanks.  

[Charles Hansen]

12 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Thanks so much for the reply.  I'm hoping and praying the Wyred 4 Sound LPS's I have for the audio end are up to the task.  After reading your replies for the last few days, I'm getting much clarity in what I'm going to do and how I will implement it all.  Having MS, I can no longer get up to change records (still by FAR my favorite).  Just sold my Basis tt and phono stage this week.  I also can't keep getting up to change CD's , although I do still on occasion.  I want to move everything over to a NAS or internal HD, but I find myself streaming Tidal (wifi for now) since I got the QX5/20.  I have had a long ethernet wire to hear the difference and YES, wifi isn't nearly as good in any respect in my system and in my room.  

 

I know many other QX5 owners I've spoken with or met with feel the same way.  Are you able to share if Ayre is or will work on their own server?  That's what many of us would die to own.  A Roon server that mates perfectly to the QX5/20...

 

Hi CT,

 

Sorry to hear about your MS. There is one common alternative therapy that works so well that in the UK they have set up co-ops throughout the country to deal with this. It is called "HBOT" for Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy. It is an amazing technology that can cure things like Lyme's disease, and is by far the best currently available treatment for stroke and TBI (traumatic brain injury). In those cases one needs treatments 5 days a week, but with MS they have found that just one treatment per week will completely halt progression of the disease (no sign of regression, unfortunately).

 

In the US, being controlled by big pharma and health insurance companies, it is very hard to find facilities to treat you. When you do the typical treatment will take 90 minutes (including time to change your clothing), plus round-trip travel time. Cost normally vary between $100 and $150 per session. In the UK the co-op has set up multi-person chambers that hold a dozen or so patients at once. They have scheduled treatment times and my understanding is that the cost is only around $15 per patient.

 

There is a great clinic near Boulder with a lot of good information on their website: http://rockymountainhbot.com/

Read the stuff there and then call them to see if they can recommend a provider in your area. You can also do a lot of research online about the UK-based facilities: https://www.facebook.com/MSSociety/posts/10153259075538664

 

As far as a server, there will be a product launch this fall/winter (not from Ayre) that should meet your needs perfectly.

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

[Charles Hansen]

10 hours ago, NordicBob said:

Hi Charles,

 

I have a QX-5 hooked up to an Aurender N10 via USB.  I just read John Atkinson's Stereophile review that said that Roon with Ethernet is sonically better than USB. So you at Ayre find Ethernet with streaming a better solution to get  the best sound from the QX-5?  Sorry if this thread is not the best place to post my question, but I wish to get the best sound from the QX-5 and wonder if installing Ethernet is the way to go? Thanks.  

 

As far as I can tell, it's really going to depend on the associated equipment. Here is the deal - computer audio requires a computer.

 

As we all know from reading the forums here, not all computers sound the same. Whatever computer JA was using to run the USB input did not sound as good as the computer built into the QX-5 Twenty to run the Ethernet input. As noted in another post, at the Ayre factory there is a Melco server (with a Linux computer inside) running into the USB input and it sounds much better than any other computer (Mac or Windows) than I have ever heard. When we briefly tried the Ethernet connection from the Melco to the QX-5 Twenty, it didn't sound as good as the USB connection - but this could be due to any one of a hundred external variables, the chief one being that the LAN at work ties 20+ computers to the local server and the internet router, all hooked up with many hundreds (if not thousands) of feet of ordinary wire that has been in the building for 30+ years, plus no special routers, power supplies, et cetera.

 

The best way to bypass this is to simply connect a disc transport to one of the S/PDIF-based inputs (especially with TosLink to completely isolate any noise from the source. But then you no longer have computer audio.

 

I honestly don't know if one computer input has sonic advantages in general, nor do I know if one computer input has a higher performance limit when every single variable in the outboard computer system is completely tricked out to the max.

 

I think the main thing is likely to be your physical set up. If you have a home office and work on your computer all day, you can easily connect to it via USB. Or with a wired network and two ports (or a switch) you can also connect to it via Ethernet. On the other hand if you have your system in the listening room and all your equipment is in a rack, it is going to be a pain in the neck to try to use USB. The cable length is limited to 3 meters (10') and you will need a laptop near your listening location to control and run things.

