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Optane SSD as Boot drive - SQ Nirvana?


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I  don't find anything exciting about 2nd gen Ryzen/X470 or Intel Z390 that's relevant to building a music server.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 6/21/2018 at 1:53 PM, rando said:

A bit early for details on this one. On the face of it you have 4 x M.2 PCIe card with 6 pin power connector that has a massive heatsink covered by a graphics card shroud and fan on the other side (which should be removable).

 

The only problem with this is that it requires bifurcation support to be able to run all 4 NVMe (i.e. the bios/motherboard allows for the PCIe Gen 3 x16 to be split into 4 x4) ... so on most motherboards (except for some Intel x299 or AMD x399), this would only support 1 drive.  (Also there are some Intel z370 based that support x16 to 2 x8) 

 

As a general question, would the thoughts with the 6 pin power connector be to hook it to a linear power supply?  I get using an lps when the alternative is a cheap switching power supply, but a high quality PC power supply that has little ripple (mine has been reviewed at <10 mV at full power, and around 6 mV at normal power usage) 

 

 

 

 

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First off, there are numerous reasons to externally power cards and drives.  Some related to infrastructure and most related to SQ.  The 6 pin is required for full M.2 spec conformity with the amount of power they can draw.  Non-GPU x16 cards are limited to 25 watts which is less than four drives require.  Suffice to say the scope of this thread has expanded slightly beyond Optane as boot drives as the Optane lines and sizes have grown.  4 x 2TB Optane mounted as a single storage drive would not be an issue.  Most here would not put their boot drive on the same card with their storage (unless their was no impact on SQ).  So along with being light on details.  I will note this is not available and retail and was mentioned in a stagnant thread before I forget of it's existence.  For reference at a later date when it might be relevant to our needs.

 

The onus of this thread has been improvements to SQ using Optane as boot drive.  Why a linear power supply works better than even a good PC PSU has been covered many times and should be easily searchable here.  Admittedly you soon get into the point of diminishing returns in this hobby striving for always better sound.  

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52 minutes ago, rando said:

First off, there are numerous reasons to externally power cards and drives.  Some related to infrastructure and most related to SQ.  The 6 pin is required for full M.2 spec conformity with the amount of power they can draw.  Non-GPU x16 cards are limited to 25 watts which is less than four drives require.  Suffice to say the scope of this thread has expanded slightly beyond Optane as boot drives as the Optane lines and sizes have grown.  4 x 2TB Optane mounted as a single storage drive would not be an issue.  Most here would not put their boot drive on the same card with their storage (unless their was no impact on SQ).  So along with being light on details.  I will note this is not available and retail and was mentioned in a stagnant thread before I forget of it's existence.  For reference at a later date when it might be relevant to our needs.

 

The onus of this thread has been improvements to SQ using Optane as boot drive.  Why a linear power supply works better than even a good PC PSU has been covered many times and should be easily searchable here.  Admittedly you soon get into the point of diminishing returns in this hobby striving for always better sound.  

 

I had read the rest of the thread ... and understood where it had been and where it had gone.  A lot of the comments and thoughts in this thread resonate with me.

 

I have been looking to build a new workstation just for music and not really inspired by anything I see (at least not at the level that I want to pay).  I've been researching and can't really find anything in the price range that I am looking for that either supports bifurcation (so I can use a card like what you mention) or more than one NVMe drive.  (For me, I think the PC power supply vs LPS is at the bottom of the list for me in terms of improvements). I am not going for the x299/x399 due to cost being higher than I am willing to spend right now.  I wish the x470 or the z370/390 had more PCIe express lanes for both NVMe, and other additions (like directly connected USB, network or add-on cards to do the same) - all of the boards are focused on gaming/graphics and not the things that I'd like to see.  I was also hoping that Ryzen 2 would be better ... but it sounds like it may not be the best. 

 

I've already got an x399 with a Threadripper 1950x - which is great as there are plenty of PCIe lanes for multiple NVMe (although not separately powered, but connected directly to the CPU) - and also many direct connected USB to the CPU.  Unfortunately, I use it to run a number of VMs and other work - so I can't minimize what runs on it - and I want the VMs running at all times so I don't want to do something like dual boot.  Even so, I am running both boot and music libraries on separate NVMe drives (although not Optanes) and I do believe that it lowers the noise compared with chipset sata attached.  Seems like even if imperfect, this is probably the best system to concentrate my efforts for now. 

