Why Do People Come To Computer Audiophile To Display Their Contempt For Audiophiles?

[jabbr]

13 minutes ago, Daudio said:

I miss Barry, he was deeply experienced and knowledgeable, happy to share, a true audiophile, and a true gentleman. He graciously helped me get started with DIY vibration isolation, and always a pleasure to talk with.

 

Entirely agree!

[esldude]

51 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

There will always be people who adhere to the plainly ridiculous.  Other than putting in a couple of words to prevent plain misinformation going uncorrected, drawn out arguments with these folks just give them an excuse to continue.

 

So why dwell on them?  Is that what you’d tend to do at a local bar or club?  I think you and just about all the rest of us would gravitate toward friendly chats with folks we like, or best of all, folks we like who can teach us about stuff we want to learn.

My complaint is not that there are people who disagree or have another opinion.  My complaint is when a large enough number of people simply retreat to "I hear" and nothing you can say, do or demonstrate trumps the craziest of ideas, then there is no area of common ground left.

 

So sure if at local bar or club I would end up chatting with people who would be interesting to be around.

 

On the other hand, going into a country and western themed bar knowing how much I generally abhor country music might not be a smart choice as to where to go.  Going into a  bar where most of the patrons wish to drink, and get into a refreshing bar fight before the night ends also is not a wise choice (for me).  Either of those could still have some worthwhile people in them.  Just not a high probability of being happy with either of them.   So if you end up in such a place it probably is wise to recognize the kind of place it is and mosey on down the road to a different place.

[vmartell22]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

Seen a lot of this lately, so just wonderin’.

 

Because that is where the audiophiles are...

 

v

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Willie Sutton?

[Daudio]

41 minutes ago, esldude said:

My complaint is when a large enough number of people simply retreat to "I hear" and nothing you can say, do, or demonstrate trumps

 

Then maybe you, and they, would be better off if you didn't say anything, rather then getting into peoples faces, as is your habit.

 

 

41 minutes ago, esldude said:

Going into a  bar where most of the patrons wish to... get into a refreshing bar fight...

 

Funny you should use that example, considering your pugilistic online style

 

[esimms86]

55 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

 To be a bit flip - testosterone poisoning !

Otherwise, a campaign of arguing an indefensible position, thru many posts with raising intensity of ad hominem attacks and invective...

Barry simply stopped posting after a while, and I think you can still see the date of his last post by searching for member 'bdiamont'. I could probably find the old thread if necessary.

 

I miss Barry, he was deeply experienced and knowledgeable, happy to share, a true audiophile, and a true gentleman. He graciously helped me get started with DIY vibration isolation, and always a pleasure to talk with. Worth a 1000 of the usual CA rif raf

 

IIRC Barry bowed out saying something like, "Life is too short to spend time arguing with strangers over the internet." He similarly left the Steve Hoffman Forums.

 

Come to think of it,  I haven't seen tailspn post in quite awhile either.

 

We should direct  anyone with complaints to Steve Guttenberg  who has publicly embraced his inner audiophile.

[Northern_Canuck]

I have been following CA for years and have learned a lot from many of the posters - thank you!

 

BTW - Does CA offer a filter to block specific users posts? Now that would be very useful addition to create your own "Troll Filter"

[sdolezalek]

Jud: I cannot help but wonder how much the overall business model is at fault.  There is no question that more controversial threads get more attention than the less argumentative ones, and more input ultimately means more site traffic, which means more ad revenue. You can't blame Chris for that, it is true of the entire Internet experience.  It is just that our version of "fake news" is largely unrecognizable by the general public, but it does not mean we lack all the same characters that populate Facebook, Twitter, etc.  

 

Chris could move to a subscription model and make choices that would really cut back on the useless posts, character assasinations, baseless challenges, useless contributions, etc., but I'm just not sure whether there is enough true substance and true new information to keep us coming back, even in a free model, never mind one we have to pay for.  Truth is we can't help watching the spectacle of a good fight, even if it results in good people choosing not to repeat the experience.  

