Why Do People Come To Computer Audiophile To Display Their Contempt For Audiophiles?

[beerandmusic]

25 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

You'd be another perfect candidate for my vinyl dual output with one through 16/44 ADA loop comparison.

Funny stuff. 

Of course, predominantly TEST B will be better than TEST A...plus the buzz gets better as the day goes on.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

So we’ve got a couple of articles saying there are problems with bias in sighted tests

The gist is that controlled (Blind) testing is the de facto scientific valid standard for all audio, not just electro-acoustic widget audiophoolery

[esldude]

19 minutes ago, Dragonfyr said:

Explain this method and why it's relevant? What does it prove? 

That a preferred vinyl recording could go thru an AD/DA stage and sound the same as if it didn't. So any preference one had for vinyl is not due to vinyl being a more accurate medium.

 

The method is to have the direct phono preamp output, and an ADA stage signal to switch between and compare.

[Dragonfyr]

4 minutes ago, esldude said:

That a preferred vinyl recording could go thru an AD/DA stage and sound the same as if it didn't. So any preference one had for vinyl is not due to vinyl being a more accurate medium.

Yes I know. I was on a fishing expedition for my amusement.  No need for me to continue the charade. 

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, Dragonfyr said:

Yes I know. I was on a fishing expedition for my amusement. No need to continue the charade. 

who says you can decide when the amusement is over.

[Dragonfyr]

4 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

who says you can decide when the amusement is over.

Audiophiles are an endless source of amusement for me and I'm sure for many others as well. Comedy gold.

[firedog]

30 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

So you are saying you couldn't tell the difference between 128Kbps MP3 and 24/192 blind. Good to know.

As usual putting words in people's mouths, just to be argumentative. 

You really need to get over yourself. 

[jabbr]

15 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

The gist is that controlled (Blind) testing is the de facto scientific valid standard for all audio, not just electro-acoustic widget audiophoolery

I don't think it goes far enough ... the "Tommy" test is definitive.

[plissken]

Just now, firedog said:

As usual putting words in people's mouths, just to be argumentative. 

You really need to get over yourself. 

 

I'm pointing out a piece of logic you are sorely missing. If I was to perform a large blinded study should I include people that couldn't hear the difference between 320Kbps MP3 and 24/192 or DSD 128?

[Dragonfyr]

Did anyone watch this excellent video? 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqJmqhu2ga0

[AJ Soundfield]

18 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Of course, predominantly TEST B will be better than TEST A...plus the buzz gets better as the day goes on.

 

No labels, just tell me which is vinyl when playing

[plissken]

4 minutes ago, Dragonfyr said:

Audiophiles are an endless source of amusement for me and I'm sure for many others as well. Comedy gold.

 

Apparently because they are soft targets it's not welcome here. Not sure what kind of position the subjectivists needs to take for debate and dialectic with them to be kosher at CA.

[AJ Soundfield]

14 minutes ago, esldude said:

The method is to have the direct phono preamp output, and an ADA stage signal to switch between and compare.

Yep, real time on the fly clicks, pops, everything comparison. Loads of fun with vinylphiles and digital-creates-drama-philes

[firedog]

47 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w5903

http://www.upworthy.com/this-orchestras-blind-audition-proves-bias-sneaks-in-when-you-least-expect-it

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

I'm not.

A victim of my education and non-audiophile as is currently popular status. YMMV

Looked at your links. Only the third, about the Strad, has any actual validity to what I was referring to, and is the same type of listening test. 

 

I'm not talking about a professional musician auditioning other musicians, I'm referring to some small difference we strain to hear in audiophile testing. Like does  USB device A sound better than USB device B. I doubt the conductor, first violinist, or orchestra administrator auditioning a violinist feels the kind of stress I referred to. It's a different type of listening, IMO. And the better trained your ear is to hear the type of differences you are listening for, the easier and less pressured it is. 

 

Not trying to say DBT pr BT has no validity. But not every test is the best test for each situation. 

[plissken]

1 minute ago, firedog said:

Looked at your links. Only the third, about the Strad, has any actual validity to what I was referring to, and is the same type of listening test. 

 

I'm not talking about a professional musician auditioning other musicians, I'm referring to some small difference we strain to hear in audiophile testing. Like does  USB device A sound better than USB device B. I doubt the conductor, first violinist, or orchestra administrator auditioning a violinist feels the kind of stress I referred to. It's a different type of listening, IMO. And the better trained your ear is to hear the type of differences you are listening for, the easier and less pressured it is. 

 

Not trying to say DBT pr BT has no validity. But not every test is the best test for each situation. 

You are missing the point about bias controlled evaluation. Sorry you don't get to pick and choose here.

[firedog]

Just now, AJ Soundfield said:

Yep, real time on the fly clicks, pops, everything comparison. Loads of fun with vinylphiles and digital-creates-drama-philes

I've heard and read about demonstrations where a good digital transcription of an LP or tape can't be differentiated from the source-when played back over the same system.

