The Computer Audiophile Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Interesting article about FireWire. I wonder how many of us still use FireWire DACs. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/06/the-rise-and-fall-of-firewire-the-standard-everyone-couldnt-quite-agree-on/ Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
plissken Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Still have an RME FireFace in use with a PCIe FW card. Link to comment
wgscott Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 I almost posted this in the "In Memoriam" sub-forum, but decided that wouldn't be in good taste. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/06/the-rise-and-fall-of-firewire-the-standard-everyone-couldnt-quite-agree-on/ The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
gmgraves Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 15 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Interesting article about FireWire. I wonder how many of us still use FireWire DACs. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/06/the-rise-and-fall-of-firewire-the-standard-everyone-couldnt-quite-agree-on/ I have a FireWire ADC. I've always thought that it worked better than USB 2.0 for as a recording interface. George Link to comment
foodfiend Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Yup, Firewire was always a better technology than USB, but was doomed by wrong decisions. Not only for music, but also for plain data transfer. I certainly hope Thunderbolt won't go that same way... The road to Hell is paved with good intentions... Link to comment
firedog Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 FW was better than USB until a few years ago, when some of the newer USB tech came on the market. I used FW till I tried a few USB "thingys" and they made USB equal or better than FW. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
esldude Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, firedog said: FW was better than USB until a few years ago, when some of the newer USB tech came on the market. I used FW till I tried a few USB "thingys" and they made USB equal or better than FW. I concur. Even with USB 2.0 rarely is there really an advantage of Firewire anymore. I do have a TC Impact Twin Firewire ADC/DAC. Rarely use it now. Would let it go really cheap for such a good device. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Forehaven Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 I went to a friend's place last week and listened to a Weiss 202 fw dac; to say I was impressed is an understatement. A lovely sounding dac though perhaps a bit warm for me. Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's. . Link to comment
Panelhead Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 On 6/24/2017 at 9:48 AM, The Computer Audiophile said: Interesting article about FireWire. I wonder how many of us still use FireWire DACs. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/06/the-rise-and-fall-of-firewire-the-standard-everyone-couldnt-quite-agree-on/ Not currently using one, but still have a couple. I never have tried one of the USB dongles, but FW just seemed to offer better sonics than USB. From an Apogee Duet, TC Impact Twin, and several KRK Ergo's I have been very pleased to stick with FW. Bought a highly specced USB dac with dual 9018 chips, clocks, and naked resistors. The KRK Ergo with some board work easily bested it. Maybe it was the USB implimentation. I saw an update from Metric Halo a long time ago where it said they could get better performance from USB than FireWire. A newer version of their interfaces was right around the corner with USB buss and no FW. They may have been speaking too soon. Now they are working on a TB3. 2012 Mac Mini, i5 - 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM. SSD, PM/PV software, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre 4 channel interface. Daysequerra M4.0X Broadcast monitor., My_Ref Evolution rev a , Klipsch La Scala II, Blue Sky Sub 12 Clarett used as ADC for vinyl rips. Corning Optical Thunderbolt cable used to connect computer to 4Pre. Dac fed by iFi iPower and Noise Trapper isolation transformer. Link to comment
gmgraves Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 On 6/24/2017 at 11:19 PM, foodfiend said: Yup, Firewire was always a better technology than USB, but was doomed by wrong decisions. Not only for music, but also for plain data transfer. I certainly hope Thunderbolt won't go that same way... When High-definition TV was brand-new (circa Y2K), I had a Panasonic 1080 X 1920 high-definition VHS recorder that worked in conjunction with a Panasonic HD "tuner" to allow one to record over-the-air HD broadcasts. It had component outputs (PbPrY) to interface to an HD "ready" TV and a FireWire interface between the tuner and the VHS recorder. The digital playback of the HD recording played the HD tapes back through the tuner to interface with the TV. So the only connection between the recorder and the "monitor" was through the FireWire cable between the tuner and the recorder. BTW, the recorder didn't record video, it only recorded the HDTV data stream. Alas, a voltage surge (caused by a squirrel meeting his maker across the neighborhood pole transformer) sent my mains voltage from the normal 120 vac to over 240 volts early one Sunday morning! It fried my alarm clock, the HDTV tuner, I lost a Phillips video surround processor, a studio JVC S-VHS recorder and a C-band satellite receiver! The electric company compensated me for the losses but I was unable to replace the HDTV VHS system, as Panasonic had stopped making it. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 On 6/24/2017 at 11:55 PM, esldude said: I concur. Even with USB 2.0 rarely is there really an advantage of Firewire anymore. I respectfully disagree. FireWire doesn't require the shenanigans and workarounds that USB has to use in order to get it to work as an acceptable audio transfer medium between computer and DAC (or ADC). Even with Gordon Rankin's "Streamlength" Asynchronous technology, USB still has too much jitter. It's not a matter of bandwidth, it's the way USB handles traffic that is inferior to FireWire. George Link to comment
Panelhead Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 5 hours ago, gmgraves said: I respectfully disagree. FireWire doesn't require the shenanigans and workarounds that USB has to use in order to get it to work as an acceptable audio transfer medium between computer and DAC (or ADC). Even with Gordon Rankin's "Streamlength" Asynchronous technology, USB still has too much jitter. It's not a matter of bandwidth, it's the way USB handles traffic that is inferior to FireWire. I agree George. BJ Burkhalter of Metric Halo told me that every FW interface he has seen streams in Asynchronous protocol. He said it is native. But the huge advantage USB has over FW is that people are still releasing USB buss equipment. I do not know the date of the last FW connected product release. But with FW ports only a memory on new computers there will never be another. My Mini has both FW800 and TB busses. The TB connection with a TB/FW adapter yields better sonics than straight FW. So if someone has a FW interface they like, try on a computer with Thunderbolt buss and the Apple adapter. This will extend the usable life of the interface also. Plus maybe be better performance. Far as I know I am the only poster here using a Thunderbolt connected interface. It is an intermediate step. Waiting for a four channel interface with TB3 connectivity. 2012 Mac Mini, i5 - 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM. SSD, PM/PV software, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre 4 channel interface. Daysequerra M4.0X Broadcast monitor., My_Ref Evolution rev a , Klipsch La Scala II, Blue Sky Sub 12 Clarett used as ADC for vinyl rips. Corning Optical Thunderbolt cable used to connect computer to 4Pre. Dac fed by iFi iPower and Noise Trapper isolation transformer. Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 7 hours ago, gmgraves said: I respectfully disagree. FireWire doesn't require the shenanigans and workarounds that USB has to use in order to get it to work as an acceptable audio transfer medium between computer and DAC (or ADC). Even with Gordon Rankin's "Streamlength" Asynchronous technology, USB still has too much jitter. It's not a matter of bandwidth, it's the way USB handles traffic that is inferior to FireWire. In reasonable DAC implementations, the FireWire, USB or Ethernet packets are accepted using the interface clock and then transferred to a FIFO. The bits are clocked out if the FIFO using the DAC clock. If there are differences in jitter at the DAC latch level, there is another mechanism at play. esldude 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 11 hours ago, jabbr said: In reasonable DAC implementations, the FireWire, USB or Ethernet packets are accepted using the interface clock and then transferred to a FIFO. The bits are clocked out if the FIFO using the DAC clock. If there are differences in jitter at the DAC latch level, there is another mechanism at play. Hi jabbr - Was this true of the early adaptive USB designs? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Hi jabbr - Was this true of the early adaptive USB designs? Haha ... well I carefully qualified my statement with "reasonable DAC implementations" ...but the async USB solves only one class of problem, even if the clock of data coming into a DAC is exactly the same to the nth degree as the clock of the data inside the DAC, there remains the problem that the phase of the clocks is not synchronized and if you try to latch at a signal transition you get garbage (so the clock crossing FIFO is still needed). @Wavelength is obviously the real expert, but what I am saying here should not be controversial ... its really textbook FPGA stuff etc. Its hard to know exactly what is done behind the scenes. People might do stupid stuff that then sounds suboptimal... there are, however, widely known rules of how to cross clock domains, as I said: clock into FIFO and clock out of FIFO and FIFO is made of dual ported memory. So why should interfaces still be an apparently big issue? Are we all in a large collective hallucination as some in the hard core "objectivist" camp believe? I personally believe either of two things: 1) unreasonable implementations are more common than we think 2) there is some other as yet incompletely characterized factor e.g. ways that incomplete domain isolation allow "pollution" from the outside to creep into the DAC clock... (I personally suspect the latter ...) Superdad 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, jabbr said: unreasonable implementations are more common than we think It's amazing how common these "unreasonable" implementations are in the high end marketplace. Some manufacturers that are well respected and have huge followings online of people singing their praises, are actually cobbling things together and moving boxes out the door. I can't name names, but the behind-the-scenes stories are crazy. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
