T+A DAC8 DSD first impression

[sbenyo]

I just got the hyped T+A DAC8 DSD (second hand). My first impressions are not as good as I expected.
So far I used it for a few hours with PCM only (redbook & hires). It is connected to source using USB and I use the BEZ2 + Wide settings.

The sound seems to be very forward, with mids being too dominant, bass being too heavy and tweeters sound without sparkle. It is as though the sound comes from behind a screen. It sounds dull/muffled and not exciting and even causing some listening fatigue.
It does seem to have a big soundstage and dynamics but it does not have the finesse and sparkle I expected from hi-end DAC. This DAC is compared to very well known and respectable DACs in the market so I was expecting a much more refined result.

As comparsion, my old cheap DAC, EE Minimax plus (with dexa), sounds much more refined and definely not as dull.

I wonder if anyone else has the same impressions and if this is related to burn-in time or anything else I should be aware of.

[ismewor]

DAC8 DSD it need some run-in time for sure. 

[ted_b]

Also, no one here has complimented its PCM side.  It is intended, almost solely, as a DSD512 dac, upsampling EVRYTHING from HQplayer.  To the point where some fans even want T+A to produce a lower cost one without the PCM side.

[sbenyo]

It is clear that DSD512 is the sweet spot but I don't believe a DAC at this level should not sound good enough in PCM.

I am sure it should be at least as good as my old DAC. I hope that it will get much better after a significant run-in.

I also agree that if DSD512 proves superior that will probably won't be any need for using other formats.

 

[eternaloptimist]

My experience with this DAC in PCM is very different. 

I find the sound lovely and balanced, detailed but not fatiguing. 

I have owned multiple quality DACs before and this is the best in PCM. 

 

[sbenyo]

Thanks for the feedback.

I hope that burn-in time will do the trick. I hope to get the same impressions as many others for PCM and better than my old DAC which is pretty good.

I will test DSD512 today to see if the "magic" everyone is talking about happens.

 

 

[juanitox]

and even if you still not like it , it's not a big deal.   that 's why Audio Note , berkeley , ,EMMlabs, Totaldac, MSB etc..  still exist even after the DAC8 was born.  

choose your flavor....

[sbenyo]

I run it for a few more hours and things seem to get better. Bass less dominant/boomy and mid/treble seem to start falling in place and getting more sparkle (less muffled).

I also connected it through the AES connection (using PUC2 lite) which adds more quality to the sound.

I think there is a significant improvement in the right direction. I will run it more and see if it keeps getting better.

I believe that this DAC playing PCM should be at least as good as my older DAC. Sound wise it should play with hi-end sparkle comparable to all DACs mentioned above, no matter if I like the sound characteristics or not.

 

I also tried to play native DSD. I wonder if anyone tried and succeeded in playing DSD256 or DSD512 using foobar2k. It seems no matter how I config it, it only gets as high as 128.

 

 

[skatbelt]

On 7/5/2017 at 3:47 PM, sbenyo said:

I just got the hyped T+A DAC8 DSD

 

Exactly! Hyped = make something sound more interesting or impressive than it is via questionable advertising methods and exaggeration.

[guiltyboxswapper]

32 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

 

Exactly! Hyped = make something sound more interesting or impressive than it is via questionable advertising methods and exaggeration.

To be fair it did leave an Auralic Vega in its trails, and that is one fine DAC in itself, if previous generation.  Even I was suprised by the gap in performance.   

[sbenyo]

I think it's getting better and may even leave to the "hype". I still need more hours and more testing to see how good it gets. It's already seem to start sounding in the "hi-end" arena and I hope it will even get better. I am talking PCM only as I did not test DSD yet. I still look for options to test DSD512 without HQPlay and with direct connection.

 

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

It does have a long break in time - its quiet audible.  PCM is pretty good but as mentioned DSD 512 is when it really takes off due to the discrete very well implemented DSD implementation (one of a kind).  I think only T+A's higher up range uses the same chipless implementations. 

[skatbelt]

4 hours ago, sbenyo said:

I think it's getting better and may even leave to the "hype". I still need more hours and more testing to see how good it gets. It's already seem to start sounding in the "hi-end" arena and I hope it will even get better. I am talking PCM only as I did not test DSD yet. I still look for options to test DSD512 without HQPlay and with direct connection.

 

 

 

I thought you said you bought it second hand so it should already be burned in by now. I heard this DAC and as you experienced yourself, it is underwhelming with PCM. People like it because of it's analog like performance with everything upsampled to DSD512 with HQ-player via it's dedicated DSD electronics. I think this is roughly the same group that like Lampizator (for example). Nothing wrong with these preferences that but be aware that this group is after a warm, congested and smeared sound. If you belong to this group, your investment was probably a good one.

