T+A DAC8 DSD first impression

[firedog]

20 hours ago, sbenyo said:

I think it's getting better and may even leave to the "hype". I still need more hours and more testing to see how good it gets. It's already seem to start sounding in the "hi-end" arena and I hope it will even get better. I am talking PCM only as I did not test DSD yet. I still look for options to test DSD512 without HQPlay and with direct connection.

 

 

The hype was almost all about how it sounded when fed DSD 512. In terms of PCM, the consensus seems to be that it is a very good DAC, but not exceptional compared to competing DACs. 

[sbenyo]

I have not compared it to top notch DACs in PCM but I can say that after playing for some time and using usb->PUC2 (w. lps) -> AES the PCM performance is wonderful. This completely knocks out my initial impression. 

It is definitely in the highest levels. Even if it is not one of the best or not as good as DSD512 it still holds on its own and I am not very pleased with it. I think PCM on this DAC with the right setup should not be underestimated.

 

[skatbelt]

11 hours ago, Quadman said:

Your quote above has no basis in reality and exaggerates your opinion of the T+A, or DSD512 in general.  I did regularly attend classical concerts at Orchestra Hall in MPLs with Osmo Vanska and before that Eiji Oue conducting. Warm, Congested and smeared sound is the last thing anyone would say listening to 512 in my system or the one I just finished the install in. Just saying.  

 

It is not exaggeration. It is the way I perceive DSD playback in general. And I believe there are a lot of people that think alike. The problem in a lot of discussions about sound quality is that people talk at cross purposes.

[Quadman]

5 hours ago, skatbelt said:

It is the way I perceive DSD playback in general

Well then you need to hear 512 done right.  It does not suck as I say.

[unbalanced output]

On 05/07/2017 at 3:47 PM, sbenyo said:

I just got the hyped T+A DAC8 DSD (second hand).

On 07/07/2017 at 6:34 PM, sbenyo said:

That sounds great . I am sure DSD512 on T+A is amazing as anyone that listened to it says so. I am just happy to hear more and more first had experiences.

I can also say that after more hours of "burn-in" and using good usb connection (PUC2 + AES), PCM also improves a lot and sounds great.

 

Since you bought it used, I would bet your ear had to burn in more than the equipment

 

 

[sbenyo]

It is strange I had "burn-in" time for a used equippment but it was very clear.

I had to switch back to my old DAC to be sure. I only needed a short "burn-in" time so I guess it might have not been used for a while (few month?). I am no expert but it may be related to capacitors charging or something like this.

Anyway it does not matter now. I am happy with the current results. I am even happier with PUC2 in the usb chain (only drawback is 192kHz AES limit).

Now I focus on DSD512 and how to get the best out of it. It seems usb chain is a key.

 

[sbenyo]

After a couple of months playing with it, I am currently settled on PCM with PUC2 lite which gives me a fantastic sound, clear, transparent, balanced, with good lows, mids, highs, and everything seems to be in place.

I did not go for DSD yet as I don't have the right HW to do upsampling.

 

I also got a new ISO REGEN after reading so many good review about it. Unfortunately it does not seem to improve the SQ. Without PUC2 it may have a subtle improvements mainly on the lows. With the PUC2 is does not sound as good. The mids, highs are more veiled and not as clear and without it.

 

It will be hear more experiences with T+A DAC and ISO REGEN.

[lotriwer]

Is there a way to keep it ON all the time? It keeps automatically switching OFF...

[guiltyboxswapper]

1 hour ago, lotriwer said:

Is there a way to keep it ON all the time? It keeps automatically switching OFF...

 

A idle clock-sync'd input will keep it active.  Worth mentioning that when the unit goes into standby, its still keeping the clocks warm at least.

[guiltyboxswapper]

On 19/09/2017 at 9:43 AM, sbenyo said:

After a couple of months playing with it, I am currently settled on PCM with PUC2 lite which gives me a fantastic sound, clear, transparent, balanced, with good lows, mids, highs, and everything seems to be in place.