DavidL Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Still using an RME Fireface 400 as the audio interface for my Mac. Performance is fine so feel no urge to replace it. I had to buy a Belkin break-out box to continue using Firewire when I replaced my old Mac Pro with a 5K iMac tho. I no longer use the DAC in the FF400 - I bought a Chord Hugo which is definitely superior. ALAC iTunes library on Synology DS412+ running MinimServer with Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 tablet running BubbleUPnP for control > Hi-Fi 1: Airport Extreme bridge > Netgear switch > TP-Link optical isolation > dCS Network Bridge AND PS Audio PerfectWave Transport > PS Audio DirectStream DAC with Bridge Mk.II > Primare A60 > Harbeth SHL5plus Anniversary Edition . Hi-Fi 2: Sonore Rendu > Chord Hugo DAC/preamp > LFD integrated > Harbeth P3ESRs and > Sennheiser HD800 Link to comment
Popular Post Wavelength Posted June 28, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2017 1 hour ago, jabbr said: Haha ... well I carefully qualified my statement with "reasonable DAC implementations" ...but the async USB solves only one class of problem, even if the clock of data coming into a DAC is exactly the same to the nth degree as the clock of the data inside the DAC, there remains the problem that the phase of the clocks is not synchronized and if you try to latch at a signal transition you get garbage (so the clock crossing FIFO is still needed). @Wavelength is obviously the real expert, but what I am saying here should not be controversial ... its really textbook FPGA stuff etc. Its hard to know exactly what is done behind the scenes. People might do stupid stuff that then sounds suboptimal... there are, however, widely known rules of how to cross clock domains, as I said: clock into FIFO and clock out of FIFO and FIFO is made of dual ported memory. So why should interfaces still be an apparently big issue? Are we all in a large collective hallucination as some in the hard core "objectivist" camp believe? I personally believe either of two things: 1) unreasonable implementations are more common than we think 2) there is some other as yet incompletely characterized factor e.g. ways that incomplete domain isolation allow "pollution" from the outside to creep into the DAC clock... (I personally suspect the latter ...) Jonathan, Actually phase has nothing to do with any of these interfaces. USB, Asynchronous only is used as a flow control to assure the data at the endpoint does not over or underrun. The data is received as samples and then the selected Master Clock streams out the data I2S to the dac chip. Since the Master Clock is the same at the DAC and the interface, then phase is not an issue. Ethernet (networking same for WIFI) UDP frames are received by the endpoint and control frames are sent back to the server and this acts as flow control between the host and the endpoint. Then again the same thing happens as above... The data is received as samples and then the selected Master Clock streams out the data I2S to the dac chip. Since the Master Clock is the same at the DAC and the interface, then phase is not an issue. Firewire audio is only asynchronous if you are using the Metric Halo stuff, otherwise it is using a PLL, usually the good JET PLL, but none the less it is a PLL and that varied derived Master Clock is used for flow control of the data from the host to the endpoint. ~~~ There is all kinds of pollution that effects digital stuff. One of the reasons why I developed the JitterBug. It wasn't to get rid of audio interference it was to get rid of the noise that effects digital circuits. Well one of the 3 reasons. Digital noise can effect the lower digits on any converter, this is why signal to noise ratio is different from vendor to vendor even when using the same DAC chip. There are a boat load of reasons and a band of noise that can effect this. Take for instance DSP's, FPGA's, CPU's that use a PLL's to function as working clocks. PLL will create ground noise that can effect the way the DAC chip performs. A long time ago... 1986-87, I designed a SPDIF DAC with two DSP processors. They used a PLL to basically create parallel processing. Well believe me it took six months to get that sucker working as that noise was really throwing things off. This is a big subject to tackle on a forum. Everyone is going to have their own experiences, reading of XYZ, thoughts etc... Really don't get all focused on stuff like this, unless your designing real products and then you can tackle these problems one at a time. Thanks, Gordon jabbr and Superdad 2 J. Gordon Rankin Wavelength Audio http://www.usbdacs.com/ http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/ http://www.guitar-engines.com/ Link to comment
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