 

A Melco can help here as it will fit on the rack and can be controlled with any device on the network. Wi-Fi doesn't seem to degrade the sound when just used for control signals, although the long-term health studies do not appear to be positive. I use a tablet with a USB-to-Ethernet adapter to control my Melco. But Roon doesn't support Melco (at least at this time), so it's not a great solution for Roon fans.

 

One solution for Roon fans might be to get one of the NAS drives that has been especially designed to support Roon, and then control it with one of Roon's many control point apps. (The Roon core requires a computer running a 64-bit OS.)

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[ctsooner]

Charles, thanks so much for that information.  I've heard about it, but haven't gone there yet.  Yes, I have primary progressive MS.  I don't want to bore the folks on this thread with MS, but Im' set to try a new infusion twice a year that has been highly successful in preventing further damage.  I'd rather do the chamber, but there isn't one near me yet.  I am highly familiar with the Rocky Mountain MS Center and they do great things also.

 

You mention a new server that will be launched.  I assume that you can't mention the name of said server??? lol...thanks so much

[Ultrarunner]

I'm pretty happy with my server.  I had it built by Andrew of Small Green Computer, on the advice of Gordon Rankin.  It's Linux based, runs Roon Server and just about any other music server software such as DLNA, MPD and LMS.  One can also add Plex and play video as well.  I had it made with 2 TB SSD and power the box with an Uptone JS-2 linear power supply.

[NordicBob]

Hi Charles,

 

Thank you so much for the  reply with a wealth of information which is most helpful.  I take reviews with a grain of salt, but after reading the Stereophile review on the QX-5, it got me thinking about my system and to ask for your input regarding servers and computer-based audio.

 

 I and others who have heard my system like it, or at least they've given me complements on its sound. Maybe it's my Ayre amplification along with my QX-5 that keeps the music on such high emotional level for me?  

 

I'll be most interested to see how  MQA pans out as well as Ayre's upcoming music server.   As always, Ayre comes out with incredible sounding products.  

 

@ctsooner:  MS has affected so many of my family members. I wish the best for you.   I just went though major back surgery so I've had to give up spinning disks for the foreseeable future and therefore computer-based audio has become ever more important to me. I've learned a lot from reading your posts on this forum as well as Audio Aficionado about your experiences with Ayre products including the QX-5. Thanks. 

 

Bob

 

 

[ctsooner]

Bob, sorry to hear about your family members.  It's not easy as it's been a total life change, but it's a life sentence and not a death sentence, so it's all for the best.  More time for me to help others.  I'm a retired Navy Commander who drove ships (USS Kitty Hawk carrier is the most famous) and then was a retained Executive Recruiter for many years before the MS/Transverse Myelitis over 11 years ago.  Many deal with much more than I do, so I'm blessed that way.  

 

I have a Steve Nugent made Mac Mini that he used in all his shows and still does I believe.  with the Paul Hynes PSU, it really is the best computer based server I've ever heard, but it's not easy for me as I need to use the TV to control it etc...  I do feel that the non computer based servers sound better than any computer based ones.  My buddy, Matt (he has the longest running Audiogon thread going on 'Best Dac's for redbook) has a very high end system and he's had nearly every computer based server in, but none so far has come close to the Aurender N10. He hasn't has the Melco N1ZH/mk 2 in yet. I'll do what I can to help him get one in for review.  He also hasn't had the QX5 in yet. I"m trying to get down to NJ with mine for him to audition.  He just got a Davinci mk 2 yesterday. For 40k plus it better be killer, but I have a feeling my QX5/20 will be much closer than most think.  I've had so many DAC's in the house or I've brought the QX5 to friends houses or stores and honestly, for me, it's bested the DCS DACS (I"ve always found them a bit dry for MY tastes) and some other ones that cost twice the price.  I need to hear it against the TotalDAc again, but again, that's twice the cost and the last time I heard them side by side, the difference was minimal and I"m not sure the QX5 wasn't better.  I was in a few aspects.  

 

I think that servers are about 10 years behind the DAC's IRT advancements.  That's why I haven't and won't go out and get one yet.  Charles just said there seems to be one coming out in the next few months that will be Roon core and have everything else I'm looking for.  He said it wasn't Ayre if I read correctly. Not sure of how much it will be or who will come out with it.  Maybe it will be under the Codex brand name.  I'd love an SX5/20, lol.  That way the cabinets can even match (yes, I like things to look good also).  Sorry to drone on, but I have so many questions and I know I'm not the only one who needs cliff notes, lol.

