More Disruptive Schiit (Vidar)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Speed Racer said:

It doesn't make sense to send them back in to be checked and not include at least one problematic cable. You are planning on having them send you back another pair, right?

 

Schiit asked what cables i was using. They didn't ask me to send them cables yet. I'll defer to them what they need in order to adequately test. 

 

I believe I'll get the same pair back ASAP.

[Speed Racer]

If you are going to get them back right away, why not send in a cable? It seems like poor troubleshooting to not ask for/send the cable(s). It's not these are cables Schiit has just lying around in the shop....

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Speed Racer said:

If you are going to get them back right away, why not send in a cable? It seems like poor troubleshooting to not ask for/send the cable(s).

 

Schiit can troubleshoot better than I can, as it's their product. If they want cables, I will send them cables. Perhaps they have cables already. I don't want to speculate. They are pretty competent. 

[Hoang Nam]

9 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Schiit can troubleshoot better than I can, as it's their product. If they want cables, I will send them cables. Perhaps they have cables already. I don't want to speculate. They are pretty competent. 

Looking forward for the shooting after Schiit send you back the amps

[arcman]

Wow I was considering the Vidar as a temporary main amp, then later as a bedroom amp. I will look elsewhere. I know early products can have flaws....however...speaker cable length issues for NORMAL lengths tells me to avoid. Were these review units or units you purchased?

[The Computer Audiophile]

I highly recommend holding off on drawing any conclusions from my limited experience. 

 

The amps will go back to Schiit today for examination. I look forward to getting them back and thoroughly testing them for publication.

[lmitche]

On 8/11/2017 at 4:39 AM, unbalanced output said:

@Speed Racer thanks, your cable has 3 times the capacitance but half the inductance of Nac A5. That makes sense but shows how length alone doesn't tell you much. @esldude we're not sure if the Vidar needs capacitance or inductance. It is possible that @The Computer Audiophile tried to hook up a cable with low inductance since these cables seem to be quite popular today. Speed Racer's cable has a fairly high capacitance. I have no idea about adding a cap to the cable, 100pF should give more than sufficient capacitance (what if if inductance is missing?).

 

Just plugging in a longer cable (as he did and worked) should be sufficient according to my rudimentary understanding of zobel circuits. 

Naim cables have high inductance as there are no inductors on the output of the amplifier.  The Naca 5 cable is the inductor by design. That's why minimum cable lengths are so important.

[bgoc]

Chris

I was wondering if you tried using just 1 amp in stereo, with single ended inputs, and if so did the problem still exist.

 

          Thanks Barry

[The Computer Audiophile]

I tried one amp with zero inputs, no xlr or RCA, and still had the issue. 

[schiit]

Hey all,

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what's happening with Chris' amps when we get them back. Or we can just swap them and see if that solves the problem, but I'd rather see if there's a failure involved.

 

To answer some questions, Vidar has a full Zobel network on the output (both series LR and shunt CR), so it's designed for reactive loads. It's also tested for stability into reactive loads, including 2uF/ 2 ohms (to shutdown) and 2uF/ 8 ohms (to clipping, in both stereo and mono modes), so it's not excited by typical "problematic" speaker loads. 

 

Also, the microprocessor management on Vidar is significantly different (and simpler) than Ragnarok, which allows sine-wave testing without de-biasing the output. Bias is set conventionally. So it's unlikely a factor in whatever is happening here. We'll see, though, when the amps come back.

 

(And, Chris, I didn't want to impose on you to send those blindingly expensive speaker cables out to us, but if you want, just contact Amy and we'll get you a shipper so we can get them from you and back to you in short order.)

 

All the best,

 

Jason Stoddard

Co-Founder, Schiit Audio

[rando]

@schiit just got real.

[joelha]

3 hours ago, schiit said:

Hey all,

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what's happening with Chris' amps when we get them back. Or we can just swap them and see if that solves the problem, but I'd rather see if there's a failure involved.

 

To answer some questions, Vidar has a full Zobel network on the output (both series LR and shunt CR), so it's designed for reactive loads. It's also tested for stability into reactive loads, including 2uF/ 2 ohms (to shutdown) and 2uF/ 8 ohms (to clipping, in both stereo and mono modes), so it's not excited by typical "problematic" speaker loads. 