I did not go for DSD yet as I don't have the right HW to do upsampling.

 

I also got a new ISO REGEN after reading so many good review about it. Unfortunately it does not seem to improve the SQ. Without PUC2 it may have a subtle improvements mainly on the lows. With the PUC2 is does not sound as good. The mids, highs are more veiled and not as clear and without it.

 

It will be hear more experiences with T+A DAC and ISO REGEN.

 

I've tried the Intona units which perform a similar task to the ISO REGENs.  I'm sure there are better units, but fundamentally they're all trying to recover and rebuild from what is potentially a poor timing source to begin with.  If you have the luxury of trying a dedicated USB PCIE card in your setup, do so, the T+A makes the most of it.

[sbenyo]

I talked to Alex from UpTone. He told me to try ISO REGEN without anything else.

I switched from PUC2 to ISO REGEN only and also started to use HQPlayer with optimal settings for PCM upsampling to 384KHz.

 

This gives me great sound. I am still not sure if PUC2 with HQPlayer is better or not but I am currently pleased with the ISO REGEN only setup. I will check again the PUC2 but the advantage of using ISO REGEN only is that I now can upsample to 384KHz and it's not having the "muffled" sound as running together with PUC2.

 

[sbenyo]

I tested both PUC2 and ISO REGEN with HQPlayer. First, it is very clear that HQPlayer is the best way to upsample sound both for PCM and DSD. Both options sound great. PUC2 is more clear with crisp sound and bass less dominant. With ISO REGEN the it is also clear but bass is more dominant. I think both are equal and it's a matter of taste which one is better. It may be that upsampling to 384 vs. the 192 + AES closes the gap of clarity that PUC2 brings.

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

@sbenyo you have tried upsampling to DSD 512?  Roon's upsampling algorithms are far less less CPU intensive and get close (if not quite a HQPlayer replacement) if your PC spec is an issue.  Really worth the effort.  

[Ron Scubadiver]

I can understand why DSD 128 is better than DSD 64.  It moves the ultrasonic output away from the audible band.  Beyond that, I can't understand why DSD 256 or especially DSD 512, for which there is no native content, would provide an audible improvement.

[Allan F]

23 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

I can understand why DSD 128 is better than DSD 64.  It moves the ultrasonic output away from the audible band.  Beyond that, I can't understand why DSD 256 or especially DSD 512, for which there is no native content, would provide an audible improvement.

 

It is related to better digital filtering and noise-shaping in reproducing that content.

[bmoura]

34 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

I can understand why DSD 128 is better than DSD 64.  It moves the ultrasonic output away from the audible band.  Beyond that, I can't understand why DSD 256 or especially DSD 512, for which there is no native content, would provide an audible improvement.

 

DSD 256 recordings definitely have their fans. 

Here's a quote from Thom Moore at 5/4 Productions on why they use DSD 256 vs. DSD 128 for recording in DSD:

 

Quote

 

Thom Moore, the President of 5/4 Productions talked about that company's formation after Telarc Records was purchased by Concord Music Group and the Telarc recording staff created their own company. The Telarc recording staff started working with single rate DSD (DSD64) on a Sonoma DSD Workstation from Sony. After forming 5/4 they acquired a Pyramix system from Merging Technologies and made the first quad rate DSD (DSD256) recording in the world. Moore said 5/4 evaluated double rate DSD (DSD 128) but elected to "skip over it" and go right to quad rate DSD recording after comparing the two formats. He told the audience "Quad DSD is just amazing".

 

Today, Thom Moore, Michael Bishop and Rob Friedrich record a variety of artists and orchestras around the world. They record exclusively in DSD and use their expertise and proprietary systems to create other formats from the DSD recordings. Moore said that 5/4 can make a better sounding 24 bit, 96 kHz music file from the DSD master than if the recording was made in 24/96 in the first place.

 

Moore also noted that 5/4 uses both DSD and Analog Recording systems and techniques. Some sessions can be recorded, balanced and mixed Live to DSD. Other sessions are recorded using Analog systems and are "printed to DSD" as the final step in the recording process. Moore views use and knowledge of Analog recording as an essential ingredient in their work.