 

After all, we can all choose not to respond to any inflammatory posts and the thread will quickly die its own boring death.  But that isn't what we do.  We engage and the more we engage, the more we encourage those who would bait, trade, ridicule or belittle us.  It's a human tendency we can't seem to resist.  Not one I like, but I I'm trying to learn how to live with.  

 

I dont know of a better model model anyone else has adopted that results in a winning combination of lots of content and little needless fighting.  Would love to hear of examples though.

[The Computer Audiophile]

15 minutes ago, Northern_Canuck said:

I have been following CA for years and have learned a lot from many of the posters - thank you!

 

BTW - Does CA offer a filter to block specific users posts? Now that would be very useful addition to create your own "Troll Filter"

 

We've had this for many years. Now you can even ignore certain topics / threads. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Well said @sdolezalek

 

It's a constant balance.

[Daudio]

9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It's a constant balance.

 

I believe that some delegated moderation authority, coupled with some easily accessible posting guidelines could help shift that balance considerably to the positive side.

 

While one could argue that doing so would decrease postings by cooling off the flame wars, I know that a lot of people would feel more free to post without fear of being attacked, so the result would be about even, at least, but probably a longer term increase in traffic as lurkers ventured out of cover, and the word got around that CA is a better place to hang out, and returned, or joined anew.

 

Actually I've had many CA folks tell me by PM that they don't post because of the highly combative environment in the forums 

 

And us CA old-timers recall a lot of folks we just don't see any more (some thankfully , some not) who may have moved on for other reasons, but some we know, or suspect, left for the reasons we're discussing in this thread 

 

I truly hope the CA posting environment gets better soon, because it's really the pits now

 

[Ralf11]

if you think this is a highly combative environment, do not visit a sports car forum

[jabbr]

13 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

if you think this is a highly combative environment, do not visit a sports car forum

The less purely objective differences there are, the more emotional people get  

 

been to to a football game recently?

[wgscott]

There does seem to be an overall degradation of the quality of discourse, at least in the US.  There is far too much emphasis on identifying with a team (or political party) and scoring cheap shots, and far too little honest deliberative discourse.  I would much rather learn something new, rather than be right about some trivial point.  There was a grain of truth in my earlier snarky comment -- those guys won't learn anything from each other because they are all in agreement.  If you can learn something new and different from someone who has an opposite point of view, it seems like everyone comes out better for it.  But you don't get that unless you have an honest exchange of viewpoints.  Disagreements about facts are fine.  Disagreements that come down to partisan identity BS gets us nowhere. That's why I find labels like "objectivist" or "subjectivist" counterproductive.

[rando]

I've always felt off put there are so many unheard, unplayed, unrecorded, and unrecognized composers in our long history of music.  The sad truth is bitter sweetness makes a better initial sell than a subtle sweetness that is not always there nor appearing as a comely effervescence which fades in and out.  A night on bare mountain envisioning dark evil spirits in musical form a risque undertaking sure to be more popular than a common mountain dweller's daily return to his cabin blind to all but the most immediate of beauty that surrounds him as he buries his chin against the onslaught of the winds.  

 

When this place can withstand a withering piece of humor by recognizing it as a withering piece of humor, it will be on the right track.  Being selective of who has a voice yet welcoming to new ones, on the internet, just isn't feasible right now.  So other staples of human interaction need to be recruited.  If revolution means finding good to dwell upon it doesn't stop being a revolution.  That has less to do with currying favor from screen names with a cabal of followers than setting a few known divisive topics aside until a later date.  Hopefully a time when an all out war is less desired than a vigorous clearing of the air.  Numerous people have stated numerous ways that everyone laying down their arms would effect a very positive change in the current climate of amelioration.

 

I've found need to express this numerous times in life recently.  

 

Respectfully, chill out.  Everyone.