John Atkinson famously wrote that he listened to 192k  digital transcriptions of from the Ayre QA9 ADC, and couldn't tell the difference from the source, even though he tried till his "ears bled".

I think my present ADC setup is much the same. 

Whenever someone tells me how much better digital is than vinyl, that's the challenge I give them. If vinyl is superior and digital inferior, a digital transcription couldn't reproduce the "vinylness" enough to fool anyone.

[firedog]

5 minutes ago, plissken said:

You are missing the point about bias controlled evaluation. Sorry you don't get to pick and choose here.

Not missing the point at all. You are.

[plissken]

Just now, firedog said:

Not missing the point at all. You are.

 

You are missing the point that peoples sighted bias affects choices that have zero to do with sight.

 

What point am I missing?

[beerandmusic]

14 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

No labels, just tell me which is vinyl when playing

I am certain that i would not be able to tell the difference, and would only have a 50-50 chance of picking the correct one....unless i was looking at your eyes...then my odds would go up about 5%...if the vinyl was B, then my odds would go way up (i will always pick B on any future test).

[AJ Soundfield]

1 minute ago, firedog said:

Looked at your links. Only the third, about the Strad, has any actual validity

Wrong. They are all valid audio tests. All highlight why sighted, uncontrolled "listening" create purely biased, invalid results for audio.

 

Quote

I'm referring to some small difference we strain to hear in audiophile testing.

What differences? That is purely presumptive and fallacious. It's wishful thinking that the "small" differences are "audio" real, thus must be then tested.

 

Quote

Like does  USB device A sound better than USB device B. I doubt the conductor, first violinist, or orchestra administrator auditioning a violinist feels the kind of stress I referred to.

There is zero "stress" in sitting on ones posterior listening to music.

The only "stress" is looking the total fool when the audio results show squat. If that's the case, then yes, audiophiles should indeed avoid/evade reality tests at all cost.

 

Quote

Not trying to say DBT pr BT has no validity. But not every test is the best test for each situation. 

Correct. As I've said numerous times, if you want to find out whether you prefer a watch or a USB widget, no test is needed at all.

Tests are only needed for objective verification, of things like sound, or audio, or speed, weight, etc. All objective measures.

[firedog]

14 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I'm pointing out a piece of logic you are sorely missing. If I was to perform a large blinded study should I include people that couldn't hear the difference between 320Kbps MP3 and 24/192 or DSD 128?

Depends what you are trying to show.

It's been demonstrated that people can learn to become better listeners. Look at all the Harman research.That includes learning to accurately tell the difference between mp3 and higher res media.

 

So in your study are you trying to show that a random sample of the general public can or can't hear something? Or find out whether "trained listeners" can hear something?

[firedog]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

You are missing the point that peoples sighted bias affects choices that have zero to do with sight.

 

What point am I missing?

I understood that long before I ever heard of you. 

[AJ Soundfield]

5 minutes ago, firedog said:

Whenever someone tells me how much better digital is than vinyl, that's the challenge I give them.

Good luck getting them to take that challenge. Incredibly "stressful" listening to music sitting on ones arse.

Or so I'm told...

[plissken]

1 minute ago, firedog said:

Depends what you are trying to show.

It's been demonstrated that people can learn to become better listeners. Look at all the Harman research.That includes learning to accurately tell the difference between mp3 and higher res media.

 

So in your study are you trying to show that a random sample of the general public can or can't hear something? Or find out whether "trained listeners" can hear something?

 

I'm replying to your USB A / USB B testing and differences and how blind/bias controlled evaluation isn't applicable.. I'm not drawing this stuff out in crayon for you. You wanted to get into this with. Figure it out on your own.

[christopher3393]

47 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Apparently because they are soft targets it's not welcome here. Not sure what kind of position the subjectivists needs to take for debate and dialectic with them to be kosher at CA.

 

How about starting here?

"4. Individually, remember to stay gracious"  ---Archimago, "On Being an Audiophile, Rationality, and Respectability (Thoughts on the Hardware Audiophile Hobby)"

he also writes: "Mature people discuss things calmly."

 

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/05/musings-on-being-audiophile-rationality.html

 

"Debate and dialectic" is something we could discuss, what they are and what are good rules of thumb for practice. I'm curious what you mean by those terms  and how you have learned these practices. It has been my impression that your understading of what is meant by them may be a bit subjectively biased toward your own preferred approach, but I could be wrong.

 

I've practiced debate formally. I'm sure others have here as well. I'm not sure that this type of debate is what we want here. Debate has its place when needed, as does dialectic, which I'd at least like to think that I've studied i(and attempted to practice) in some depth. I would prefer a more conversational approach generally for this forum, but am open to exploration.