 

2

 

.https://positive-feedback.com/Issue79/dsd_panel.htm

[sbenyo]

For now I don't have DSD yet. I am using PCM 384HKz until I can have a good enough computer for DSD.

Regarding Roon vs HQPlayer - It is interesting to know that Roon is close to HQPlayer. I can even get DSD512 from Foobar but I think I will still get a good computer and go with HQP.

 

Unfortunately Roon may be a nice option but it it not cheap.

 

[sbenyo]

I finally built a computer for DSD512. I use HQPlayer with maximum parameters.I also have ISO REGEN.

It does sound better from anything I heard so far but I don't have the complete "WOW" factor others had.

 

It may be that I have to listen more to get see how good it really is. Anyway I am very happy with it as it is now. I am sure it will sound better as I get more used to it.

 

[Ben-M]

On 01/02/2018 at 6:41 AM, sbenyo said:

I finally built a computer for DSD512. I use HQPlayer with maximum parameters.I also have ISO REGEN.

It does sound better from anything I heard so far but I don't have the complete "WOW" factor others had.

 

It may be that I have to listen more to get see how good it really is. Anyway I am very happy with it as it is now. I am sure it will sound better as I get more used to it.

 

What were the specs for your HQPlayer, DSD512 capable at maximum perimeters upsampling computer?

 

I just bought a T+A DAC 8 DSD used as well and need to build a PC for upsampling/fix the one 8 already have. 

[guiltyboxswapper]

On 31/01/2018 at 10:41 PM, sbenyo said:

I finally built a computer for DSD512. I use HQPlayer with maximum parameters.I also have ISO REGEN.

It does sound better from anything I heard so far but I don't have the complete "WOW" factor others had.

 

It may be that I have to listen more to get see how good it really is. Anyway I am very happy with it as it is now. I am sure it will sound better as I get more used to it.

 

 

The DAC responds to really clean USB feeds.  Shockingly so, that it puts it into Chord DAVE category (no kidding).   I still can't believe how well it responded to the JCAT Femto Card.  Even the DAVE benefitted from the JCAT, which surprises me as I just fed the DAVE boring 16/44.1 PCM streams.

 

I'm of the belief that devices such as ISO REGEN cannot fully recover the original timing from the PC USB source to begin with.

 

But as with all things, your mileage may vary depending on the rest of your setup etc.

[mansr]

18 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

The DAC responds to really clean USB feeds.  Shockingly so, that it puts it into Chord DAVE category (no kidding).   I still can't believe how well it responded to the JCAT Femto Card.  Even the DAVE benefitted from the JCAT, which surprises me as I just fed the DAVE boring 16/44.1 PCM streams.

If a DAC "responds" to in-spec changes to the USB signal, it is flawed. Do not buy.

 

18 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

I'm of the belief that devices such as ISO REGEN cannot fully recover the original timing from the PC USB source to begin with.

Thankfully, the USB signal does not carry timing information. Timing is dictated by the local clock in the DAC.

[guiltyboxswapper]

Normal PC's USB can be rather noisy.  Both the DAVE and DAC 8 DSD responded much better to quality USB fed by separate DC power to the dedicated PCIE USB card itself.   

 

According to your logic, both the Chord DAVE and T+A units are faulty... right...

 

Quite well established at this point that a typical PC's USB output is noisy.   

 

Timing can be impacted by packet noise.  See USB eye pattern measurements.

[sbenyo]

Update:

I was mistaken between -2s and non -2s. Non -2s is the better mode. Without -2s the load is much higher.

 

I  can play DSD512 (48x512) only if auto rate family is set. Some files do play without it but some get to100% CPU and stuck.

When it is set everything works properly and CPU level is ~30%

 

I also noticed that both using multicore and Cuda offload should not be fully set. They should be both grayed.

 

With these settings everything works great!

[sbenyo]

[sbenyo]

 

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