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On 6/27/2018 at 2:53 AM, tranfa said:

A question from my side: which version of Windows10 would you install on an Optane SSD?

Anything already optimized?

Any optimization procedure?

 

I would always keep Windows up to date.

Not sure what you mean by anything already optimized.

No real optimization procedure for Optane.  If you use it as the OS drive, just install the OS but make sure to load the drivers during install.  If you use it as memory then you install the Optane application then enable it through the app.

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On 6/4/2018 at 8:50 AM, Johnseye said:

 

I'm currently using Optane as OS where I used SATA II previously.  I'm waiting on a new SATA II filter from SOtM before I compare the two.  I fried my last one.  It will be a couple weeks before I know how they compare.

 

John did you ever get a chance to compare the two?  Did you find a clear preference?

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30 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

 

John did you ever get a chance to compare the two?  Did you find a clear preference?

 

Yes, I finally got a new SATA II filter from SOtM.  As I mentioned, I made a lot of changes to my system.  Waiting for this replacement filter was a good thing because it allowed time for the new components to settle in, and for me to get used to the sound.

 

I immediately noticed a softer, quieter sound when using the Intel X-25 E after using the Optane as an OS drive for several weeks.  The Intel X-25 E drive is being independently powered by an Uptone LPS-1.  My server board is being powered by a Hynes SR-7, but through an HDPlex ATX converter.  How much this power scenario influences the sound is uncertain.

 

This experiment is far from over.  I recently added the Optane drive in as memory.  I'm in the process of A/B'ing the Optane enabled and disabled.  Then I will go back and install Windows directly on to the Optane drive, listen for a couple weeks, then put the X-25 E back in line.  The motherboard and Windows doesn't like me switching between Optane and Intel drives as OS.  Even when I specified it boot from one over the other with both attached as OS drives I would get a BSOD.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Did a search in this topic w/ no results found, so ...

 

I recently acquired an i7-6700k w/ Gigabyte GA-170N-WIFI mobo that has M.2 2280 PCIe SSD capability. Plans are to replace current i5 music server w/ this version & use Optane 32gb for OS & SATA HDD for music files.

 

Only catch is I utilize Linux Ubuntu 16.04 OS w/ HQPlayer for music server. Takes far less space than Win10 (that I currently have as OS for my 32gb mini PC Network Audio Adapter).

 

Google searches seem to indicate it's doable as a UEFI only BIOS boot option. Any input/ comments on utilizing Ubuntu OS in the Optane SSD? 

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  • 1 month later...
6 hours ago, frederick184 said:

Tonight I added an Intel Optane 900P SSD in place of my Samsung 850 Evo SSD for a remarkable improvement in sq.

How were you powering the 850 EVO?

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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Check this out guys...NVME over fiber optic.  Could this improve sound even more by reducing noise?

https://www.itprotoday.com/object-storage/introduction-nvme-over-fabric

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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Drastically expensive corporate server solution.  These articles were spawned by Marvell releasing a new controller intended for EBOF storage appliances inside data centers.  Unless your music needs expand to a Marvell internet switch capable of 2TB/s and this new Marvell controller to create a 150GB/s cloud storage solution.  

 

Eventually something related to this tech will trickle down in the next decade or so.  :)

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  • 6 months later...

Any owners of SSD or NVMe drives that upgraded to Intel Optane 900P drives? I'm interested in replacing a Samsung 850 Evo with a better SSD after discovering that a 5400 RPM SATA drive outperforms it regarding sound quality, but would like to know if it's worth trying out an Optane drive instead of a Samsung's 970 Pro MLC NVMe drive.

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The Intel releases were coming a bit too thick and quick for me to buy in.  Even using an externally powered PCIe card I wouldn't expect increased SQ using a 970 Pro.  Outside the smallest form factor desktops/NUC/laptops M.2 is generally not considered to having benefits that outweigh the less desirable aspects.  Optane being one component in a dedicated computer feeding a highly resolving system it may not have desirable or even any effect you notice.  :)

 

Is your 850 Evo powered by the computer PSU?

Have you tried one of the quite cheap SATA III data cords recommended here?

 

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1 hour ago, rando said:

Is your 850 Evo powered by the computer PSU?