 

Also, the microprocessor management on Vidar is significantly different (and simpler) than Ragnarok, which allows sine-wave testing without de-biasing the output. Bias is set conventionally. So it's unlikely a factor in whatever is happening here. We'll see, though, when the amps come back.

 

(And, Chris, I didn't want to impose on you to send those blindingly expensive speaker cables out to us, but if you want, just contact Amy and we'll get you a shipper so we can get them from you and back to you in short order.)

 

All the best,

 

Jason Stoddard

Co-Founder, Schiit Audio

Jason,

 

It's good of you to post to all of us here.

 

Since you have, would you be good enough to state the continuous output of the Vidars as mono blocks into 4 ohms?

 

Those of us with 4 ohm speakers (ok, maybe just me) would like to know.

 

Thanks.

 

Joel

[schiit]

23 minutes ago, joelha said:

Jason,

 

It's good of you to post to all of us here.

 

Since you have, would you be good enough to state the continuous output of the Vidars as mono blocks into 4 ohms?

 

Those of us with 4 ohm speakers (ok, maybe just me) would like to know.

 

Thanks.

 

Joel

 

We don't rate mono into 4 ohms, since it will hit the protection before clipping. Also, if you run high output into 4 ohms mono for long periods of time, you may run into thermal protection as well. The amp is effectively seeing a 2 ohm load in that case.

 

Now, you may never run into the current shutdown or the thermal shutdown (I don't, on Eminent Technology LFT-VIs, which are like 83dB efficient), but also, you might. We prefer to err on the side of under-promising.

 

Also, for most 4 ohm speakers, there's a simple solution: use just one Vidar. It's really fairly underrated in terms of power output, and its fine for most inefficient speakers (it works fine with our Magneplanar 1.7s, for example--and you can contact Magnepan for their own opinion--they heard Vidar on their .7s at the recent LA show and commented favorably.)

 

And, if you want more detail than any sane person would want on the nuts and bolts behind Vidar, I can refer you to the two chapters in the Schiit Happened book on it:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-926#post_12997153

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-1360#post-13508638

 

Hopefully this is permissible. Chris, please feel free to remove these links if this isn't cool, and I'll refrain in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

No worries about the links. I'm not a protectionist :~)

[unbalanced output]

Big thanks to Chris and 'Mr. Schiit' for the honest and transparent way that you're handling this - that is surely worth several credibility points. I'm curious to see the conclusions on that amp.

[rlow]

39 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

Big thanks to Chris and 'Mr. Schiit' for the honest and transparent way that you're handling this - that is surely worth several credibility points. I'm curious to see the conclusions on that amp.

Couldn't agree more - Schiit happens, it's really about how you handle it.

[arcman]

On 8/16/2017 at 0:00 AM, schiit said:

 

We don't rate mono into 4 ohms, since it will hit the protection before clipping. Also, if you run high output into 4 ohms mono for long periods of time, you may run into thermal protection as well. The amp is effectively seeing a 2 ohm load in that case.

 

Now, you may never run into the current shutdown or the thermal shutdown (I don't, on Eminent Technology LFT-VIs, which are like 83dB efficient), but also, you might. We prefer to err on the side of under-promising.

 

Also, for most 4 ohm speakers, there's a simple solution: use just one Vidar. It's really fairly underrated in terms of power output, and its fine for most inefficient speakers (it works fine with our Magneplanar 1.7s, for example--and you can contact Magnepan for their own opinion--they heard Vidar on their .7s at the recent LA show and commented favorably.)

 

And, if you want more detail than any sane person would want on the nuts and bolts behind Vidar, I can refer you to the two chapters in the Schiit Happened book on it:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-926#post_12997153

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-1360#post-13508638

 

Hopefully this is permissible. Chris, please feel free to remove these links if this isn't cool, and I'll refrain in the future.

 

Jason, Thanks so much for responding. So I assume I will be ok ordering a Vidar amp and running with my ZU Omen Defs and canare star quad cables about 6 ft long each?  I know I can always return if problem arises

 

 

 

 

 

[lucretius]

On 8/16/2017 at 0:00 AM, schiit said:

We prefer to err on the side of under-promising.

 

I appreciate that! All manufacturers should do the same.