[Sam Lord]

5 hours ago, jabbr said:

What I've also seen is that certain folks who are industry experts have been aggressively chased off the site -- is this related?

 

(eg @alfe and did @bdiament just get tired of us?)

 

You're working in the industry now, right?  I greatly appreciate your posts, especially addressing the very dense DAC architecture questions, etc.

 

5 hours ago, Daudio said:

 

No, he was driven off by @YashN. I witnessed the whole ugly business

 

 

5 hours ago, Daudio said:

I miss Barry, he was deeply experienced and knowledgeable, happy to share, a true audiophile, and a true gentleman. He graciously helped me get started with DIY vibration isolation, and always a pleasure to talk with. Worth a 1000 of the usual CA rif raf

 

 

Yeah, Barry was a bright star around here.  I'd like to hear more from mitchco in the forums, but I'm very happy Chris has taken him on for articles.  Well done!

 

5 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Gee thanks!

 

I was going to say the same thing, that the open-yet-cautious-minded folk are just toast.  Sorry Jud, you must take the fall for the rest of us, miss you buddy!  Seriously, I think you handle the dubious claims and careless dismissals as well as anyone on the forum.   

 

4 hours ago, esimms86 said:

Come to think of it,  I haven't seen tailspn post in quite awhile either.

 

He's back!  Busy man though, so give him upvotes when he posts!

 

Oops, I wanted to put the below comment on top, but anyhow...

This topic is the reason I use my full, real name.  I do it everywhere except skiing forums, where travel security makes it unsafe.  It makes you deal with mistakes, which is terribly humbling.  I like forums such as Pro Recording Workshop where it is a rule.  You can have monikers, but your real name must appear on your public profile.  I'm not saying Chris should implement the requirement here, but it's reasonable to demand it from people whose posts border on abuse, or spread disinformation.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, wgscott said:

There does seem to be an overall degradation of the quality of discourse, at least in the US.  There is far too much emphasis on identifying with a team (or political party) and scoring cheap shots, and far too little honest deliberative discourse.  I would much rather learn something new, rather than be right about some trivial point.  There was a grain of truth in my earlier snarky comment -- those guys won't learn anything from each other because they are all in agreement.  If you can learn something new and different from someone who has an opposite point of view, it seems like everyone comes out better for it.  But you don't get that unless you have an honest exchange of viewpoints.  Disagreements about facts are fine.  Disagreements that come down to partisan identity BS gets us nowhere. That's why I find labels like "objectivist" or "subjectivist" counterproductive.

 

If I could like this 20 times under the forum rules, I would.  Nailed it (here *and* elsewhere).

[wdw]

sometimes it appears this site has slowly gained the apperance of a bunch of guys in a park, on a bench playing checkers...the topics are often more click bait than useful.

ya, I think we're not talking about audio enough...(post number 22,879)..,your move

well, but those guys with their usb delusions really get to me...(post 12879)...your move

[mansr]

I find the nastiest language coming from "true believers" belittling those of us who favour a scientific/engineering approach to obtaining good sound. I'm talking about the "you're just jealous because you can't afford the fancy cables," "if you can't hear it your system, your ears, and your dog are rubbish," etc.

[Jud]

10 hours ago, esldude said:

My complaint is not that there are people who disagree or have another opinion.  My complaint is when a large enough number of people simply retreat to "I hear" and nothing you can say, do or demonstrate trumps the craziest of ideas, then there is no area of common ground left.

 

So sure if at local bar or club I would end up chatting with people who would be interesting to be around.

 

On the other hand, going into a country and western themed bar knowing how much I generally abhor country music might not be a smart choice as to where to go.  Going into a  bar where most of the patrons wish to drink, and get into a refreshing bar fight before the night ends also is not a wise choice (for me).  Either of those could still have some worthwhile people in them.  Just not a high probability of being happy with either of them.   So if you end up in such a place it probably is wise to recognize the kind of place it is and mosey on down the road to a different place.