[guiltyboxswapper]

Just now, skatbelt said:

 

I thought you said you bought it second hand so it should already be burned in by now. I heard this DAC and as you experienced yourself, it is underwhelming with PCM. People like it because of it's analog like performance with everything upsampled to DSD512 with HQ-player via it's dedicated DSD electronics. I think this is roughly the same group that like Lampizator (for example). Nothing wrong with these preferences that but be aware that this group is after a warm, congested and smeared sound. If you belong to this group, your investment was probably a good one.

 

Warm congested sound?  Perhaps in your own setup.  It is strangely sensitive to quality USB feeds, though...

[Quadman]

41 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

upsampled to DSD512 with HQ-player via it's dedicated DSD electronics. I think this is roughly the same group that like Lampizator (for example). Nothing wrong with these preferences that but be aware that this group is after a warm, congested and smeared sound. If you belong to this group, your investment was probably a good one.

I just came back from a installation of a new dedicated PC streamer in a friends system and install of a Pass XP-30 line stage preamp.  I brought along my T+A dac so my buddy could hear what 512 was a  about.  The streamer I built him was fully 512 capable and incorporated everything I have learned to date on how to make a great sounding server.  His system is topnotch all the way.  Pass XA-100.8 amps on the mids and highs, Dedicated 250W SS amps on the bass, his custom speakers can play flat down to 25 hz.  His turntable is a SME30MK2 with the top of the line dynavector XV1T cartridge, his phono stage is pass's XP-25.  In this incredible system other than the very best vinyl recordings the T+A at DSD512 crushed the Vinyl in frequencies below 200 HZ.  There was much more apparent dynamics, leading edges were much better defined, the bass line was much more discernible in the T+A than vinyl, (His cartridge was set up by Wally of WAM engineering, in person 1 year ago).  That said when we found those special vinyl recordings the bass on those could equal the bass on the T+A digital.  He was so impressed with the sound that he went online and found a used T+A which he will replace his current DSD256 dac.

 

I have read in many places that DSD512 is soft and rounds dynamics, it is very pleasing to the ears but does not have the jump factor hi-rez PCM, vinyl or reel to reel have.  I don't understand that, I get very dynamic, transparent sound with a stage you can walk around.  The human factor, like vinyl, is very real.  To me DSD512 is MORE  dynamic than most vinyl rigs out there.  Maybe it is the electronics people use, or the servers that is the issue behind the impression that 512 lacks dynamics.  I did find that putting way better PSU's in servers does impact bass response and speed (among other things).  To me if you don't play back digital at DSD512 then I want nothing to do with it.  In DSD512 the music just comes alive like the best analog.  There is no warm, congested and smeared sound in what I hear

[ted_b]

4 minutes ago, Quadman said:

I have read in many places that DSD512 is soft and rounds dynamics, it is very pleasing to the ears but does not have the jump factor hi-rez PCM, vinyl or reel to reel have.  I don't understand that, I get very dynamic, transparent sound with a stage you can walk around.  The human factor, like vinyl, is very real.  To me DSD512 is MORE  dynamic than most vinyl rigs out there.  Maybe it is the electronics people use, or the servers that is the issue behind the impression that 512 lacks dynamics.  I did find that putting way better PSU's in servers does impact bass response and speed (among other things).  To me if you don't play back digital at DSD512 then I want nothing to do with it.  In DSD512 the music just comes alive like the best analog.  There is no warm, congested and smeared sound in what I hear

+1  Me neither, and I'm using the lower cost Holo Audio Spring Kitsune Edition DAC.  I hope to hear a T+A before too long (said with no real hope    ).  My DSD512 presentation, especially now with the ISO Regen, is amazingly dynamic and almost scary real at times.

[sbenyo]

That sounds great . I am sure DSD512 on T+A is amazing as anyone that listened to it says so. I am just happy to hear more and more first had experiences.

I can also say that after more hours of "burn-in" and using good usb connection (PUC2 + AES), PCM also improves a lot and sounds great. The sound is definitely becoming hi-end as I wanted it and I am pleased with it.

I think this DAC has great potential even with PCM much more than the credit it gets. I think people don't give it enough chance in PCM as DSD512 seem to have the "wow" factor over it.

 

I also just started listening to music up-sampled to DSD512 (using foobar2k - not sure it this is the best). It does sound amazing from the little I could test. I will give it much more time and testing before I can get to any conclusions. So far I am impressed and I even take back my initial impression.