[schiit]

2 hours ago, arcman said:

Jason, Thanks so much for responding. So I assume I will be ok ordering a Vidar amp and running with my ZU Omen Defs and canare star quad cables about 6 ft long each?  I know I can always return if problem arises

 

It shouldn't be a problem. Actually, no cable, cable length, or speaker combo should be a problem, which is why I'm interested in what's happening to Chris's amps. But we use Zu Omens in development, and I believe one of our techs uses Canare Star Quad (from Blue Jeans) on his Vidars.

 

Update on Chris's amps: they've been shipped back to us, together with one of the cables that caused problems. I may miss them, though, since I'm heading out to the eclipse soon and will be away for a few days afterwards. So, to keep things moving, we're shipping another pair of amps to Chris. If those work, I'll see what's wrong with the other pair when I'm back. If they don't, I'll dig into the whole thing when I'm back. But currently, we can't get Vidar to misbehave on any in-house speaker, cable, cable length, or reactive load.

[Zorlac]

My Vidars have never gone into protection mode, but my KEF Q950 speakers had a horrible buzz.

 

Yggy w/Gen5 USB --> Freya --> x2 Vidar --> Blue Jeans 10ft Canare 4S11 w/banana --> KEF Q950

 

Problem persists when unplugging XLR from each Vidar so just speakers and power is on.

Tried a ground lift on the power to eliminate possible ground loop issue.

 

Schiit recommended I get Blue Jeans 5T00UP w/spades. I ended up getting 10ft again and 10AWG. This mostly fixed the buzz. If I put my ear directly to the speaker cone, I still hear it though.

I am hoping this issue is figured out because my OCD is driving me bonkers. I never had this issue with my Ragnarok.

[arcman]

4 hours ago, Zorlac said:

My Vidars have never gone into protection mode, but my KEF Q950 speakers had a horrible buzz.

 

Yggy w/Gen5 USB --> Freya --> x2 Vidar --> Blue Jeans 10ft Canare 4S11 w/banana --> KEF Q950

 

Problem persists when unplugging XLR from each Vidar so just speakers and power is on.

Tried a ground lift on the power to eliminate possible ground loop issue.

 

Schiit recommended I get Blue Jeans 5T00UP w/spades. I ended up getting 10ft again and 10AWG. This mostly fixed the buzz. If I put my ear directly to the speaker cone, I still hear it though.

I am hoping this issue is figured out because my OCD is driving me bonkers. I never had this issue with my Ragnarok.

Oh gee

[rlow]

Could be the tube gain on top of dual monos + high efficiency speakers - a guy named @winders on another forum is having a similar issue I believe with the tube gain in Freya and his very high efficiency speakers...

 

Edit: Nevermind I see you said it even persists after pulling the XLR from Vidars... definitely sounds like an electrical/ground loop issue...

[schiit]

4 hours ago, Zorlac said:

My Vidars have never gone into protection mode, but my KEF Q950 speakers had a horrible buzz.

 

Yggy w/Gen5 USB --> Freya --> x2 Vidar --> Blue Jeans 10ft Canare 4S11 w/banana --> KEF Q950

 

Problem persists when unplugging XLR from each Vidar so just speakers and power is on.

Tried a ground lift on the power to eliminate possible ground loop issue.

 

Schiit recommended I get Blue Jeans 5T00UP w/spades. I ended up getting 10ft again and 10AWG. This mostly fixed the buzz. If I put my ear directly to the speaker cone, I still hear it though.

I am hoping this issue is figured out because my OCD is driving me bonkers. I never had this issue with my Ragnarok.

 

If you're having trouble, contact Nick at [email protected], and we'll get you taken care of.

[Zorlac]

I have been in contact with Nick. He was the one that recommended the different cables. Last I heard he was going to talk to Jason.

Tonight it dawned on me that the Vidars make a buzzing sound when powering them on. Then if you put your ears near the Vidars, you can hear the buzzing. This is almost the exact same buzzing that you can hear coming out of the speaker cones.

[Speed Racer]

6 minutes ago, Zorlac said:

I have been in contact with Nick. He was the one that recommended the different cables. Last I heard he was going to talk to Jason.

Tonight it dawned on me that the Vidars make a buzzing sound when powering them on. Then if you put your ears near the Vidars, you can hear the buzzing. This is almost the exact same buzzing that you can hear coming out of the speaker cones.

 

My Vidar does not buzz. DC offset could be causing the buzz you are hearing. My Vidar is getting its power from an isolation transformer which means there is no DC offset.