 

Interesting that after a recently locked thread, I heard from "objectivists" who talked about how much the thread was veering off the rails into fantasy-land, and "subjectivists" who felt folks who wanted to give some credence to anecdotal listening impressions were really getting it in the neck in that thread.

 

This is what happens when, instead of offering up information for those who might choose to take it in, we treat posts as "first downs" or "scores" for the "other team."  If you look at things that way, there are plenty of folks on both sides and neither side is ever going to win, so you're doomed to dissatisfaction.  On the other hand, it also means there are plenty of folks who *are* ready to listen to you.

 

Face it folks, there are going to be precious few if any Road to Damascus moments here, where someone drops to his or her electronic knees and types "The scales have fallen from mine eyes!"  It doesn't work like that here, and hardly ever does anywhere.  More often, people slowly come to understand that you may have something worthwhile to say, if you try to be factual (whether that is about your anecdotal experience or engineering or scientific facts), respectful, and even possibly helpful.  (Sometimes folks can try to be helpful in a less than respectful way, then wonder why their suggestions aren't taken up more readily, which reminds me of Mark Twain's remarks about the missionaries who brought civilization to the savages of the Hawaiian Islands, thus helping them to see the disadvantages of running around in a perfect climate nearly naked, versus the advantages of wearing dark wool suits and dress shoes.)  There was at least one recent thread about grounding methods where I was very grateful that @Speedskater chimed in to help keep people from experimenting in such a way as to possibly fry themselves.  Some people may have taken this as raining on their experimental parade, but I reckon a live experimenting audiophile is better than a dead 'un.

[pkane2001]

Quote

Why Do People Come To Computer Audiophile To Display Their Contempt For Audiophiles?

 

I'm fairly new to this site, but have been an audiophile for over 25 years (CA for less than a year). What bothers me is not so much the 'contempt for audiophiles' (I don't really see that) but the nearly automatic personal attacks coming from just a few individuals. I've encountered them nearly in every topic I care about, and they seem to start out immediately on the attack, bypassing civil discussion, and almost immediately descending into personal. 

 

I put two of the more aggressive offenders on my ignore list, and I have to say that I now have a much more enjoyable and peaceful time reading CA forums. I highly recommend this feature!

[Jud]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

I put two of the more aggressive offenders on my ignore list, and I have to say that I now have a much more enjoyable and peaceful time reading CA forums. I highly recommend this feature!

 

Yup, that works - oh wait, maybe you're not seeing this.... 

 

I have very few people on my ignore list and always regret putting folks there, in contrast to @wgscott, who takes a savage personal glee in it! 

[pkane2001]

Just now, Jud said:

 

Yup, that works - oh wait, maybe you're not seeing this.... 

 

I have very few people on my ignore list and always regret putting folks there, in contrast to @wgscott, who takes a savage personal glee in it! 

 

Jud, I see all your posts and enjoy them, even if I don't always agree. You'd be the last person I'd put on my ignore list

 

[Jud]

16 minutes ago, mansr said:

I find the nastiest language coming from "true believers" belittling those of us who favour a scientific/engineering approach to obtaining good sound. I'm talking about the "you're just jealous because you can't afford the fancy cables," "if you can't hear it your system, your ears, and your dog are rubbish," etc.

 

I would guess that both overall and among the more frequent posters, more people on the site would identify toward the "subjectivist" than the "objectivist" end of the spectrum.  So I do think it's especially incumbent on the subjectivist folks not to turn defensive when posts they feel are "objectivist" are put up.

 

But for all of us, becoming defensive simply means we become two camps lobbing arguments at each other over the castle walls, not people having a discussion that can result in folks learning things they didn't know before.  Having helpful facts is important, but presentation is as well.  There are folks who've been here a long time who have quite a sardonic sense of humor, and if they suddenly changed that I'd wonder if something was wrong.  But not everyone can bring that off.

[realhifi]

12 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Helpful, yes.  I do think there’s been a proliferation of the “audiophiles are suckers” meme lately.

 

Agreed.