 

[Quadman]

18 minutes ago, ted_b said:

My DSD512 presentation, especially now with the ISO Regen, is amazingly dynamic and almost scary real at times.

Although not mentioned in my post above, I too use a iso-regen and it was present at my buddies house.  Tho in in short comparisons between the regen and iso-regen the differences were not night and day (to me), the Iso-regen did make a subtle improvement over the regen.  The SSD and PSU's had a bigger impact on sound.  The pass XP-30 didn't hurt either.

[guiltyboxswapper]

For what its worth I use a JCAT Femto USB card.  Previously i used an intona reclocker w/seperate power supply, which was a good step improvement.  The dedicated USB card with a half decent linear power supply stepped it up again.  Feed it high quality low jitter USB and on a good enough setup, it really shows.  Next stop is waiting for the Linux firmware and then trying an Allo Usbridge in NAA mode.  

[Solstice380]

2 hours ago, sbenyo said:

 

I also just started listening to music up-sampled to DSD512 (using foobar2k - not sure it this is the best). It does sound amazing from the little I could test. I will give it much more time and testing before I can get to any conclusions. So far I am impressed and I even take back my initial impression.

 

 

Many find using HQPlayer or Audirvana for upsampling to be better than foobar.  I use HQP for DSD512 to my Lampizator.  I agree with @Quadman and @ted_b that DSD, and especially higher rate, sounds really good and lifelike.  PCM can have a lot of jump and sizzle that can sound impressive for a while, but then hurts.  Delta/Sigma DAC chips (ESS, AKM, etc) with their internal resampling and filtering typically add preringing that contributes to that.  The chipless DACs when using minimum phase filters for the upsampling don't do that.  

[sbenyo]

If I upscale all to DSD512 what is the best file source I should use?
Since there not so many native DSD512 (didn't see any at all) or even DSD256, I can find some DSD128 or DSD64.

Is it better to upscale DSD to DSD or hires DxD (352kHz) or 192kHz to DSD or even redbook (16/44) to DSD?

 

[Quadman]

I upsample everything, mostly redbook 16/44 vis HQ Player to DSD512.  But all of my higher rez PCM I also upsample to DSD512.

[skatbelt]

6 hours ago, Quadman said:

...

I have read in many places that DSD512 is soft and rounds dynamics, it is very pleasing to the ears but does not have the jump factor hi-rez PCM, vinyl or reel to reel have.  I don't understand that, I get very dynamic, transparent sound with a stage you can walk around.  The human factor, like vinyl, is very real.  To me DSD512 is MORE  dynamic than most vinyl rigs out there.

...

 

This is exactly my point. Your reference is a very high quality vinyl rig. I totally respect that this is the kind of sound that you're after but my opinion is that vinyl and cartridges are per definition (and technically proven) inferior transmitters of musical data. Psychoacoustics let you think you hear life-like sound but reality is you hear something you like, probably far from reality. A good test would be to witness a live recording session of a stringed instrument (a violin or a cello for instance; yes these can sound harsh and unpleasant at times) and compare what you heard live with the reproduction via different formats and DAC's. More simple - and this is my way of doing - is to visit classical concerts on a regular basis and take this as a reference when judging the performance of a DAC. Also a good starting point when judging a DAC is to listen to it via a very good headphone amp/headphone setup. Something fast and electrostatic. Apart from sound staging this gives a very good indication of all quality parameters and it will allow you to exclude the negative aspects of room acoustics.

[Quadman]

7 hours ago, skatbelt said:

Nothing wrong with these preferences that but be aware that this group is after a warm, congested and smeared sound.

Your quote above has no basis in reality and exaggerates your opinion of the T+A, or DSD512 in general.  I did regularly attend classical concerts at Orchestra Hall in MPLs with Osmo Vanska and before that Eiji Oue conducting. Warm, Congested and smeared sound is the last thing anyone would say listening to 512 in my system or the one I just finished the install in. Just saying.  

[bmoura]

4 hours ago, sbenyo said:

Since there not so many native DSD512 (didn't see any at all) or even DSD256, I can find some DSD128 or DSD64.

 

 

There aren't any DSD512 Analog to Digital Converters (ADCs) and Workstations on the market. 

Hence, no native DSD512 releases to date.

 

There are Stereo and Multichannel DSD 256 releases.  

For example, you will find over 135 albums released in DSD256 at NativeDSD Music. 

https://www.nativedsd.com/homepage/quad_dsd_music

 

Other music download sites offer them as well.  

Check the NativeDSD Database for a list of music download sites with DSD 256 downloads. 

http://www.nativedsd.com/database