Have you tried one of the quite cheap SATA III data cords recommended here?

Both the SSD and HDD have separate power cables from the computer PSU. As for custom SATA III cords, I haven't tried any yet, although I've heard positive things about the Asus SATA III cords that were supplied with the motherboard that I'm currently using.

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I advise you that is quite far from the position in which the claims in this thread arose from.  Considerable improvements have been wrought in the sources used. 

 

My suggestion is to read broadly on the subject here instead of starting new threads. Much of importance has been covered that could be of use. 

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I have compared NVMe optane 800 drive vs old school intel sata II SSD with a Sotm II sata filter and power to this supplied by external linear PSU.  Comparison was not done in the same system but 2 very similar systems, same motherboard mfg (x370 vs x470 chipsets) same CPU family (Ryzen), same ATX Titanium PSU powering MB and CPU.

 

Both SSD's sounded very good and are a considerable improvement over sata III SSD's such as the samsung you mention above.  I listened for 1 week continuously the Optane 800 drive and was really impressed with it, then I went back to my rig with the Sata II SSD, sotm filter and linear PSU and found the difference not very great.  Further back and forth sessions showed me that the sata II SSD was perhaps a touch more analog like vs the optane SSD, honestly I could live with either one but when I shipped the optane based system to its owner I kept my system as is with the sata II SSD, sotm filter and linear PSU and I have no intention, at least with this server to switch to optane at this time.  Regardless both methods will beat the MLC nand flash that the Samsung uses.

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39 minutes ago, Quadman said:

I have compared NVMe optane 800 drive vs old school intel sata II SSD with a Sotm II sata filter and power to this supplied by external linear PSU.  Comparison was not done in the same system but 2 very similar systems, same motherboard mfg (x370 vs x470 chipsets) same CPU family (Ryzen), same ATX Titanium PSU powering MB and CPU.

 

Both SSD's sounded very good and are a considerable improvement over sata III SSD's such as the samsung you mention above.  I listened for 1 week continuously the Optane 800 drive and was really impressed with it, then I went back to my rig with the Sata II SSD, sotm filter and linear PSU and found the difference not very great.  Further back and forth sessions showed me that the sata II SSD was perhaps a touch more analog like vs the optane SSD, honestly I could live with either one but when I shipped the optane based system to its owner I kept my system as is with the sata II SSD, sotm filter and linear PSU and I have no intention, at least with this server to switch to optane at this time.  Regardless both methods will beat the MLC nand flash that the Samsung uses.

 

My findings were the same.  Using the same server, just between Optane and Intel SATA II with SOtM filter.  SATA II slightly smoother, less edgy or more analog.  Very close though and I could live with either.

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8 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

My findings were the same.  Using the same server, just between Optane and Intel SATA II with SOtM filter.  SATA II slightly smoother, less edgy or more analog.  Very close though and I could live with either.

I am curious. How are you using these storage devices? Have you tried an externally powered multiple nvme pcie card?

 

Over here using a 32 gb Optane for rambooting AL into memory and for a Roon database means very little activity. There doesn't seem to be any noise when idle, so it's hard to justify investing more.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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13 hours ago, lmitche said:

How are you using these storage devices?

 

Larry I am using as OS drives only.  I have not tried the nvme PCIe card as I have a big GPU card sitting there for cuda offload.  Everything I play I upsample to DSD512 and lately have been digging the Closed Form 16M HQP filter which most CPU's will not run without a GPU capable of Cuda offload.

 

As a side note (and off topic) I recently had in my possession a Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series 2 MQA, Robert Harley calls it the best digital he has heard.  I was selling this unit for a friend and of course I had to listen to it PCM at its best and MQA decoding vs. my beloved DSD512.  I also had the Berkeley Alpha USB converter so the PC was completely isolated from the DAC (pc server, USB to Berkeley USB, AES digital to Berkeley Dac).  To my ears there was no comparison, the DSD512 setup just trounced the PCM/MQA of the berkeley dac.  DSD512 is alive I am at the recording there is no stereo in the room just sound, The berkeley, tho very good, made me feel like I was listening to a very good stereo, the audio cliche check list would be there with the berkeley, but the feeling, the involvement with the music was not the same.  My T+A at 512 gives me goosebumps every time I listen to it.  Hence from this experience I decided to stay the high rate upsampling path rather than the low powered Nuc route.

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