[Charles Hansen]

Hello All,

 

Here is a press release from the German magazine Stereo, on the forthcoming Roon server lineup. I think the official US announcement will come at CEDIA:

 

Roon Server also supports
Sonos, Airplay & Co.
First photos – or at least renderings
– have reached us from Roon
Labs of the planned „Nucleus“ music
server, along with more details of
features. It will be able to feed not
just „Roon-ready“ network players
(now more than 60 partner brands),
but also Sonos, Devialet AIR,
Meridian and Squeezebox systems,
as well as AirPlay-ready devices.
Alternatively, you can connect a USB
DAC directly to the Nucleus server,
which is then controlled from the
Roon app for iOS or Android, Windows PCs or Macs. The „Nucleus“ model (around
US$1200) can manage music libraries up to 12,000 albums, and serve multiroom systems
of up to five zones, while the „Nucleus +“ (around $2000) will handle even larger collec-
tions and more zones, providing additional DSP features such as upsampling, etc. Both
models have ribbed cases for fanless operation, and 2 USB 3.0 ports and a Thunderbolt
3 socket. There’s also a slot for a 2.5in internal hard drive or SSD (not included in the
price), or the music can be stored on external USB devices or NAS units. Thanks to the
cooling rib housing, both models come without fans.

 

From: https://stereo-magazine.com/index.php?eID=dumpFile&t=f&f=5019&token=5c0b0c391c082b189b3d9722e41a851155b358da&download=

 

on page 23.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[mcgillroy]

Thx Charles - looks like the German audio press is going all in on the pretense of giving space for controversy.

 

I especially like Stuarts "MQA goes beyond the loss-free concepts to deliver the highest quality."

 

The coming days are going to be a shit-show par excellence

 

[Charles Hansen]

2 hours ago, mcgillroy said:

Thx Charles - looks like the German audio press is going all in on the pretense of giving space for controversy.

 

I especially like Stuarts "MQA goes beyond the loss-free concepts to deliver the highest quality."

 

The coming days are going to be a shit-show par excellence

 

 

Hi McGillroy,

 

I'm not sure about Stereo magazine. Their "reporting" on MQA wasn't the puff pieces we see in the US (some of which are paid for by MQA), but they went pretty easy on Bob Stuart. It wasn't true journalism but instead what passes for "journalism" these days. With true journalism a reporter will investigate, reach a conclusion, and present the story to the public. Think of Woodward and Bernstein reporting on Watergate. What Stereo did was like modern, corporate-owned news does. They find people on both sides of an issue, let them spout whatever they want, then tell the readers, "We can't figure it out, so you decide for yourselves."

 

I'll tell you one thing though - if they had chosen Juergen Reis of MBL to be on the "anti-MQA" side, Bob Stuart would be nothing but a smoldering pile of humiliation and there would have been no questions left in the reader's mind about MQA.

 

Best,

Charles Hansen

[rickca]

6 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

It wasn't true journalism but instead what passes for "journalism" these days.

Most of audio journalism I see today is just reporting what vendors say.  It isn't even critical, never mind investigative.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

1 hour ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hi McGillroy,

 

I'm not sure about Stereo magazine. Their "reporting" on MQA wasn't the puff pieces we see in the US (some of which are paid for by MQA), but they went pretty easy on Bob Stuart. It wasn't true journalism but instead what passes for "journalism" these days. With true journalism a reporter will investigate, reach a conclusion, and present the story to the public. Think of Woodward and Bernstein reporting on Watergate. What Stereo did was like modern, corporate-owned news does. They find people on both sides of an issue, let them spout whatever they want, then tell the readers, "We can't figure it out, so you decide for yourselves."

 

I'll tell you one thing though - if they had chosen Juergen Reis of MBL to be on the "anti-MQA" side, Bob Stuart would be nothing but a smoldering pile of humiliation and there would have been no questions left in the reader's mind about MQA.

 

Best,

Charles Hansen

Charles - 

 

Respectfully,

 

1. What evidence do you have that some "puff" pieces in ostensibly independent journals were paid for by MQA?

 

2. Has Reis published his "smoldering" critigue" anywhere that we can actually see?

 

I have no malice or agenda.  I am just as skeptical, myself, of the "fors" as I am of the "agins". I just want as much truthful information as I can get, which is not easy.